Unmasked by the Marquess

Show Notes

The first in the regency imposter series by Cat Sebastian, the book centers on a romance between Alistair de Lacey and Mr. Robert Selby. As their relationship progresses, we learn Mr. Robert Selby was born Charity Church. For her own reasons she’s put on the Robert Selby persona but she’s not a woman dressing as a man, only. In this episode, the rakes discuss historical accuracy, the importance of names, the most romantic crime (property fraud obviously), acknowledging family, and why we love starchy characters becoming unstarched.

Books From This Episode

Unmasked by the Marquess by Cat Sebastian

Velvet Song by Jude Deveraux

A Lady Awakened by Cecilia Grant

A Christmas Gone Perectly Wrong by Cecilia Grant

An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole

References

“Female-centered historical novels are dogged by questions of accuracy. Hence the author’s note.” by Vanessa Riley

PageMelt video about An Extraordinary Union

“Historical Accuracy, Racism, Courtney Milan, and The Duke Who Didn’t Conform to Genre Norms” by Larua Vivanco

Transcript

Emma: Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that faked its own death only to return as a marchioness.

I’m Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the substack, Restorative Romance.

Beth: I’m Beth and I’m on booktok under the name bethhaymondreads.

Chels: My name is Chels, I’m the writer of the romance Substack The Loose Cravat, a romance book collector, and BookToker under the username chels_ebooks.

Unmasked by the Marquess is the first in the regency imposters series by Cat Sebastian. Published in 2018, we follow a romance between the titular marquess, Alistair de Lacey, and Mr. Robert Selby. As quick repartee and lingering glances turn into something more, Alistair discovers Robert Selby’s secret: that Robert Selby was born Charity Church. She took on the Robert Selby persona first to attend Cambridge at the original Robert Selby’s insistence, and then later to provide for Robert’s sister, Louisa’s, future. Charity, in the guise of Robert, and Louisa attend London for Louisa’s first season, hoping her beauty will draw someone to secure her financial future. Then Charity will let the estate pass to the rightful heir.

On the surface, this story reads as a woman dressing as a man for good, if not entirely legal, reasons. Sebastian explores beyond this initial set up into Charity’s genuine self. When she discloses to Alistair her status as foundling, he replies that she’s like changeling: a fairy left in place of a human child. She thinks to herself: “A changeling. She liked the sound of that, as silly as it was. She had been in-between for so long. Neither man nor woman, neither servant nor gentlefolk. Neither fraud nor honest.”

Alistair, for his part, is pretty settled in his sexuality--a long bachelor, he is comfortable articulating attraction to both men and women, assuming that he would marry someday. His quandary centers the precarious nature of his wealth and position, especially if he falls for Charity as Robert. He has had to work hard to make his estate profitable, which was in debt when he took over the position.

While Alistair and Charity fall quickly, they can’t just be together. Alistair refuses to call Charity his mistress for his own reasons, and Charity doesn’t want to give up who she is as Robert Selby. Plus, there’s an ever-looming threat Louisa could come under fire for her complicity in the fraud.

So how did everyone hear about this book? Was it from Chels?

[LAUGHTER]

Beth: Maybe kind of from Chels? I don’t even know when Cat Sebastian came into my orbit?

She's pretty popular on…she's a pretty popular author. I don't want to give TikTok the claim.

Emma: I feel like I, this is my first Cat Sebastian book, but I feel like I've known her books because she consistently has really good covers. Like her covers are always very compelling, and they have some of…even my favorite, like illustrated covers, I think, like the Marian Hayes has a really cute illustrated cover.

So I like that they're very dynamic. So I was very aware of the covers even before I read this book. But probably from Chels.

Chels: I heard about it from me as well. Just kidding! I think I just got it from my library in like 2020. I got The Soldier’s Scoundrel and kept reading because they're all very good.

Beth: They are. We shouldn't dive too deep into a discussion. I feel like we're good, but I'll recount the plot so everyone can be on the same page.

Alistair de Lacy receives a visit from his late father’s mistress, Mrs. Allenby. She asks Alistair to invite her oldest daughter, his half sister, to a few dinners to aid in her coming out now that she’s eighteen. Alistair is reluctant to help since he doesn’t want to acknowledge Amelia as a relation and quips if he acknowledged every one of his father’s bastards, he’d have to start a charity. Mrs. Allenby gathers Alistair won’t help so she leaves. His determination to save the family name and money guides him.

The same day, Alistair receives a call from Mr. Robert Selby. He and his sister Louisa have recently come into town for Louisa’s first season. Robert says Alistair’s father had been Louisa’s godfather. While Robert’s made connections at Cambridge, they can’t help. Alistair, unsurprisingly, turns Robert away.

As the narrative turns to Robert’s point of view, we learn Robert is actually Charity. She’s disguised herself as Robert to ensure Louisa marries well. Charity thinks about “Robbie,” the first Robert Selby, and how she’s grown increasingly uncomfortable with using his name despite having permission to use it.

While out walking, Alistair argues with his younger brother, Gilbert. He wants him to join clergy and then take a rectory in Kent. Gilbert stops mid argument when he spots Louisa, whose bonnet has conveniently flown off and attracted the notice of several gentlemen. They approach and Alistair announces he’s changed his mind and he’ll throw a ball for Louisa. Charity suspects murky intentions, yet goes along with the plan. Alistair wants Louisa’s beauty to distract all the gentlemen, who then would ignore his sister Amelia who he plans to invite.

At the ball, Alistair memorizes Charity’s laugh, noticing how charming she is. Alistair realizes in his pettiness to Mrs. Allenby, he’s tied his name to the Selbys.

Charity goes to a gentlemen's club with Alistair. After arriving home, Louisa asks Charity what she’ll do after Lousia marries. Charity lies, saying she’ll live at the gamekeeper’s cottage at Fenshawe, their estate. Fenshawe would pass to Clifton, the real Robert Selby’s cousin. Charity had attended Cambridge at Robert’s insistence and name, so when he died, Charity kept the name to keep Louisa from destitution. Their butler Keating and Louisa’s great-aunt Agatha know Charity’s secret.

Charity and Louisa befriend Gilbert and Amelia Allenby. Gilbert and Louisa have a mutual interest in agriculture. Pembrooke visits and meets their aunt. During this visit he says Charity doesn’t seem like a Robert and calls her “Robin.” (Just as a little side note to everyone listening, at this point, I’m going to call Robert/Charity by the name of Robin.)

They grow closer. Have a few Moments. The cousin who’s set to inherit, Clifton, finds Robin (who’s with Alistair) at the park. Alistair leaves and Robin tells Clifton they’re in town for Louisa’s season. Clifton says he scarcely recognizes Robin, known to him as Robert. In a conversation with Louisa later, Robin worries about Clifton’s presence in town. She walks to Alistair’s place. He reads to her and they kiss. Robin stops him because she’s aware he’s kissing her because he thinks she’s a man.

While Alistair agonizes over writing Robin a note, his solicitor says it’s not possible for Alistair’s father to be Louisa’s godfather. Alistair confronts Robin about this, and she tells him everything. Alistair doesn’t take it well, and Robin leaves, crying. He doesn’t care about Robin’s gender, rather dislikes the fraud. Eventually, he decides revenge is beneath him.

He tells her this as they duck out to the gardens at a ball. Robin reveals she started as a maid at Fenshawe, practically raising Louisa. They kiss and Robin slips away.

Mrs. Allenby hosts a salon which Alistair and Robin attend. They leave together and have sex at Alistair’s home. Afterwards, Robin asks if he regrets it because she’s a fraud and a foundling. He admits he doesn’t know what the right choice would’ve been, so no. She’s not a fraud and he says she’s a changeling, not a foundling.

Six days later, Robin still hasn’t heard from Alistair. Gilbert has proposed to Louisa and Robin tells her something’s going on between her and Alistair.

Alistair returns to London and calls on Robin. They have sex again and Alistair proposes. Robin says no, asking what would happen to Robert Selby. Alastair suggests faking a boating accident. She still rejects him and says he’d be ashamed of her and everyone in society would laugh at him. She leaves. Like any sensible person, Alistair gets drunk and tells his brother a marriage proposal happened at the Selby house and it was rejected. Gilbert thinks Alistair proposed to Louisa.

When Robin wakes up she discovers Louisa has eloped. She chases after them so Louisa doesn’t feel guilty about having to elope, not to oppose it, and discovers a broken carriage with an injured Louisa and Gilbert inside. They impose on some farmers and Alistair catches up with them. He and Gilbert clear up the miscommunication. There are some more conversations between Alistair and Robin, but eventually Alistair’s solicitor tells him Robin’s already married. Alistair asks Robin why she hid Robert Selby’s death when as Robert’s widow she would inherit a thousand pounds. Robin replies Louisa would’ve gotten nothing. And even if she had kept the money, living on forty pounds of interest would’ve done nothing for Louisa. Besides the initial deception had happened two years prior to Robert’s death where he asked Robin to go to Cambridge in his stead. Alistair proposes again and Robin refuses because she doesn’t want to expose Louisa.

Robin accompanies Louisa and Gilbert to Scotland without Alistair. Even though Robin could sign for Louisa’s marriage as her guardian, she wants to ensure the marriage won’t be exposed to any fraud. She goes on to Fenshawe after they get to Scotland. Alistair returns home and gives each of his half-sisters three thousand pounds.

At Fenshawe, Clifton overhears Keating and Robin talking and demands Robin fake Robert Selby’s death so he can inherit. Robin complies.

News of Robert Selby’s “death” by boating accident reaches London. Alistair realizes Robin’s done away with her disguise. She returns to London and introduces herself as Mrs. Selby. Alistair proposes to her again saying he’ll weather any scandal. Robin Selby, soon to be Robin de Lacey, dresses “vaguely like a pirate.” The end!

[LAUGHTER]

Chels: I definitely want to talk about Robin’s name! Names in general in historical romance carry so much weight. For example, there’s that moment where characters shift to using each other’s first names, which signals that their relationship has progressed. Robin is not just a first name, it’s a nickname just for her. There’s the gender and identity aspect to it: Charity isn’t Charity really, because she felt like she left that life behind. She’s not Robert, because Robbie is a person she knew and loved. So she’s Robin! It’s an androgynous name that fits her very well, and it’s even better that Alistair gave it to her before he knew she wasn’t really Robert.

Emma: Yeah, the name is so great, and there's a moment I love especially where Alistair tries to go back to a more formal like to sort of do an injury to her. He tries to call her Miss Church, to try and make things more formal. She's like “I haven’t been Miss Church--ever, since I was a servant.” So it's like she totally has this reaction where it's like Alistair doesn't have the option to be more formal with her, because he gives her the nickname of Robin. There's like this forced intimacy between them, because she takes to this name so immediately, and it's like she hadn't really considered this as an option before.

You're really sort of watching her play into this like androgynous in-between name, that she's always thought of herself as playing at Robert. That when she's able to be in this sort of like non binary identity of Robin that really like suits her, she has this very like, almost like violent reaction to him, trying to recede into formality and her sort of exclusively female identity of Miss Church.

Emma: It's very…it’s a good play on that linear progression that we expect in historical romance.

Chels: That's such a good point. But like the reason that Robert Selby felt so off a little bit was because it was Robert Selby, and it's not necessarily because Robin is play acting and the way that she is comfortable with like she has her own kind of unique style and her unique desires, and that kind of like fit a little bit better with Robert Selby than they did with Charity Church. But neither of them are really her

Beth: Yeah, there's this thing in fantasy books that happens that I kinda like a common theme is the power of names. I think, in Ursula K. Leguin’s Wizard of Earthsea series is kind of like a more prominent theme. That shows up so it's just a kind of something that, it was something that came up. while I was reading this book, I thought of the power of names. It can establish an identity, establish a relationship between that person, like even outside of a fantastical setting. There is still a lot of power behind names, and what they mean to us, or what they denote

Chels: Absolutely.

Emma: I think it makes sense. It's like the because I guess most of like what we're getting on. Robin's side of her POV. Is this like working through her identity? And I just love that it's like she's she's work that's what she's working through like in-process as the book is going on. She doesn't come at the beginning of the book, thinking like I’m between a man and a woman and it's like the name is sort of the thing that almost like sparks it.

Because I think she was thinking of Robert Selby as this identity she was taking on with an end date, and I think she really struggles to think of what her life is afterwards like. She lies to Louisa about what her vision is. She doesn't have an idea of what comes after Robert Selby, but she knows that it's not quite right, and that that really takes up the most of her POV. While I think Alistair's POV really focuses more on the relationship. I felt like we spent more time with him, processing the decisions about the relationship, while Robin’s is mostly about her identity. And I think that taking on the name is sort of what spurs that.

Beth: Yeah, I agree with that. I think that's a good assessment.

Chels: Yeah, it is really important to me that Alistair gave Robin the nickname before he realized her duplicity. I think part of it is proprietary, like he often thinks that he wants something of Robin for his own. So he creates this unique intimacy with the nickname kind of like as you mentioned. But he also tells her that he thinks it fits. There's a part of him that speaks to a part of her that she isn't quite revealed yet. He knows she's special, that she blooms in company. Hence the springtime reference.

Beth: So we’ve talked a bit about Robin and the importance of finding her name. I wanted to touch a bit on Alistair and his desire to improve the family name, since his father “tarnished” the name through “cards, horses, women, bad investments.” At the beginning of the book, Alistair defines himself in opposition to who his father is and this is his motivation, which creates the perfect conflict in the face of marrying someone like Robin. Her class and history alone would create a scandal. His initial solution is to hide out in the country, which wouldn’t work, based on who Robin is. I think we’ll touch more on that later. And we see how much he's changed by the end of the book, by how he reacts to his aunts like they are getting after him for settling money on the Allenby sisters, and he counters that pretty, pretty well. He sees that family is more important than how people perceive their family. That's what he's come to value.

Emma: The big decision to be made by Alistair is like, what do you use this like reputation and name for, because again, kind of like Robin, he doesn't exactly have a vision for it. He thinks, like I have to do this because my father couldn't. But then also he realizes his father actually did set up his daughters

Beth: Yeah.

Emma: To some success, like even though he was a spendthrift, and was about this money, like they're not impoverished, at the beginning of the novel they don't initially have entry into the ton that Alistair can give them, but they're not…his father, was able to give them some money to live on. And so he realizes that his father, even though he did things differently, is still ensuring a legacy, just a different legacy, that Alistair envisioned for his family.

And then, Alistair’s, there's big realization is like, like, Why Why have this title? Why have this good reputation? If I can't use it to be with the person that I love. Like, I'm gonna throw my weight around. I'm gonna throw my money around in order to make sure that Robin is accepted, at least by part of society, and he knows that some people won't accept them, and some people will just give them the cut direct. But they get to be together, and they're gonna have their family.

And they're gonna have the people that wanna be around them. And also some people are still intimidated by his title, like he's still pretty powerful, so that he sort of has that like future vision all of a sudden, because Robin enters his life.

Beth: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. It kind of like, what are you building all this capital in your name, for if you're not going to use it? It kind of makes me think of rich people who don't need money, yet they just keep working. I'm like what, and they just have no time, I guess, is what i'm saying. Like you're just working and working. You have all this money. What's it for? Kind of the same with Alistair?

You build all this equity in your name, it's kind of going to come in handy when you marry someone like Robin, and you do need to weather that scandal with her. So.

Chels: Yeah, and so he's kind of like cordoned off his half sisters, too. They obviously don't have the same last name. But there he doesn't even really see them as his family for most of the book, I would say so. He's got them kind of like sectioned off into a different like mental category than he does his brother Gilbert. But like something that is kind of really sad is that he kind of has this realization. I think, midway through the book that he and his brother aren't, really that close. So like esteemed family unit which is just him and Gilbert basically at this point, it's just it's really just him. It's like he's a lonely man on a hill.

Emma: Gilbert is also the one to point out that his that Alistair's mother was not nearly as offended by their father's behavior as Alistair was. Alistair has to go through this process of like, am I actually?? I’m defending something that is a phantom. Like my mother is dead. She also didn't seem to care about my father's affairs. She lived a happy life, and it's like Alistair here has been like outsourcing this anger.

It's like actually, he has to sort of own up to it, and take it on as part of his own personality, this resentment he has towards his father. That's one of the things that's causing distance between him and Gilbert, is that Gilbert just kind of wants to move on like he takes up with the Alleby Sisters pretty easily, and is becoming closer with them much faster than Alistair.

And Alistair just has to own that, like he's kind of difficult, and maybe he's holding on to grudges that he could let go.

Beth: Yeah, I think this would be a good transition to the like the family section, since we're to kind of like talk about family like move to that, I mean, do you want to read the yeah.

Emma: Robin and Alistair approach family in opposite ways while both act as heads of their families. Alistair struggles to acknowledge his half-sisters and their mother. This has to do more with Alistair’s feelings about his father, and he sees them as the product of his father’s worst behaviors. What kicks off the book is Alistair wanting to stick it to Mrs. Allenby. By the end of the book, Alistair acknowledges his sisters and settles £3000 a piece on them. In contrast, Robin lives solely for Louisa, doing everything she can to promote her interest and sacrificing a lot. Then, by the end, she finds a life and identity of her own. How do you see these parallel journeys?

Chels: I see it as Robin bringing Alistair into the fold. So Robin and Louisa are family, and Robin loves Louisa, so she does everything in her power to keep Louisa safe and happy, and to ensure that she's a good life. Robin is sacrificing the £1,000, and that's like money that she would have gotten as Robert Shelby's widow had she not committed the fraud, she would have gotten £1,000. To continue this ruse with Louisa, but she also gets to keep living as Robert Selby, which, even when she had to do that in isolation, was preferable to her to her life as Charity Church.

Louisa and Robin are family by marriage. But there's also a little bit of a found family aspect to it, too. So Alistair pursues Robin. He invites her to clubs, shows up at balls. He wouldn't otherwise attend, and then makes excuses to give her gifts.

But you see, Robin sort of adopt him as family early on, too. So when Louisa and Gilbert criticize Alistair, Robin gets huffy about Gilbert not having a job and being grateful for what Alistair has provided.

This feels a bit incongruous with the Robin that we know who has been amused by Alistair, but also very critical of him. At this point she's sort of taken ownership of him and started being proprietary in return.

Beth: I like what you said. I think one of my favorite character arcs is when characters influence each other positively, and that's kind of what's happened between Robin and Alistair, and we've already touched on this. Alistair’s concern in his family name, and how it plays out with him, distancing his sisters; how Gilbert actually doesn't care, and it's kind of something more that Alistair focuses on. Because he's concerned about appearances and his own anger towards his father.

But I think this is a really good starting place for him, because by the end, as I mentioned before, when his aunt challenges him on what he's done. Settling money on Allenbys, he speaks about, “brotherly love” and filial respect as worthy standards.

And I think Alistair influences Robin, too, where he questions her on what she wants. I think it's great that she does so much for Louisa. But Louisa is approaching marriage, and coming into herself and Robin should kind of focus more on promoting her own happiness

Chels: Does feel like…I mean, Louisa is also extremely young, and you can kind of tell that, like she has that like single-minded focus of, well, I don't want to say that that's a little bit uncharitable, because she does, she does think of Robin and Robin's well-being but like I'm thinking specifically of like the moment where they steal off to get married in secret. And Robin ends up being drugged…it hasn't her idea. But I feel like Louisa could probably just tell Robin.

Beth: Yeah, she could have been like peace going off with this guy to get married. And Robin would have been like, okay, “have fun. Scotland's a good idea, actually.”

Emma: Yeah, in context with Robin and the Allenbys, I think that's also another like a frame of influence, because Robin becomes close to the Allenbys much earlier than Alistair as well. And that's actually like a point of contention, because Alistair is thinking like is Robin like courting Amelia Allenby? Because they seem to like, get along so well. And so, while Alistair, they're still thinking that Amelia Allenby must be sort of this ridiculous young woman, he sort of has to have, like a better faith interpretation of like what she's like, because it's like Robin and Amelia get along so well, and I like Robin so much Amelia must have like some value, even though she's an Allenby sister.

So that closeness, I think, also just opens up the option for Alistair to think more favorably about the new members of his family, maybe even more than Gilbert taking them on, because Alistair are so predisposed to think well of what Robin thinks about things because he's so enamored so immediately.

Chels: ​​And he also shows up at the Allenbys like way before he's cool with them in order to see Robin, which is something that I think is very interesting, like you just want to get him there like you want to get him to that point where you're just like, okay, so you can kind of see right like you're comfortable, being here for your own purposes.

Maybe you should see that they are too.

Emma: And the Allenbys, both the mother and Amelia, sort of like discover that Alistair has like feelings for Robin before they really understand Robin's like identity, and they're totally fine as it. They're like, we mostly want you to help Amelia like whatever you need to do like, as far as like your identity, your sexuality.

We could all tell that you love Robin, and we're fine with that, because there they know that they're indebted to him sort of. I think it's a good example of the deference that certain people are going to have to his power where some people might say, that's like not historically accurate.

Like, yeah. but like the Allenbys, they are much more interested in his like sort of social currency and actual like literal currency than they are like catching him out in like a sexuality lie, because that's there's no advantage for them for that. Also, I think they generally do care about him. It's not totally even a selfish interpretation.

Beth: They are so nice when everyone thinks Robin is dead, they're just like How are you? You know we know you cared about, you know, Robin/Robert a lot, so I always thought…I like that part. I think you're right. They're smart, they know it's better to to trade on the social currency he can offer, but it's not entirely without feeling so. I like that that part of it.

Chels: I thought that was so funny when Alistair was just like: Robin's not dead, and they're like, oh you poor thing.

[OVERTALK]

Chels: she's really not.

Emma: But you don't understand! There's so many layers to like the deception that I put into her mind.

Chels: I'm really enamored of all the miscommunication that happens in this book, because every single time it's very funny, like the the part with the Allenbys. Mrs. Allenby and Amelia comforting Alistair when Alistair is just kind of like upset about his relationship, but not about a death, so little few comical moments there. There's also that miscommunication between Louisa and Gilbert where they think that Alistair is going to force Louisa into a marriage. Yeah, and that's why they end up eloping.

Because they think that because, like Gilbert approaches Alistair, and he's like.Why? Why didn't you even ask Louisa for permission, and Alistair is like, Why would I ask, Louisa, what are you talking about? Louisa has nothing to do with this? And so in Gilbert's mind. He's he's like oh, my gosh! Alastair is going to marry Louisa, and he doesn't even care what she thinks about being married to him.

Beth: I'm a huge fan of what Gilbert does. It's logical. My older brother said that a marriage proposal happened at the Selby House. He doesn't care about Louisa. We got a make a run for it.

Emma: It's also like it's it's such a good example of, like the limitations of dual POV. Because you think about like in both like Alistair and Robin's mind. They have all the information, but neither of them realize how weird they've been acting, and this sort of like Gilbert's reaction is at the farmhouse. It's like dude. You were being so weird like I don't think you like Louisa, but like what else was I supposed to think? There's only one young woman at the house.

And you've been like weirdly obsessed with the Selbys for weeks, how am I supposed to react? And Alistair is like, oh, yeah, like I see it now that you, you're telling me the information, but his perspective is so limited because he's so focused on Robin.

Beth: Yeah.

Chels: So focused on Robin!

Beth: I think it's a good point to transition to talking about fraud. If everyone needs to scroll up to that point in the google doc. I will say this. Emma tweeted it, and I thought it was hilarious. It is property fraud the most romantic crime?

Beth: Yes, obviously

Emma: I do think fraud is romantic, and I think it's because property is so unromantic. Historical romance often you have this like property question. What house are they going to live in? Who's gonna inherit?

And this is one of the reasons that I love historicals so much. It's because the happily ever after have to be believably multivalent. So you can't like: romance cannot overcome everything, because these people have to have a place to live, and like the economics of wherever that there it's set.

We have to believe that they are either working or having an estate to live off of and it just the actual romance is not the only thing that needs to be solved. There has to be the the propriety and the duty, and someone, we have to figure out where the money is coming from. So I think these economic factors and societal factors actually do probably affect real world romance now more than we might imagine.

But something about the depiction in historical romance is more believable, and I think most relationships are real life are also multivalent. But we have to, in historical settings, we buy it more where someone is worried about the society pressure.

Also sort of this fraud I find very charming, because it's just believable in historical settings, because we have this like pre-Internet and pre-paper trail. I think it would be hard to pull off a lot of these fraud plots in a contemporary romance, because people would discover it really easily Why does the cousin not recognize Robin? So he hasn't seen him in decades!

So something about like lying in the same direction to where both people are in. On the fraud, I find very romantic where it's like, they have to overcome these like antiquated property rules to be together. I just find it very, very charming.

Beth: Yes.

Chels: Are we going to talk about A Lady Awakened?

Beth: Add it to the bingo sheet for people following along.

Chels: So when you think of like Martha from A Lady Awakened and Robin from Unmasked by the Marquess. They both have to commit a certain fraud in order to keep people safe like Martha is keeping kind of a whole household of people safe from an abuser, and Robin is keeping Louisa safe, maybe more cared for than safe.

But Clifton is kind of like a big question mark like you don't know what he would do with Louisa like you, don't know if he would take care of her, or if you would try to like, pawn her on her off on somebody, and that's kind of like a reality that they have to kind of maybe assume the worst case scenario instead of hope for the best, because they don't they, they don't know him that well at all.

Chels: So yeah, no, I I definitely see that along romance, and I think it is very romantic. It's close second for me, because I think nautical piracy is the most romantic crime.

I think Alistair might as well, because he keeps thinking about Robin as looking like a pirate, and that her hair suddenly makes sense to him. She was dressed in her pirate outfits. But I was like that's a pirate. Okay, it's a fancy pirate.

Beth: Corsaire!

Chels: A fancy pirate! and I also do want to give a shout out to this line from Alistair's thoughts, because I definitely think it's romantic: “He took a moment to recalibrate his notions of fraudulence, so they might be more in line with her own.”

Emma: It's very sweet, and I think one more thing about Martha. I like that both, so Martha and Robin start off thinking that their fraud is wholly for other people, and they're kind of afraid of the selfish reasons like, I think Robin's a little afraid to admit that, like continuing to live as Robert Selby means something to her, and that that she doesn't want to go back to being Charity Church, and I think Martha is also a little afraid to admit

that she doesn't want to go back to living at her brother's house like that would be a regression for her.

And I think they're so afraid of those selfish reasons. But their partners are able to show them like the selfish reason, is not… selfish is not bad, like taking care of yourself and advocating for yourself, and like thinking about what you want out of life is not inherently a bad thing like so selfishness, it's not. Is that the opposite of being kind, or being, putting yourself out there for other people. So I like that that sort of a journey that their partners help them get to for both of them.

I just think it it makes for a very sweet, romantic sentiments.

Beth: I do want to give a shout out. I really like that point….I need to add that before I switch. But I kind of love Keating, the butler. It's just like, and he was a big fan of the fraud, which is why I’m bringing him up in this section. There's this part where that's how Clifton so he shows up at Fenshawe, and then he overhears Robin and Keating talking about what Robin should do.

And Keating is like you're stealing. You've always been fine with it like just keep doing that. And I was like this is making a lot of sense.

Chels: Listen to the man, Robin!

Beth: So big man Keating, I hope he gets his own book, there's a line, or she's like I don't she'd always suspected him of having like reformist tendencies, or something like that or revolutionary tendencies.

And I think what we've been talking about about the two identities that are kind of before Robin, the Charity, she can either go back to being Charity Church, or she can keep going with the Robert Selby and I like how Sebastian resolves the book where she finds the third identity, her true self of moving forward so on that note we have a transition to talking a bit more about identity because it is one of the more prevalent themes that Sebastian explores.

One thing I noticed was Robin felt really settled in who she was and a lot of the book like we talked about was it's kind of focused more on how she expresses that identity like how she can be herself.

So what instances stand out to you?

Emma: Yeah, I mean it's nice that so, Alistair, I think, struggles to grasp someone, preferring one area of the world opposed to others. Because, again, we've talked about how his plan is just to move to the country and remove Robin, and it's like they're gonna live in their like little unit together. But then he thinks about like when he fell in love with Robin. It's because Robin works so well in a group. It's like he's always looking at Robin across rooms, and Robin is like the center of attention and thrives in the city, and it's like again. It's like that selfish reason of why Robin wanted to come to London.

Robin does well in a group. He did well at Cambridge. He sort of fits in there and blossoms at Cambridge. So it makes sense that Robin is sort of also dealing with this identity of like, where they grew up in Fenshawe is like very remote, and that's like not that's really like the Selby aspect of things like that is much more like Louisa and Robbie, while Robin seems to be more comfortable around people that's there.

That's like a sort of even different identity than the gender stuff that an Alistair has. I think that's almost the thing that Alistair struggles more to understand than Robin's gender identity. He's like, yeah, like, why would you be around other people? Other people are the worst.

Beth: and I think Robbie, like the original Rob, Robert Selby picks up on that, too, of hey, you go out to Cambridge. You're gonna have a great time, and I’m just gonna stay here because this is where I like to be.

Emma: He wants to the farm he's like, I just. I want to be on my cows.

Beth: What is with all these people who love agriculture? It's like Robert, Gilbert, Louisa. I am sure it is cool, I like animals, they’re nice.

Chels: Does Gilbert really love agriculture, or what does he really love Louisa?

Emma: Oh that’s fair.

Chels: Not to knock Gilbert like. No, no, no, he's. He's gonna to great, I believe.

Emma: And he suddenly is much more interested in like taking up an occupation once. Louisa is like, I love farm life like you know. What. So do I!

Chels: He was like. I was really considering the Rectory before now, but now that you've mentioned it, yes!

Chels: I had something that…all I can think of now is just like Alistair, just like I loved that Alistair is like acknowledging, because when he notices that Louisa and Gilbert are flirting with each other, he's just like just going to ignore that If I say anything, it's going to get worse. I feel like not something I usually see, like everyone's trying to like shoehorn their way into it. Alastair is like oh, no, I'm the nerd older brother, he does not want to hear my opinion.

Emma: Louisa just seems to like sort of like land on Gilbert like he's like Gilbert's nice. I like Gilbert. He's fun to read. but it's a Louisa is stunning. Everyone is obsessed with Louisa, and this it's basically Robin's plan works like she brings Louisa to London, and everyone's obsessed with Louisa. And Louisa, just like I think Gilbert's like the first person she sees, and it's like. yep, this is it. We don't really get their romance other than like they’re just in love with each other very immediately, and it's it's sweet, but also it's like what Gilbert? She just sort of picked Gilbert.

It's not like he's the equivalent of, like the most handsome man in the room outside of, like Louise's eyes. So it's a good secondary romance.

Beth: I think he's a good match for her, though, because she really needs someone to just like make her shine. And he's just like you're great. You're like he's good support support system, I think, and I really like him. That's like not a knock against him. I think that's like a very nice thing.

Chels, do you want to touch a bit on gender identity? And then we'll kind of transition to Dysphoria.

Chels: Yeah, sure. Of course, like it's kind of interesting to talk about gender when their language of the time does not match up with the language that we have now.

But Cat Sebastian says in the author’s note Charity/Robin, Robin doesn’t mind being referred to as Charity, Robin uses she/her pronouns. But Robin is probably non binary, which is like something that I think some people might not know is that non-binary people use all different pronouns. There's not like any one way to be non-binary.

Beth: I'm glad you brought that up, because I saw like a few reviews that were like, I was confused. That she's a non-binary character, but doesn't use they/them pronouns. It was like what?

Chels: yeah, that's never been required!

Beth: You can use any pronoun you want!

Chels: So so that's kind of where we kind of are at with like Charity’s gender, so like there's your biological sex, which is like what you're born with, like you're assigned with at birth, but your gender identity does not ecessarily match up with your biological sex.

So that kind of gets me into…I do want to talk about gender dysphoria, which is something that Robin describes in the text, so gender dysphoria is when your gender identity does not align with your assigned sex at birth, and Robin's horror and dismay at the prospect of having to wear dresses and to kind of have to go on it, not necessarily be in Charity, but like living as Charity again kind of reflects that.

Chels: So I saw someone on Tiktok talk about Unmasked by the Marquess as queer progress with the girl in breeches and hoyden heroine tropes. and i'm personally not quite comfortable, making that call, as it kind of implies that there's always a direct line between cisgender tom boyishness, so like, for example, Lillian in It Happened One Autumn by Lisa Kleypas.

And this sort of cisgender tomboyish can be praised or derided, depending on who you ask. And gender nonconformity which a lot of people are still really largely uncomfortable with today.

Chels: So I don't think there is linear progression, because that seems a bit too neat for me. I do think you can draw comparisons. So I was thinking about Velvet Song by Jude Devereux, when I read this for a few different reasons. So in Velvet Song, Alex, the heroine is in hiding because an Earl was trying to kill her after she embarrassed him. She disguises herself as a squire, and starts working for Raine.

He is attracted to her points while thinking she's a young man, and unlike Alistair, who is comfortable with himself, Raine experiences gay panic. He gets angry with himself and with Alex, because of his feelings.

There's a running joke in velvet song that Alex's disguise as a squire is too good. She often thinks to herself, surely someone will notice that i'm a woman now! and gets depressed when that's not the case. Everybody is fooled by her disguise.

I feel comfortable saying that Devereux was making a joke of this, and not intending to make any sort of commentary on gender dysphoria. But I do think it's so interesting that a quote unquote girl in breeches book kind of does this in a roundabout way. What Alex is experiencing, the embarrassment, the depression, the annoyance, and not being seen the way she sees herself is gender dysphoria. Cisgender people are so used to kind of compartmentalizing trans and gender nonconforming feelings, and issues into its own separate category because they see themselves the default, that they don't recognize the common experiences we all have.

Alex and Robin both experience gender dysphoria just in different ways.

Beth: Good point! Yeah, I don't really much that I just yeah, I think that's a good point. I'm glad we touched on it.

Chels: I think for me. I was just kind of a littleI, I I know that there's kind of a tendency to kind of like. Look at historical romance from the past to reference modern day, but, like I do think, when you get into like referencing, like characters who are like canonically cisgender to talk about to talk about characters who are gender non-conforming. It does get a little bit messier. Like I think there are some implications that you might not intend doing that. So that's something that I kind of wanted to point out, and also see that even though that is the case, they do reference each other. They do kind of have commonalities that you might not necessarily do, note in the beginning

Emma: I haven't read that many girl in breaches books, but most of the ones I've read I feel like the heroine is living part of the book as a sort of like male disguise. And then part of the book as herself. And so like, there's often this like tension where it's like she's becoming more intimate in her male disguise. But the hero knows her as a woman as well. And so there's it's like I often have trouble buying those because it's like the idea of meeting someone who's just like wearing pants, now you don't recognize them. I find a little hard to believe.

This book is so different than that, because Robin is living completely, . There aren’t scenes where she's charity, except much later in the book when she's doing it out of necessity in order to protect Louisa like when they're on the elopement

She puts dresses on, and so that she can nurse the Lisa and be allowed to be in the room with her in the the when they impose on the farmers. It's not to trick Alistair. So just the the structure of the the plot is so different than the girl in breeches books where that she's living as a woman, but it's gaining certain access as her male counterpart. So it it just it's built out differently, even from like form perspective.

Beth: I like that you brought up when she nurses Louisa back to health, and that part when she's wearing the dress, feels like the disguise.

Emma: That's the example where she's gaining access that she wouldn't normally have as her as herself is, because they wouldn't let Robin in pants be the person who's like alone with Louisa, taking care of her, they would hire somebody else.

Beth: We're gonna switch to talking about how people use historical accuracy as a criticism, especially as it relates to marginalized communities.

Chels: So our friend Mel, who goes by pagemelt on both Tiktok and Youtube, set in their review of An Extraordinary Union by Alyssa Cole, that quote unquote historical accuracy is often an inappropriate lens to the historical romance written about marginalized communities.

To me this is because, when it's used this way, the historical accuracy complaint directly states that it's impossible to find love under oppression, and that communities who are und studied, whose experiences have been sort of swept under the rug or relayed solely by outsiders, have no business having a happily ever after.

There's also this idea that historical accuracy is objective rather than subjective. A lot of Regency historical accuracy we get is from Georgette Heyer, who is the sort of HP Lovecraft historical romance--deeply influential over the genre, but also irrevocably tied to white supremacy.

When I say I don't care about historical accuracy, this is mostly what I mean in that, even with a moderate knowledge of history that mostly stems from doing research after reading historical romance novels.

I understand that there's no true objective stance, and then a lot of stances to pull from. Heyer and her ik as a reference point.

Chels: So we've talked a bit about having a whole episode that touches on the concept of historical accuracy and historical romance, because there's a lot to say here. But I wonder if you have any thoughts you can share about it here, too.

Emma: Yeah. So with historical accuracy I think about, I feel like so often historical accuracy is weaponized. It's like I've not seen this in another historical book before, like I've not seen it in another historical romance novel, because, like how I feel like most people who are reading these books like, I've read a lot more historical romance novels than I have read history books and like Chels said, a lot of my history reading is responsive to historical romance novels ratehr than the other way around.

But also I think it's easy to think that like if something's never been depicted before it never happened. But I think it it's easier. It's it's a better bet to assume most people, most experiences that people have now, people have experienced before, like there have been gender nonconforming people forever.

There have been interracial relationships forever like there. And there's also a lot of documented history that just doesn't get depicted. This comes up in it, race a lot--that like the race of people in Regency England was much more diverse than 99% of either Regency movies or Regency books that and it's. It's like much more likely that you're a person of color in London than you are a duke.

But think about how many dukes we have in historical romance. So those things where it's like you think about like the base knowledge of what you have, if that base knowledge is historical romance you're not necessarily basing things actually on historical accuracy, you're sort of basing them on received wisdom. And if it's really an easy like fallacy to fall into.

Beth: There's this essay by Laura Vivanco called Historical Accuracy, Racism Courtney Milan and the Duke Who Didn’t Conform to Genre Norms. In The Duke Who Didn’t, one of the main characters is a half-Chinese Duke. And Vivanco challenges readers on which conventions they call historically accurate. Like what is more likely possibly having a half Chinese duke or the inn you go to only having one room or only one bed? Like--what you are picking and choosing to call historically accurate is suspect.

Chels: Yeah, there's Vanessa Riley has this essay in the Washington Post that’s kind of along the same lines, and she points to the author’s note in historical romance as something that authors of color might have to use more stringently to push back against claims that their books aren't historically accurate, because they're oftentimes very, very, very well researched.

But just because, like some folks might not know the history or might not be familiar with it. They assume that it's not true.

So it it's kind of like accuracy is…accuracy has a very specific lens, and that's something that was also kind of interesting when I was because, you know, Cat Sebastian has has an author's note in this book, and one of the main citations for kind of gender non-conforming people is James Barry.

So James Barry was assigned female at birth, and lived as a man. He was born in Cork, Ireland in the 1700s and then became a military surgeon.

He didn't want, he didn't want anybody like unclothe him after he died. He wanted to be buried as a man, but they didn’t…they went against his wishes, and that's kind of when it was revealed that he was assigned female at birth.

You can't say definitively that James Barry was trans, but you also can’t say definitely he wasn’t either. So kind of like the lens of who he was, is told differently by different people.

There are historians that will refer to, or historians or biographers that refer to him as a woman, which I think is uncomfortable. So it's just kind of like historical accuracy is basically who you're getting it from. There is no objective stance. And I think like, especially if you're part of the majority. You should be really cautious about using that.

Beth: Yeah, for sure.

Emma: And like with, If I was thinking about books that we call like wallpaper-y, it seems like if you're if the couple is both white characters and a man and a woman and the book is historically inaccurate, it sort of gets affectionately called wallpapery, where, like I'm thinking like a Tessa Dare books---which I've been known to an enjoy. I read Tessa Dare and enjoy Tessa Dare.

But those books are very wallpapery, where the the phrase to describe the the the only thing historical about it is the wallpaper, because the the plots are very like rom com, and are very similar to like contemporary romance. A lot of things in those books happen that are ridiculous and historically inaccurate. But that's not…It's an affectionate sort of historical inaccuracy that she gets to claim, and people mention in reviews rather than like. Oh, this is this is a disservice to the genre, because it's historically inaccurate. Like she has a whole series where four women inherit castles

Beth: Right!

Emma: Like that’s the premise of the series! That four women independently inherit castles. Just for no reason like they did, and it's like, what is the basis for this? Oh, it's like Well, it's fun! It's fun for a woman to inherit a castle and have this like, have these property rights, and like what are the implications of that?

But it's not…it's not based in like. “Oh, here are all the times that women inherited castles randomly.” So it it's, you can see, if you dig into this at all, you the phrase is obviously weaponized against queer stories and stories about people of color in the genre, because it's not. I don't see it nearly as often when it comes up with a heterosexual white couples.

Beth: Yeah, that's a really good point.

Let's switch to something a little lighter, we’ve been talking about some heavy stuff. We will like Chels like do a historical accuracy episode in the future, because there's a lot to dig into.

But yeah, Chels…

Chels: My favorite good reads list, which was compiled by an angel is called “Stratchy Hero gets Unstarched,” and god does that fit Alistair's journey in this book to a T.

I think what I love about this type of character is that it's a different breed of grumpy/sunshine. like the starchy character has a sort of hard moral line that needs to get shaken up a bit. What do you think is the appeal for these types of characters?

Beth: I think just them coming undone of it--there's just something kind of romantic about that, like they come and done for this one person like change their point of view. I I don't know I love it, though.

Emma: and it feels like it's kind of like what we expect from a historical romance, it's like someone is attached to the propriety and the rules, like the it's like if you're reading historical romance, I think you kind of want someone to be beholden to the society like the the vague capital-S society that we refer to like “society wouldn't accept this!” “Society wouldn't want them to do this!” So it's like nice when one person is sort of attached to that, and then they have to like overcome it for love, because, like what's a better reason to a come undone then, like falling in love with someone who's kind of a renegade?

I also like your comparison to like grump vs sunshine, because I don't know if I would call Robin that sunshine-y But, like Alistair would, there would be like Robin is my sun, like Robin is like, I live and die by Robin. Robert is not necessarily like the most optimistic person, is not like like, like blithely, happy all the time, like Robin is going through stuff. it has to it. Not just sort of like trite optimist, but Alistair, would it think of him, or I think of her that way?

It's very appropriate that it's like this sort of like a little complication of the grumpy sunshine.

Beth: Emma, I want you to read the Novella by Cecilia Grant with Andrew Blackshear. He’s just like, these are the rules and the rules are the rules.

Chels: Somehow when I read that, I was like that's where Martha gets it from. Andrew Blackshear everybody.

Beth: What? What's the name of his love interest again.

Chels: Lucy? Lucy.

Beth: Okay, I love, and Lucy in that book. She's always just like, okay. But why why do we have to do this now? And he's just like having a malfunction like, but it's the rules.

Emma: I do like the Blackshears, it's like an iterative like, okay, like. Fist Martha that has to learn to break the rules, and then Will, and then Nick. And it's like oh, like the but independently of them all, they're like one of us has to follow the rules. It's like, actually you’re all good.

Chels: The rules are dumb!

Beth: Don’t follow the rules!

What do you think, Chels, starchy hero gets unstarched? What is the appeal?

Chels: Okay, me with my sweeping insights. I'm like I don't, my favorite, like one of my favorite historical romances, is Slightly Dangerous by Mary Balogh, because Wulfric is the starchiest character I think I've ever read ever. And like he literally has thoughts like this is not how people should behave over and over and over again, and that is like a true grumpy sunshine, like his love of interest, is like she's so wild. Like there were parts where it was like--It's a bit much, girl.

Emma: She's like rolling down hills. He also gets so mad that he falls in love with her. He's like this is the most embarrassing thing that has ever happened to me.

Beth: I love that. That's like Mr. Knightley, where he's just like I can't believe I fell for Emma.

Chels: It was just like now. I have to be around her more and I love so much, but also I cannot handle the way she behaves. I can't believe this is correct like it's just like it's so perfect.

And Alistair definitely has multiple moments where Alistair is like, Why am I showing up here? No reason Robin's here. I don't know. It's, but we're just rolling with it. It's fine, whatever he's definitely…he definitely like catches the case a little bit more like directly, I think, than like Wulfric does. And then maybe Andrew as well.

But I really enjoy that because it's quite comedic. I think there was a point earlier, Emma, where you said that everybody is obsessed with Louisa, and I had to pause for a second because I was just like we spent so much time in Alistair's head that I was just like, No, it's Robin! like, We’re obsessed with Robin. Oh, my God, someone need the most romantic lines.

But yeah, I think the appeal for me, now that I have meandered about it for like several minutes is that I do love this idea that like our morality is very flexible for people that we love, that is, and that's kind of like how that is definitely that's the epitome of starchy hero gets unstarched. Like you have this firm line, you have this starched collar, uou have this way of life that you've committed to, and then nothing has been able to shake. But it's just like that one person that just like fucks it up.

Emma: Now I want Alistair to meet Wulfric, because I feel like…we didn't in Alistair’s book like we don't see anyone out rank him, and he's like very aware of, like he sort of be able to like Marquess-status like Wulfric does his dukedom, and I feel like if Alistair met Wulfric, like Alistair would be like starstruck, but also, like he, he would not be able to get Robin in line in preparation for the meeting, Robin, would be like it's a duke, it’s fine.

Beth: I think this is a good point for us to wrap things up. I hope. Everyone questions their morality from this episode a little bit.

Chels: Commit some crimes.

Beth: Do some crimes!

Emma: Yeah, it's just some romantic property fraud, I think. Like, why not? That's not legal advice, but if you can make it romantic. Why not?

Beth: 100% a lawyer! That's not legal advice! So what I was just like “do crimes.”

Chels: Can I give legal advice? Take to the high seas!

Emma: So thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. If you enjoy the podcast. You can find bonus content on our patreon at patreon.com/reformedrakes.

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