Rake Recommends 2

Show Notes

Maybe a yearly tradition? Where we recommend books to each other. Chels recommended the first in the Psy-Changeling series to Beth because of their shared love of Heather Guerre. Emma recommended a Carla Kelly because she’s quickly becoming a pod favorite. Keeping with last episode, Beth recommended two contemporaries. Emma and Chels did like an uno reverse to each other and recommended two kind of heavy-hitter political histroms. A good time was had by all.

Books Referenced

Slave to Sensation by Nalini Singh

The Admiral's Penniless Bride by Carla Kelly

With Love, From Cold World by Alicia Thompson

A Bed of Spices by Barbara Samuel

Surrender the Night by Christine Monson

Thirsty by Mia Hopkins

Transcript

[00:00:00.280] - Beth

Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that does...What it wants? Or what we want?

[00:00:08.730] - Emma

What is the podcast's pronouns.

[00:00:10.090] - Beth

Yeah. What are our pronouns?

[00:00:14.630] - Chels

A historical romance podcast where we do what we want.

[00:00:17.610] - Beth

Yeah. There we go. I'm gonna keep this in, actually, I'm Beth. I'm a grad student, and I write at the substack Ministrations.

[00:00:25.050] - Chels

My name is Chels. I'm a book collector and the writer of the romance substack The Loose Cravat.

[00:00:29.930] - Emma

I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the substack Restorative Romance.

[00:00:34.430] - Beth

Today, we're doing our episode a little differently. Normally, we either talk about one book as a deep dive or maybe a theme, or someone will dive deep into a subject and then teach the other two rakes about it. But this time, we've recommended a book to each other, and so we're gonna discuss each of those books, and we don't have Vivaldi going on in the background like we normally do.

[00:01:03.400] - Chels

Womp, womp, womp.

[00:01:06.420] - Emma

Vivaldi.

[00:01:07.280] - Chels

Just imagine the big crescendo.

[00:01:09.360] - Beth

Yeah. Yeah. This is where it would go.

[00:01:14.320] - Chels

(Chels' hums the note we normally end on.) Okay, so. So the first book that we have here is one that I recommended to Beth. It's Slave to Sensation by Nalini Singh. I know that Beth is a big fan of Heather Guerre's Tooth and Claw series, and paranormal romance was a huge part of my initial romance reading journey, so it was my mom's subgenre of choice. So most of the paranormal that I've read was from the 2000s, which was also when paranormal was more en vogue. High stakes are part and parcel with paranormal. You could be facing eternal damnation or the end of the world or permanent death for someone previously thought immortal. I love Nalini Singh's Psy-changeling series because it terrifies me in a way that other paranormals don't. The Psy have incredible powers and are somewhat tyrannical, but they put so much stock in appearing logical and neutral, and it's so difficult to combat someone like that. Sasha, the heroine, is starting to lose her grip on her emotions, which is something she knows that will have dire consequences if the other Psy find out. Meanwhile, she's falling in love with Lucas, who is a leopard changeling, and they're very tactile and emotional.

[00:02:26.740] - Chels

By being with him, she's seemingly dooming herself to fail to alert the other Psy of her deficiencies. And it's very scary to watch. It was just incredible even on reread, but kind of back to Guerre, there are some comparisons that are maybe more surface level, like comparing paranormals because they both have shifters seems a little silly, but something about how Grace from Cold Hearted was written reminded me a little bit of Sasha. Grace is depressed because, like, spoiler alert. Big spoiler. If you're gonna read the book, she's getting drained by her vampire ex-boyfriend. But well before you know what is actually causing the issue, Guerre makes this feel very weighty. So knowing that Beth loves Cold Hearted, I wanted to get her take on one of my favorite paranormal series and then also maybe talk a bit about how the subgenre has kind of shifted in the past 20 years.

[00:03:16.370] - Beth

I do love that series. I think I reread Cold Hearted every six months just as a nice comfy book that's good to jump back into.

[00:03:25.793] - Chels

It's very good.

[00:03:25.910] - Beth

I like it a lot.

[00:03:26.710] - Chels

It's funny to call it comfy.

[00:03:29.490] - Beth

I know. It's like such a good depiction of depression. Like, probably one of the best I've seen, but it is like.

[00:03:36.600] - Chels

I know what you mean, though. It's very.

[00:03:39.610] - Beth

When I say comfy, it's like, I love going back to that world. That's maybe more the feeling.

[00:03:45.700] - Chels

Well, yeah, and like, a comfort read is something that you can slip into really easily because it brings you joy and it's not necessarily like, oh, Grace is a very happy go lucky character. And this is a rom-com, so. Yeah, I get it.

[00:04:00.290] - Beth

Okay, I will do a quick plot summary. So set in the year 2079 in California, there are three races, the psi changelings and humans. The Psy have Psychic powers and are connected to each other by the Psynet. Leaving the Psynet means you will die. The Psy don't show emotion like Chels said. Sasha Duncan and her mother are set to meet with Lucas Hunter about a construction deal to build homes for changelings. Lucas is the alpha of the dark river leopard changeling pack. Lucas is very charismatic and he can kind of sense some Psychic energy. So here. And like throughout the novel, he enjoys trying to get a physical reaction out of Sasha. Then reading that reaction through his heightened changeling senses, Sasha can tell the changelings don't really need them for this deal. So she's aware that they want something else. What Lucas wants is to make this connection because the serial killer, Psy, has killed one of his packmates. So the dark river pack and then another pack, the snow dancers, which I think are wolves, want to get access to the Psy so they can find the latest snow dancer victim.

[00:05:12.080] - Beth

(And I need to add that the Psy are, like, very secret. People don't know a lot about their society or how they operate.) And the reason they're connected to the snow dancers is so they can find the latest victim, who is a snow dancer. Her name is Brenna. She's been kidnapped. And so if they follow the serial killer's previous pattern, they have a week to find her. Lucas and Sasha keep meeting for this deal, and they're attracted to each other. Keeping with the Psy no emotion thing, though, sasha hides nearly all of her reactions. But she does dream about Lucas, though, not realizing she's pulling Lucas consciousness into the dream. So this happens a few times and they have sex in these dreams. Also, early on, we see Sasha contacting her mother via the Psy net. This is a massive mental network that connects all the Psy. They need to be on this network to live. At some point, Lucas opens up to Sasha about the changeling victims and their evidence that the murderer is a Psy. The murderer is very particular and always cuts his victims 79 times before killing them.

[00:06:14.210] - Beth

Sasha enters the Psynet and, quote, ghosts one of the council members. So it's like part of her mind attaches to him and she follows him. In the Psynet, the council are the top Psy and her mother is on the council. So while she's doing this ghosting thing, the council talks about, quote, "he has taken another victim," demonstrating the council are aware of this murderer and they're covering it up. Well, I don't know if they're covering it up. They just. They know that it's happening. There's like a bigger cover up going on. A lot happens, but one of the big conflicts is getting Sasha out of the Psynet. She needs a new mental network to link to. She and Lucas, at some point, meet a group of Psy who've done that and formed their own smaller network. And it's like a few people, not like a thousand smaller. It's like a handful of people. For reasons I don't remember, Sasha can't join that network. But Lucas offers himself up as her anchor or like to be on her mental network in the process of finding the murderer, who is one of the council members and all that.

[00:07:24.640] - Beth

Sasha's kind of against this. She doesn't want to get linked to Lucas because she's afraid that it will kill him, like drawing that much mental energy from him. But it still happens anyway, as time goes on, she wonders why Lucas isn't dying. And it's because the whole pack is her new mental network. She feels great, and she and Lucas are mates. And. Yeah, one other thing. In the Psy, there are those who are cardinals and they have big powers. You can tell. I read a lot of fantasy. That's a joke. These are the technical terms. Big powers. But Sasha's always felt like she's defective. That's her own thought that she has, because she doesn't have the big powers that are supposed to come with being a cardinal, which you can tell by their eyes. So she struggles in the early parts of the book with panic attacks. And when those happen, she's expending large amounts of Psychic energy, but eventually she realizes she's actually an empath, or e-psy, as it's called in the book. Anyway, that was a great plot summary. Let's jump into discussion points. It's so hard when it's world building that I have to be like, okay, this is the information you need to know so that this discussion will make sense.

[00:08:44.590] - Chels

I think you did great.

[00:08:45.480] - Emma

Yeah, I feel like. I felt I didn't read this book. And I think I followed the vibes of our plot summaries have gotten so much longer since the last time we did this style of episode.

[00:08:52.890] - Chels

So it's like, yeah, we just keep getting mopre detailed.

[00:08:58.990] - Emma

It's hard to revert. How did any of us ever make tiktoks?

[00:09:03.570] - Beth

I don't know. We used to be good at this. We used to be good at being brief.

[00:09:10.310] - Chels

Yep.

[00:09:11.590] - Beth

Anyway, I really wanted to talk about the Psy, honestly. Had some religious trauma flashbacks when I was reading this book. But I loved that the way they're described feels. I called them, like, Vulcan, but they're bad Vulcans. They're not supposed to show emotion or react to emotion. So I went on, there's a wiki for this entire series which saved my life as I was trying to remember all these things. So I highly recommend, if you like this series, hop on there, too. That's got lots of background information. So the Psy had these Psychic abilities. And the rationale behind this intense control over their powers is because during their heightened emotional states or outbursts, they could lead to losing control of their Psychic powers. So there's a point. I don't know if they talk about it in the book, but there's this thing where they impose what they call the silence. Silence protocol has led to Psy kind of dominating politics and business since they don't have feelings of guilt to guide them when they're not being ethical. Within the Psy society, there are designations based on powers. We already talked about how Sasha is an empath, and that designation kind of went away because it's all about feeling your emotions, and you're not supposed to feel your emotions.

[00:10:33.350] - Beth

So, yeah, it was like this very oppressive feeling. Chels is right. Like, it feels sinister when you're reading it in a way that I've not really read with other paranormals.

[00:10:45.370] - Chels

I was so scared because Sasha is a Psy. And so how the book is set up is Sasha. Sasha's mom, is Nikita, is on the council, and she's one of the top Psy. And so this book is also I think we'll maybe talk about it a little bit later. But it's set in the Bay area, which I thought was really interesting. Basically, the Psy kind of think that they're in charge of everything, but they're kind of slowly losing power to both the humans and the changelings. But they're not really recognizing that. So at the beginning of the book, the Psy are going into a business deal with Dark river. They're building, a housing complex, which is very bay area. They're building these housing complexes, and that's where Sasha meets Lucas. And so every time Sasha meets Lucas, he's trying to pick at her. He's trying to touch her. He's trying to—he likes her. He's trying to play with her and mess with her. He's actually succeeding at it. He's causing her to break her control. And so Sasha will be in meetings with other Psy where she's thinking, like, if they see my hand is jittery or, like, my eye is twitching, I'm starting to sweat.

[00:12:04.950] - Chels

Like, this is something that, what they will end up doing is, like, wiping your mind. They'll put you, they'll do something deeply inhumane like this.

[00:12:13.240] - Beth

The way they call it, rehabilitation is like the threat of, like, anyway, keep going.

[00:12:17.860] - Chels

Yeah, well, I mean, that's kind of the whole, kind of the fear of rehabilitation, because as Sasha's relationship with Lucas progresses, which is something that you very much want to happen during a romance, because they're meant to be together. They have such great chemistry. You just get more and more scared for Sasha because she is so deeply entrenched. Her mother is on the council. She has to answer to the people on the council. They can just, they don't show up immediately, but they can show up. They can demand a meeting with her. They can ask her for information. So she's having to be insanely careful in a place where you want her to get to the opposite. You want her to let go. It's scary. There were a few times where I really thought that Sasha was gonna get actually hurt by the Psy, because that's the thing. They're like, we're not violent. We're just gonna wipe your mind and fuck you up.

[00:13:25.250] - Beth

Yeah, I like what you were saying about how the changelings and humans are gaining power and the psy aware of it, but that's kind of like one of their things is they're so. They think they're so superior and they're so prideful. I think they can't see it because they can't fathom that the other races would ever pose a threat to them or be, like, smart enough to get power from him.

[00:13:47.490] - Chels

Yeah. Because the emotion is the weakness. It's the deficiency. That's why there are no e-psys anymore. Because they could have raised and trained Sasha to be what she was supposed to be, but instead they're just pretending that's not a thing anymore. And I did keep on rereading the series after. And something that. It kind of becomes more and more clear as you progress is that it's not just the changelings being like, oh, we can fight back. They can fight back. Reading from Sasha's point of view when she's so deep in Psynet and she is so scared, although she doesn't feel emotions, so she's not scared, but she's so cognizant of something horrible happening to her, makes the Psy feel, impenetrable and all consuming and all powerful and this really terrifying big bad. They are that, but it's a changing world. So, yeah, I just thought that was so interesting because I think these stakes are very familiar for paranormal romance. Like, the world is ending. Somebody's gonna die forever. Forever, for real this time. And I. But, like, I. I don't really get the pit in my gut the way that I've got specifically from Slave to Sensation.

[00:15:14.100] - Beth

I feel like it's. I don't know, like, manageable stakes. Also, you are afraid for Brenna dying. That takes up the last third of the book. They're kind of together, and it's just like resolving the external conflict. I do want to talk about the changelings a bit. So they have this thing called skin privileges wherever, like, who has skin privileges? Touch is also very important in pack life, and pack members often greet each other with, a kiss or a touch. Sometimes I feel like authors put things on opposite ends, which is good to generate conflict, but this feels, like, very, very well thought out. Sometimes I feel like it's just like a surface analysis of, like, this person loves a lot and this person doesn't believe in love. And it's just. I'm like, sure. But I. I don't know. I cannot emphasize enough how well thought out this world is, so I think it just amplifies this dynamic even more.

[00:16:11.840] - Chels

Yeah, I thought the changelings were really interesting because they're. I think their hierarchies are kind of familiar. Like, they have an alpha. They have sentinels, which are kind of like the top guys, top leopards that aren't the alpha. And then, yeah, they have. It's like the almost the opposite of the Psy. They have a need for touch. There are times when Lucas would touch, like, he would go over and he would touch like someone else because it was like, oh, I needed this to happen. I'm getting too out of control. So the skin privileges is pack, right? It's pack and mate a little bit as well.

[00:16:52.250] - Beth

Also, I feel like they need to touch and kind of get that energy out because I think then they also kind of lose control of their powers. They end up changing more. In Lucas point of view, his desires are personified as the leopard within him. The leopard liked that kind of thing, which I thought was a good way to go with that.

[00:17:15.690] - Chels

Yeah, I liked their relationship a lot. And then also contrasting the Psy where your parent doesn't give a shit about you. Like, your parent isn't thinking about you.

[00:17:27.590] - Beth

Yeah, we talked about Nikita as her mother, but like, her daughter could have died, and she would have been like, okay, like, there's no relationship there other than control. You're representing the family, I guess.

[00:17:41.980] - Chels

Yeah, it's. And it's kind of. And so kind of like, the contrast of that is of course, like the changelings, where it's pack is life. You've got to be all in with each other. They have hierarchy, they have rules. You can't really challenge the alpha on certain days or something like that. But it does seem kind of like a deep contrast. But then you also see why the Psy are so dismissive of the changelings and why they think. Because they're like, these are people who are ruled by emotion so that they couldn't possibly. Couldn't possibly get the better of us.

[00:18:20.910] - Beth

Yes, I love that.

[00:18:22.760] - Beth

I did want to ask about in your intro, you mentioned talking about how paranormal romance has shifted. And I'm kind of throwing it back to you because I think you've read more paranormal romance than I have. And I've said I felt like this felt more Sci-Fi and then just kind of like the setting and the near future ness of it kind of more than. I don't know. Because the Psy feel like that. I feel like in the other paranormal they would be maybe like. Like it's coming from history. Like the vampires have always existed kind of a thing. Yeah. What do you think?

[00:18:57.160] - Chels

Yeah. Well, like, at first when I read that, I was like, no, it's not a Sci-Fi romance. And then I'm like, well, I don't really know why it wouldn't be because I think the only reason why I am saying that is because the romances that I see classified as Sci-Fi romance are physically in space. Like the Amanda Boucher series or Strange Love. Yeah. Ice planet barbarians. Like, those usually get the Sci-Fi label on Earth. I'm trying to think of ones on earth that are still labeled as Sci-Fi and I'm kind of.

[00:19:31.610] - Beth

I don't know if I'm saying this is like Sci-Fi, but it just feels like more Sci-Fi, like a vibe, like a thread of Sci-Fi yeah.

[00:19:39.990] - Chels

And I think that could just be kind of like part of what goes into the genre that is called paranormal because rereading Psy-Changeling because I was kind of going into it is this urban fantasy? Is this paranormal? And it's both. It's more like it's both. It's definitely paranormal because the telekinesis of the Psy, their powers, that's paranormal, shifters, that's paranormal. It's like if you were to compare this to the Black Dagger Brotherhood by J.R. Ward or the Dark Hunter series by Sherilyn Kenyon, you wouldn't really find strong genre differentiators.

[00:20:19.730] - Beth

I feel like it's paranormal in, like, how you have science experiment gone wrong. That feels paranormal to me, versus paranormal vampire, if that makes.

[00:20:32.550] - Chels

Yeah, well, I mean, paranormal kind of is beyond the vampire. Paranormal is gods, goddesses, wolves. It can be a lot of things. So I think that's kind of why it would definitely be paranormal in the urban fantasy is because we're so set in the Bay area. Like, the whole series is Bay area, which. Fascinating.

[00:20:57.260] - Beth

Yes. You have a point about that.

[00:20:59.380] - Chels

Yeah, I just think that's so interesting. And I. Because I'm relatively familiar with the Bay area. And so I liked how Nalini Singh wrote it. And I'm like, I need to know when she lived there or if she lived there because I know that it's not on her bio that she did. I know she currently lives in New Zealand, but I mean, you know, you move around a lot as an adult.

[00:21:24.840] - Beth

So she had like a bunch of jobs. I'm just pulling that from Goodreads. I did see that she was a lawyer at one point, so I just wanted to add that to our tally of former lawyer to writers. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious what she. I don't know. I have no evidence to support this. I literally wrote that in her script. I wonder if studying for paranormals is like, where that comes from. Is it like more a genre convention or maybe like a publisher thing or just like, I feel like it's more set in America or England. I think I've read some in England, but I'm curious why she didn't set it in New Zealand.

[00:22:02.890] - Emma

I mean, is there any, like. I mean, I was not read the book, but I was like, I. When you were describing it, it sounds so techy, like the Silicon Valley connection. Like, that seems like intuitive to me that like she's making. This is like a natural progression of, like, that prioritization of the world.

[00:22:18.520] - Chels

The Psy are actually a startup.

[00:22:20.270] - Emma

Yeah. So private equity, money for emotions.

[00:22:25.250] - Chels

That's actually, that's exactly what I was thinking. Emma, though the Psy are investors. They're business people. They're Silicon Valley people, but scarier, which.

[00:22:39.490] - Emma

Is an interesting cultural San Francisco connection, because San Francisco both has this 1960s aesthetic. That's your image in one way of San Francisco was Haight Ashbury and hippies. I grew up thinking of San Francisco that way. And that's what San Francisco has been like for like 60 years. It's like now this like, tech center where like, nobody can afford to live, so that isn't it. I like when people. That's interesting to me. Just like, as far as setting goes, that I like to be talked about the setting, even though now I'm just excited to read this book. And though I've not read it yet.

[00:23:14.960] - Beth

You should try it.

[00:23:16.280] - Emma

I still wonder. I need to read Cold Hearted, so, yeah, this could have been your chance. You could have picked cold hearted for me.

[00:23:24.400] - Beth

I feel like we got a promise from you already for a bonus episode. So I'm saving that. I know I can get her to read it, but I feel like there's a lot of books in this series.

[00:23:37.760] - Emma

Is this her main genre? Is this sort of what she writes, these urban fantasies, or does she ever step outside that?

[00:23:44.490] - Chels

Do we know this is her main genre? As far as I know. And Nalini Singh has been a fan of Sci-Fi romance or what they would used to call futuristic romance for a long time. If you look at the top review of Warriors Woman by Johanna Lindsey on Goodreads, Nalini Singh has a review of it, I think, that came out in 1990. It was one of the very, very early, like, before paranormal was like a defined subgenre. There was, like, what they would call futuristic. And this one was in space. It's probably one of the craziest Johanna Lindsey books I've ever read.

[00:24:26.430] - Emma

Her books are, I've never had a bad time reading a Joanna Lindsey book, but at the end of always, like, huh, okay.

[00:24:36.330] - Chels

I was laughing so much because she's like, she's being funny during the whole book, but I could see someone reading it and thinking that she's being serious. But it's basically—it's almost kind of like Barbarella.

[00:24:49.170] - Emma

Okay!

[00:24:49.430] - Chels

Like Barbarella meets Star Trek. It's a planet of He Menwarriors who are very into gender norms. And then she's got her heroine who crash lands on the planet, who is from a very tech advanced space. And so she lands on he men, hulking, drag you by the hair planet. But she's also a little bit relieved because she's used to being taller than everybody. She has men that are taller than her. And so it's like a battle of the sexes gender thing, and it's like, so over the top and so goofy. And I I've seen reviews where people are reading it, like, Johanna Lindsey, this is so crazy that you would think that it's okay for men and women to. And I'm like, she's joking. It's funny.

[00:25:37.520] - Emma

It does sound like somebody writes historicals is like, what if this happened in space?

[00:25:42.340] - Chels

It's so goofy. So it's so funny that. But that's like, I know that's like a. And like, I was trying to, when I was reading Psy changeling, I was like, look for the warriors woman in this. And it's not there.

[00:25:55.860] - Beth

Maybe it's in another one of her books.

[00:25:57.990] - Chels

Yeah, I was looking at it.

[00:25:59.360] - Beth

There's like 15 she calls season one. Altogether 23 books, I think. And then that doesn't include short story anthologies. I just love paranormal for...I find it easier to get into than fantasy. Cause often it's still set in our world. As soon as she said California, I was like, oh, thank God.

[00:26:22.570] - Chels

We're just here.

[00:26:25.170] - Beth

We're on earth. And I'm sorry, but then I can read like 20 more of that. I don't know what it is about paranormal. It's like, I will read one. I'm like, okay, I want exactly that. 15 more times, please.

[00:26:37.990] - Chels

And the authors will do that!

[00:26:39.410] - Beth

Yes!

[00:26:39.730] - Chels

They will write the same series for which God bless.

[00:26:43.950] - Beth

I mean, you made that world yeah, let's live in it. See it from multiple different angles, different kinds of couples. That's all I ask for.

[00:26:53.280] - Chels

It's awesome.

[00:26:54.410] - Beth

Okay, we're gonna hop to the next recommendation.

[00:26:58.810] - Emma

Yes. So I recommended The Admiral's Penniless bride by Carla Kelly to Beth. So I read this when I was on kind of a Carla Kelly kick right before our Waterloo episode. And I wish we could have talked about this during the Waterloo episode, but it didn't technically fit into that episode. So I am shoehorning it into this one by having Beth read it. So this book is just adorable. I really love all the Carly Kelly books that I've read. This one may be my favorite, but Beth did all this research on disability for the Waterloo episode. But this book. So this book's technically outside the scope of that episode because Admiral Bright, the male main character, was in the Navy and the Peninsular war and so he wasn't actually at Waterloo because it's an army battle. So I thought it would be up her alley because she did that research. And Admiral Bright is an amputee. Plus, Chels had recently read it and loved it too. So I think Carla Kelly has a knack for writing everyday people and problems and sort of these very grounded romances that I think Beth is really vibes with and is attracted to.

[00:27:57.410] - Emma

And I wanted to hear her thoughts about disability representation in the book, especially because I think Kelly does a great job of having cute things happen with Bright's disability. He's not someone who is like, struggling with his newly disabled identity. He sort of is very pragmatic about it and there are all these cute moments with his hook that are just really fun. And so it's kind of a different angle for writing disability. It's not a Beauty and the Beast hero is so anguished or she's the only one who can love him, which I think is generally the sort of expected disability representation in historical romance. And then also, in contrast to other Kelly books that I've read, really mean things happen. In this book, the heroine does something that the hero considers unforgivable, and then the hero does something that I think some readers might find unforgivable. And I was just really surprised as I was reading it, even after I had read a few Kelly books, that she went there, and it just made me like her even more because I think that, again, that's something we're always asking for. And I think Beth especially is asking for people to be actually mean to each other.

[00:29:01.310] - Emma

And I just don't think Kelly pulls any punches with this book. And so I was delighted by it, and I just wanted to hear Beth's thoughts about it.

[00:29:08.060] - Beth

Yeah, the third act breakup, really? I was like, hand over my mouth, like, screaming. Anyway, I did just before I read the plot summary. Right when they first meet, he wants to touch her hair, and he, reaches across with his hook and touches her hair. And it was just so cute. And she was into it.

[00:29:32.540] - Emma

Like, he's always pulling at her with his hook, and it's so cute.

[00:29:37.070] - Chels

He's just like, yeah, she's gonna go into that one room that she shouldn't go in. He just grabs her bow on her dress and dumps her back. That scene is ingrained in my brain.

[00:29:47.900] - Beth

Yeah. So cute. So cute. Okay, so this book is set in 1816 with Sophie looking, or she's about to start a job as a lady's companion, only to find her future companion has died. So she's arrived there, and the family's telling her this. And then the family member she's talking to who hired her refuses to pay Sophie's way, so she's out of money. She's on the edge of poverty. So she is like, what am I gonna do? So she thinks, I'm just. I'm gonna go get a cup of tea, which is very British. Charles Bright is there. He was an admiral in the navy, and he's waiting for a woman who's likely bailed on their marriage of convenience. So he sees Sophie and just kind of from her dress and how she is. He's like, I don't think she has a lot of money. So he approaches her, and they talk for a bit, and they're hitting it off. And then he decides to make an offer of marriage, a convenient marriage to Sophie. Charles' sisters are busy bodies, and he's been doing navy stuff for the past 30 years. So he's 45.

[00:31:01.390] - Beth

He wants to get his sisters off his back. Initially, Sophie says no, but they do eventually get married, or else we wouldn't have a book. Sophie's been going by her maiden name because her first husband died by suicide. She tells Charles this, and he acknowledges the stigma around suicide and understands that would be a reason why she would go by her maiden name. Sophie relates to him after this, that she and her son Peter had to live in this small room after her husband died. She didn't have any money, and she couldn't afford coal, so her son caught a chill and died. Sophie shares this as something shameful, that she couldn't keep her son alive. But Charles sees it for what it is, that she and her son were victims of this reversal of fortune. Sophie adds that her husband had been falsely accused of something, but that's kind of all we get at this point in the book. Charles responds, I think he was in charge of some stuff. Like, yeah, he was in charge of his own men. So she tells him that. So he responds, because he had this position in the navy that he never lost sleep over the hangings he was in charge of because he made sure they were guilty.

[00:32:21.660] - Beth

So they settle into kind of this easy marriage. The house Charles bought was formerly like a house of debauchery. So the decor reflects that. Like, a ceiling in one of the rooms has "cupids engaged in activities the statue out front had probably never dreamed of." The house is very understaffed, so Sophie gets into hiring people. She hires people who need a place, like she did. So she meets Amelia, who's like an out of work governess, and she offers her a job as her ladies maid. At the same inn that Charles and Sophie meet. Sophie notices several of the servants are ill treated like the children, so she hires them and gives them light work so that Amelia can teach them on their downtime. They meet with their Jewish neighbors, who've never really been welcomed in the neighborhood, and Sophie regularly meets with the wife, who is sick. Charles and Sophie grow physically closer, and whenever the, like, physical touches ramp up or they have intimacy, they kind of resolve to be like, no, we have a marriage of convenience that's outside of the parameters that we agreed on. So, yeah, that's kind of like the push and pull of the first two thirds of the book.

[00:33:34.460] - Beth

So the big third act breakup is Charles discovering Sophie's first husband. A clerk was accused of stealing money from the navy by ordering substandard food and then pocketing the difference. This resulted in the deaths of several men. Charles only knows this part and that Sophie's first husband was condemned for it. Charles is angry with Sophie, that she hid it from him. He doesn't allow her to talk. He throws a paper weight at her. She leaves. The next morning, Charles brings Sophie tea and her breakfast, even though he's still angry with her, only to discover that she's gone. And there's a letter in its place. The letter explains her first husband had been too trusting and he'd gone to the real culprit, a lord, with all the evidence, hoping that this man would see the error of his ways. Of course, that Lord Sperling, he got rid of the evidence and then blamed Sophie's husband for it. Charles is devastated by his anger, and he looks for Sophie, and it's like months, like she's hidden herself really well. When he finally figures out where to find her, he discovers she's pregnant with their child. They reconcile, they make up, and they get back together. The end.

[00:34:50.180] - Beth

One thing I wanted to talk about was kind of like the romantic arc, I think. Obviously, a very popular arc is that you kind of have two people who are on opposite sides, maybe kind of standoffish, not even always enemies to lovers, just like strangers to lovers. I think normally it's like you're on opposite sides and then you slowly come together, and it's kind of like a slope, like a progression forward. But I find it interesting when authors kind of play around with the couple's journey. So Sophie and Charles start off pretty infatuated with each other. The situation is more of, like, hey, we have these loving feelings, but I'm not sure if I'm feeling more than you, and I don't want you to feel pressured because we have this arrangement that we set up, and so maybe we should. Should just keep to that. So it's like these slow, loving steps towards each other, and then Kelly just yanks the rug out from under you, and I kind of love it. So let's discuss.

[00:35:50.510] - Emma

Yeah. It's so sweet. And I think, like, what you said, where they're learning to trust each other, but they're kind of on board so fast. But also, it makes so much sense. Like, it's not even, like, love at first sight. It's like, this is the weird. Like, they just fit together. Like, they just, like, vibe together so well. And it's like, of course he's into her. Of course she's into him. It just feels so inevitable for them. It kind of reminds me of maybe not the immediate infatuation, but some of the Alice Coldbreath books, where people just have very good reasons to get married very quickly, which I think maybe we've talked about this during an Alice cold breath episode, because I definitely think I've talked about it with both of you before. So many marriages of convenience don't actually, like, aren't actually that convenient. It's like, they're like. It's like two rich people being like, this is convenient. And it's like, okay, but you don't have to get married. Like, there's a different level of stakes for the marriage of convenience. When there's, like, a working class, it's like, the convenience is like, Sophie will have a roof over her head.

[00:36:50.690] - Emma

So there's, like, more of a demand. And I think some of the Alice Coldbreath quick marriages happen that way, too, where it's like, these people need a place to live. So the convenience is that the high stakes comes from that, not necessarily the emotions, because the emotions just make sense for them.

[00:37:07.400] - Beth

Yeah, literally. She initially says no, and he goes to find her again. And he finds her at a church, which that's where she was planning to sleep that night. It's kind of like that. Or she marries this guy, right?

[00:37:19.660] - Emma

And I think she thinks at one point, he seems like he's not gonna hurt me. What else am I supposed to do? This seems like the best option for me. And also because he's offering this for her, sort of sweetly, that she's like, this just seems this is the best offer she's gonna get. But also because it's the best offer she's gonna get and him offering it is what makes her enamored with him, that someone would think of her and be like, why not? Why not, Sophie? Because she's just not been given a chance. And it's like, that sort of, and the same thing for him, I think that he's being stood up for marriage. When she sort of arrives and he's like, I know you don't have to do this, but I also want a wife as much as you want a husband. So it works out for. For both of them. And that sort of immediacy. It is like, a different pacing.

[00:38:08.960] - Beth

Yeah. During their wedding ceremony, she has this thought of, like, she felt like this mantle of protection had come over her. Just the weight of not having money and living in poverty is just kind of. So it's not love that she's feeling, but she does feel like, okay, I feel comfortable. I feel secure now.

[00:38:27.650] - Emma

Right. And I think Kelly's great at writing heroines who have been in fight or flight for a long time. This happens in The Lady's Companion, too, where it's suddenly you're in a place of rest and that's what opens them up to these emotions. And that that's often how she starts the conflict. With the emotional conflict is that the heroine finally gets to sit still for a minute. And I think that's happening to Sophie. She's been in fight or flight for...When we learn more about her marriage. Her first marriage was not necessarily one that was easy, either, because they were always struggling for money. And then the circumstances of his death lead to a very harrowing months after she loses her husband and then the loss of her child.

[00:39:08.280] - Beth

Yeah, it's devastating. I feel like I would way rather read this kind of book where it's the lack of money, just the actual stakes of things. Like you mentioned. What are the stakes between two rich people getting married conveniently?

[00:39:23.830] - Emma

Right. I guess it's she could be ruined is I feel like, often the marriage of convenience. It's like, oh, we have to get married. Or, like, I had to get married because I have to have an heir. You don't. You don't have to have an heir in order to keep going. Sophie has to have a roof over her head in order to, like, continue to live. A duke doesn't need to have an heir. Like, it. This. Yeah, it's just different. It feels more.

[00:39:47.110] - Chels

It could be his cousin.

[00:39:48.140] - Beth

Yeah.

[00:39:50.670] - Emma

There's always an option.

[00:39:51.640] - Beth

Just let the cousin do it. Do you want to talk about the part where he throws a paperweight here?

[00:39:56.280] - Emma

Yes. So this is what I meant when I said there's a part where I think that some readers might not forgive Charles for. And I still. I look, I reread this chapter before we did the episode, and it's really, I guess because the violence happened so late. That's what I'm maybe not used to, because I feel like it's like when we read bodice rippers, oftentimes the violence is sort of concentrated at the beginning, and then there's a redemption or some will do something unforgivable. And will need to forgive them well, forgiving them in the third act breakup for something they did earlier. This is something. It just was very surprising when it happened, but also felt like. So the thing that I think was interesting is that—or why it works for me, I think, is partly because we see Charles' anger. We stay in his POV for a long time, so he throws it, and then Sophie's gone. And then we don't know where Sophie is either. We don't flip to her and figure out, like, she's okay, she's safe. We sort of stay with Charles for a long time, so we see the anguish that he goes through after he does it and, like, the shame that he feels.

[00:40:56.880] - Emma

And there's not really a moment of sometimes when someone does something violent or unforgivable, there's a justification. It's like, oh, here's the excuse for why this happened. Like, there's a big reveal of oh, I have this violent temper because my dad did something that's, like, a normal rake thing. There's this big. There's a justification. I feel like we don't really get that here, but it makes me like it more. And you sort of have to struggle with it. Like, yeah, Charles did something surprisingly violent towards Sophie, and when they meet up at the end, it's like she's still a little scared, and it just feels more grounded and real, which is like, how I would characterize Kelly.

[00:41:33.040] - Beth

Yeah. As you were talking, I'm like, this is just very human to just have a burst of anger, and you can't justify it being like, yeah, something in my past. That's why I'm like this. Yeah. It's just kind of like this outburst. And I like that it does come later, because sometimes I think, as a chronic defender of the third act breakup, all of us are—I really a good third act breakup. To me, it's a test of the relationship. I don't know. I feel like I've had friends who've been in relationships, and it's like their first test doesn't come until several years in, and maybe the. It doesn't last that test, and it's like you've already spent that amount of time. So I guess I always see this third act breakup as speeding up that timeline of yes, we know for sure this relationship can survive some things. And I kind of like, yeah, I kind of like the reversal of the easy part was first, and that's actually, I think, a lot more true in life and how things happen.

[00:42:35.860] - Emma

Yeah and I think it's important for Sophie to have a moment where she's like, I'm. Because it was a marriage of convenience for her. I talked about a little bit, like, it's marriage convenience for both of them. But, yes, Sophie's stakes are higher. Like, she's the one who's gonna sleep in a church that night. It's like she then chooses to go back to Charles, and it's like, that is a moment of choice. She's now where she's staying. She's working, and so she's able to have made her life without him. And so she's not in distress in the moment when she's returning to—she is pregnant and she wants to go back to him. And there's circumstances where she's like, I want to have a family with him, but she's not. He doesn't find her sleeping in a church. She's actively working, and she's found a job through mutual friends that have been protecting her. And so I think that's also important that there's a moment, because, like, the. I think without that, sort of him pushing her away and then her deciding to return, then maybe the relationship never becomes equitable for them because they got married when she was homeless. And it's like, oh, yeah. She chose to marry him. She said yes, but also it was under distress. Like, how. How much is she really on board with this? And it's like, this is the moment that shows to both of them that, like, she is choosing to be there with him.

[00:43:45.620] - Beth

Yeah, no, I agree with that. I think that it's an important moment. One thing I wanted to talk a bit about was the disability. Like, how it's featured in this book. You kind of talked about it in the intro, where it's not like, yeah, I don't. I feel like I'm speaking for all of us all the time. I feel like we're all kind of not on board with Beauty and the Beast retellings at times, because it is often.

[00:44:11.450] - Chels

They're so bad.

[00:44:13.630] - Emma

There's the same thing over and over again. That's more of it.

[00:44:16.520] - Chels

Like, my scarred face is so hideous, and I'm like, what do you think that you're communicating to the world when you write this?

[00:44:24.450] - Beth

Yeah, and I don't want to downplay maybe someone who's, like, immediately been disabled and you are mourning maybe a loss of ability or something, but, yeah, it's so often, oh, how could he, like, like, love this horrific person, like, looking person? And it's not. It's not great. I think that it's normally done in bad taste. So I just. I kind of love how the disability here is just kind of part of his life. Like, she's just kind of curious about it. She wonders how he how the hook stays attached to him, and it's with the strap and just literally just, like, the day to day of it. That's what she's curious about. She's not.

[00:45:05.820] - Emma

Yeah. And I think I read this before we did the Waterloo episode and before you told me about your research, but I think it makes sense that the way you talked about the amputees, especially officers, as a sign of heroism and that he would continue working after being amputated. And it's like he's. That he's, like, this mark of honor for him, and it's just sort of matter of fact about his life. And also, I mean, makes for all these moments of intimacy where he dismisses his. His valet too—it's like, Sophie's gonna help him with his hook, and it makes them really. We're so used to seeing a man undress a woman, and it's like, well, she's helping him put it on and take it off, and it just feels very practical, which is just how I would characterize Kelly. She just loves those moments of practical intimacy.

[00:45:58.550] - Beth

Well, there is a part early on, before they get married, I think, where she has her nicest dress, and as she's putting it on, she realizes why she doesn't wear it is because the buttons up the back. So she has him help her because she can't do the buttons. And he's like, she asks him, and then she's like, oh, no. And he's like, yeah. I wouldn't have been able to survive if I didn't learn how to do buttons with one hand. So it is this interdependence.

[00:46:21.340] - Emma

Yeah.

[00:46:21.580] - Beth

It's not like she's not in a caretaker role. It's just, I'm learning about you. You're learning about me. We're building a relationship. Yeah. Lots of men in the Navy, we talk about this in the Waterloo episode—what is considered being able bodied? And it's like, you learn a very specific set of skills to be in the navy, like, how to use the ropes, moving around the boat. You are very skilled. And so even if you lose your leg or your hand or your arm, you are still skilled in this very niche thing. And like you said, lots of men would kind of, if they lost a limb, you could get a pay raise, because obviously, you're giving a lot to the crown to be in this war. So there was one quote he had that I thought was interesting and I think kind of speaks more to a shift in the regency about what is rank? Who deserves money? I guess I kind of always think of persuasion Captain Wentworth. His last name is Wentworth. He literally went and got his worth. Because he first starts off as not having a lot of money.

[00:47:29.420] - Beth

He signs up at the navy, and then he makes a lot of money. And all the rich, all the, aristocrats here are like, hey, maybe there's something to this. But he. He likes that rank. He likes that more. So it's like, there's this quote where she calls him sir, and he says, "'if you want to call me something, make it Admiral Bright.' He said, putting down his fork. 'During the war, I think the crown handed out knighthoods at the crack of a spar. I earned the admiral.'" So it's just like this actual. I think this kind of shift, it's very small. It's not a prominent thing in this book, but I did like that layer that Kelly added.

[00:48:11.050] - Emma

Yeah. And she writes a lot of military heroes, and I think that's sort of like. Or I think. I don't think she ever wrote a titled hero or that's his main source of his income or anything. It's more like she's interested in people who have jobs and their identities are their jobs. And I think that's very much, like a Kelly thing, that. Yeah, he's. He's an admiral, and he also. He likes sort of running a household. That's the thing that they really come together on is that Sophie has been trained to be a servant, sort of lady's companion, and now she gets to make the decisions about the household together with a partner who's interested in having a collaborator in running the household and making this house that has all these crazy murals in it livable and exciting, and it just. It's very. Yeah, their relationship is so. It's so sweet. That's the thing. It's like, it's so. You're really rooting for them to figure it out. And also, you know that Sophie has a secret about her husband, and so you're like waiting for the other shoe to drop, sort of the whole book.

[00:49:10.520] - Emma

How is he going to react? Then he reacts in a way that is—because I could see someone writing the same story now, and I think they would pull a punch and I think they would have him forgive sort of be like, it's fine. I could see that also, she has all this anxiety and then having him forgive her immediately, that's sort of the arc that. Those are the beats I was sort of expecting.

[00:49:34.950] - Beth

But he kind of has these intense. He kind of has a black and white view of justice. Like, that's why I kind of included that quote where he talked about how he made sure everyone who went to the gallows was guilty. Like, he kind of has this frame of mind. So to me, it is not surprising, actually, when that happens.

[00:49:55.490] - Emma

But, yeah, like he told me talks a lot about he's struggling to come off, get out of navy setting. He's like, this is. This was my whole life. And I think that's also one of the reasons he understands why the woman sort of stands him up. He's like, I'm. I don't know if I'm going to be good at this. I've been very good at my job for 30 years. I don't know if I'm going to be a good husband. I'm going to try. So very sweet.

[00:50:16.470] - Beth

It is very sweet. Check out Carla Kelly. We're going to jump to our next book, which is with love from Cold World by Alicia Thompson. And I recommended this to Chels. I wish I had something deeper other than I thought Chels would like it. When I pitched it to them, I said it was a recommendation via Haley. Our friend Haley. You can find her on TikTok at haleystewfart. Because she read it first, and I saw her review on TikTok and that's what prompted me to pick it up. One thing I think is great about Haley is that she's a passionate defender of Florida, which is her home state. And yeah, I kind of love that. I know people like to dunk on Florida, and this book is set in Orlando. And I think Chels feels similarly in a lot of ways. Both Chels and Emma are from the South, so I'm like the only one on the podcast who is not. But people give the South a lot of shit. And I always appreciate how you guys talk about your experiences and perspective with how people not from the south typically talk about the south.

[00:51:23.810] - Beth

And one other thing I really liked about this book is the kind of setting, like the—this kind of second tier theme park. So it's called With Love, from Cold World. Cold World is the theme park. I thought this was kind of, like a genius move. It gives Thompson a lot of flexibility with her world building to do something interesting while rooting it in a purposeful, real place. As someone who's from the cold, I have often wished there was a dome with plants that you could kind of recreate, summer that you could go to in the depths of winter. I. So I kind of feel like this is the inverse of that, where you have a season that's, like a novelty to you. I don't know. I was so charmed by the setting. I loved everything about it, and I just really liked the relationship between Asa and Lauren. It was very, very cute.

[00:52:14.030] - Chels

Yeah, they were very cute. They felt like people that I knew.

[00:52:17.710] - Beth

Yeah. I feel like in my review, I was like, these people feel very human. Like, I was just like, they feel very real.

[00:52:24.220] - Chels

Mm hmm. Yeah. So I did really. I really enjoyed reading about them, but, yeah, I guess I'll give the plot summary, and then we can jump into it. So Lauren works at a Florida theme park called Cold World, which is what it sounds like, a winter wonderland in a place that isn't known for snow. She's worked there for two years and is an anxious person who doesn't easily communicate with her colleagues. She particularly has trouble with Asa, a cool, blue haired young man with tattoos who's worked odd jobs at Cold World for ten years. Asa is charming and easygoing, essentially Lauren's opposite, and they get off on the wrong foot early on when Lauren suggests canceling Asa's beloved secret Santa in order to save money. Lauren also has a crush on Daniel, the handsome, toothpaste model looking son of the theme park's owner. Daniel also works at Cold World, but it's unclear what he actually does. He mostly just shows up at the meetings and plays on his phone. Asa hates him. One day, the park owner asks to meet with Daniel, Lauren, and Asa in order to give them an assignment. So Cold World is a lesser tier theme park.

[00:53:35.330] - Chels

It can't really compete with Disney or Universal. I don't think they do. They even say them in the book. I don't think so. But she wants to put it on the map and revitalize it. She challenges the three of them to come up with ideas for how to reinvigorate the park. So Daniel immediately tries to enlist Lauren into helping him, but he mostly just wants to have her do all the boring calculations for his dumb idea, which is essentially a snowboard park. When Lauren tries to pick something up from the park after hours one night, she accidentally traps herself inside. Asa, who had been working on a snow machine, is trapped with her. He makes the most of it, helping her grab something to eat and designing a game so that they can learn about each other. They end up getting intimate, and Lauren is not sure where they stand with each other. The next day, Asa is clearly interested in Lauren, and they end up dating. And it's super cute, although Lauren wants to keep it under wraps due to some misguided notions about professionalism. Asa is bisexual and was disowned by his family when he was 17 or 18, so he's not comfortable with the idea of being someone's secret relationship.

[00:54:45.990] - Chels

Asa has a side plot about reconnecting with a sister who didn't disown him but chose to take the path of least resistance and try to placate her father and still keep Asa in her life, something that was never really gonna work in the way that she wanted it to. Lauren shows up to Asa's sister's baby shower with Asa and stands up for him in front of his family, and then he loves her for it. Lauren and Asa have one final misunderstanding about the nature of their relationship and what they want from each other, and Lauren makes amends by throwing a party for Asa. In the end, Cold World continues on with some improvement ideas that Lauren and Asa cooked up, and Asa stops working at the park. Deciding it's time for him to branch out, Lauren moves into his roommate filled apartment, and it's very cute. Yeah. So I guess. Yeah, I don't. I don't know exactly where to start because we kind of have, like, several different points.

[00:55:41.350] - Beth

Yeah.

[00:55:41.650] - Chels

But, yeah, I did think it was very cute. I think Asa, in particular, the. The first. One of the first scenes you meet him, he makes a y2k joke that I felt was very funny, and I was like, oh, I would. Asa felt like somebody that I had been friends with in college or that I would have known. I would have been one of the random roommates in his apartment. Like that. I recognized that on a level that I'm not quite used to seeing in ways that sometimes I see people try to recreate queer friend groups and in a way where I'm like, something about this is weird to me, but not here. No, it was very something that I related to, not that well, I want to take that back because just because something is weird to me doesn't mean.

[00:56:32.140] - Beth

Sure.

[00:56:34.820] - Chels

I say this all the time. Yeah, well, because I was thinking of Rachel Reid whenever I read, because she writes a lot of gay characters, and every time they're hanging out, I'm like, I don't have friends who talk like this at all. This is a different. This is a different subset. Like, I.

[00:56:54.100] - Beth

Right. No, yeah, yeah. We love Heated Rivalry. I think she's good at the central relationship, but all the supporting characters are. I don't know.

[00:57:06.070] - Chels

Yeah, it's kind of a little bit hard to put my finger on. But the biggest criticism, if we're just gonna criticize Heated Rivalry on this part about Cold World. Biggest criticism is probably the way that Rachel Reid writes women. She kind of makes them. I don't want to say the term, but there's a term for straight women who are, like, really into having gay friends, and she writes. She writes them like that, and it's weird. I wish she didn't do it.

[00:57:36.410] - Beth

No, I love the queer friend group. It's like, three or four. It felt just really real. And also, they were incorporated into the story. They all go to the beach together, and I think to their apartment.

[00:57:48.810] - Chels

The scene where she's watching a movie with them. She hasn't had. She hasn't really gotten together with Asa yet. Well, they've kind of soft hooked up. He fingered her at Cold World, and then. So now they're in this awkward space. We're like, where are we now? Like, I've gotten. I've gotten off to you, but we're not really even friends yet. And then she sees a movie at his friend's apartment because, like, one of his roommates is actually one of her close friends, which is very, very queer. And they're watching this movie, and then Lauren is texting Asa. He's in a different room because he has a hotline shift, so she's texting, which he's. He's not texting during his shift. He's. He's finished his shift. He stayed in his room. I didn't want him to make it seem like Asa is bad at the hotline. Yeah, yeah. But he's in the other room, just, chilling in there. She's texting him, and then she just, like, doesn't tell the roommates where she's going. She gets up, and she goes into his room, and then they start getting hot and heavy,

[00:58:48.220] - Beth

And they get interrupted .

[00:58:49.140] - Chels

Later, the roommates are just like, what happened to Lauren? She went to the bathroom.

[00:58:54.390] - Emma

They won't notice if we're hooking up in the same apartment that they knew I was here.

[00:58:59.440] - Chels

Yeah.

[00:59:00.200] - Beth

Yeah.

[00:59:01.050] - Chels

It was just a very, like. And that was kind of another thing. Asa was like, what did you tell them? And she was like, I went to the bathroom? I don't know. That was very funny.

[00:59:11.090] - Beth

I thought that Thompson incorporated his bisexuality and really well. I don't want to call other bi characters tokenistic, but sometimes it kind of feels that way. Or maybe we just don't have books where bisexuality is done like this, if that makes sense, where it's like he gets kicked out of his home for being bi, and it's a big part of the plot line and part of his life. Sometimes I've read some contemporary where it's just like, oh, yeah, I'm bi. And then it's never mentioned again. Why was it even brought up in the first place if we're not gonna explore this identity with this person? If that makes sense?

[00:59:51.820] - Chels

Yeah, I guess I'm coming up on some of the limits of my contemporary where I can comment on how that's done all the time. But I guess kind of getting to. To Asa, like, so that was. See, he was kicked out of his house when he was a teenager. He got caught kissing a guy, and his father is this very conservative pastor, so he's been estranged with his parents, who were no contact. And he also has this kind of, like, strained relationship with his sister, who, instead of choosing to back Asa up, is trying to make him buckle into seeing his parents again. I liked the scene where Asa shows up at the baby shower, and while there's this sort of confrontation with his parents the real focus on a sister who cries because she realizes that she's been pressuring Asa to do something that hurts him. So I do. Yeah, I do like, that. That was kind of the way that you rope Lauren into. That is like, Lauren is. She just is going to do what he needs her to do. He tells her about the baby shower. He's like, I don't think I want to go.

[01:01:01.630] - Chels

And she's like, okay. And then he's like, actually, I do want to go. I want you to come with me. And she's like, okay, great. And then they get there, and he's like, maybe I don't want to go. And she's like, that's fine, too.

[01:01:12.820] - Beth

Exactly what you want out of partner. Just go with you on the emotional journey.

[01:01:18.220] - Chels

Yeah. And she's not picking fights with his father. But if his father does say something in her presence, she's like, well, listen, you need to back off a little bit. So the way that they inveigle Lauren is straight, but she's a huge part of Asa's life and that he feels comfortable in bringing her there. The sister thing, that's something that really got my attention because I was kind of, when I saw this was going to be kind of like a little bit of a family reconciliation, I was like, oh, is this gonna annoy me? Is this gonna. What is this gonna do?

[01:02:02.380] - Beth

Sure.

[01:02:03.470] - Chels

And I think that is a huge. It's something that you is maybe a little bit under explored when there's. When there's, like a no contact. I can't talk to my parents because x, y, and z, like, you have people on all different sides pressuring you, the harmed party, to come back into the fold. And it doesn't matter how you have to degrade yourself to do it or how you. How much it hurts you. Like, it's more. It's better for them to be able to say, I had everybody in a room together than it is to think about your feelings. And this is a very common thing with most families. It's not even just a queer thing. There's a lot of. But I really liked that. I liked that it was never really about the parents in that situation because Asa, I mean, he does kind of there. He may come into contact with his mom again. It's kind of, like, unclear, but, his sister being the focal point. The one that it hurt him the most because he wasn't. I don't think he was even asking her to go no contact with his family. But she kept putting him in a position where she wanted him to show up in a place where he wasn't welcome and she wasn't thinking about that.

[01:03:26.430] - Beth

Yeah, I think you're right. This is kind of her revelation that to show up for Asa is to kind of put his feelings first and to not. I think sometimes with your siblings, you feel like maybe you have more sway with them to persuade them or sometimes with the wronged party. You're like, I know they're like this, but could you just forgive them? Because it's easier to maybe get that person to do what you want as opposed to the conservative, implacable parents who aren't going to change. So, yeah, I agree with you. I really liked this plot point, and I feel like, their relationship going forward will, like, she will be prioritizing Asa. So it's nice that he has that in his life again, like a family member who's putting him first.

[01:04:14.290] - Chels

Mm hmm. Yeah. And then I guess kind of getting back to Lauren, because I don't really want to short shift her. Lauren is not a character that I would usually be excited to read, but I did really like her. So she has anxiety about people not liking her and thinking that she's a killjoy, and so Asa is actually he. I can kind of tell. I wouldn't characterize this as an enemies to lovers. I think some people might, but, I don't think Asa dislikes Lauren. I feel like it's.

[01:04:45.700] - Beth

Can we do embarrassment to lovers? Because it's like, there's this memory she relates where they're at a Christmas party, and they're under the mistletoe, and everyone's like, kiss. And she's like, you know what? I'm just gonna go for it. And she goes to kiss him, but the way that he kisses her, she realizes he was just gonna kiss her on the cheek, and she's just mortified. So I feel like I wish there was more. Like, I think they also just kind of have a general. Not enemies, but just antagonistic towards each other a little bit. But I feel like I would be, like, I would be dead from embarrassment, and then I would not treat that person well because I was embarrassed.

[01:05:27.200] - Chels

It's not. It's. Yeah, it's, like, not enemies to lovers, but it's like, when you make a misstep with someone, you are both aware of it.

[01:05:33.520] - Beth

You're like.

[01:05:34.080] - Chels

And you're like, how do we both know that was a little weird, and now we're.

[01:05:39.320] - Beth

And you don't have a relationship to, like, figure it out. You can't, like, joke about it or something.

[01:05:44.500] - Chels

Yeah, but, Asa is also the type of person who jokes about everything, and so Lauren is like, oh my gosh, he's making fun of me. And that's just. He's. That's how he handles his discomfort. That's how he meets people. That's like. That's just kind of his mode of operation. But so he's teasing her, and she's like, don't call me a robot. I'm not a robot. I have feelings, and it's upsetting her. But this is actually something that Asa actually really likes about Lauren. He likes the way that her mind works, and how different it is from his. So there's this one thing, this one scene after they have sex, so he goes to throw away the condom, and then he comes back, and then she tells him that he better not have flushed it because it would fuck up the pipes. And then when she said that, I was just dying of secondhand embarrassment, I was like, because if somebody had said that to me, if I was throwing away a condom, I would have been like, so I would not have handled that well.

[01:06:44.100] - Emma

You think I've never had a condom on before? Like, I don't know how this works.

[01:06:48.450] - Chels

Yeah, I just. I feel like I wouldn't have handled, but, like. But Asa was so cool with it because he kind of gets her. Like, he knows that she said it. She's immediately embarrassed by it, and she's spiraling. And so instead of making a joke at her expense at that point or, which is kind of what he would do before, he's just kind of like, oh yeah, your pipes are safe. And then she's just able to relax again and getting her in that space where she's being comfortable around him and she's not worried that she's being judged or that she's. She's a. She's reacting poorly in a social situation, which takes up so much of her inner thoughts. It really works for her, and it was really cute. I liked that.

[01:07:37.970] - Beth

I liked Lauren for, so she gets teased and is called a robot. She always kind of maintains this distance. She grew up in the foster care system, and she tells herself she was in a good situation. She ended up with a woman who just had lots of kids coming through. So it wasn't like this person was like, oh, you are my new kid. She gave her everything she needed. She gets a card from this woman once a year. So I think, just unsurprisingly, Lauren uses that sort of distance she grew up with to kind of keep other people at arm's length. And she doesn't just do that with Asa. She does that with all of her friends. Is it Kiki? Her friend? Is that the name? So, like, Kiki also is like, yeah, you kind of. That's kind of the thing you do. You just keep all of us at at a distance.

[01:08:30.510] - Chels

And at the end, she has a big apartment with a bunch of roommates.

[01:08:34.690] - Beth

Yay, character growth. We love it.

[01:08:38.880] - Chels

Yeah. One thing, too, because she. She. I forgot what it was technically called. She does, like, a mentor type thing to kids in the foster care system. And so this was another thing where I was like, oh, how is this gonna go? Because I was a little bit worried that, because she has, like, a direct kid that she's sponsoring, and something that I was kind of worried about was that we were gonna get into, like, maybe the wrong priorities, because I think a lot of people, when they talk about kids in foster care, they're like, oh, you need to get a better home and get adopted by someone else.

[01:09:15.750] - Beth

Yeah.

[01:09:15.920] - Chels

And that's, like, not reunification. Yeah. And so that. That was. That was Lauren's focus. Lauren was actually, like, ended up being an advocate in a lot of ways for the child's mother, which I thought was nice. I was kind of worried for a little bit. Yeah. I guess, too. We haven't really talked so much yet about the settings.

[01:09:40.500] - Beth

So what do you think and the work and, like, the work that they do there, we'll just kind of combine two points. Yeah, I just. I'm kind of obsessed with. I feel like when you think of contemporary, maybe you don't think of a well developed setting, but I don't know. Every book you write, it does need a well developed setting.I feel like I can picture lots of moments of them being in Cold World and different parts of Cold World. Being at Asa's apartment. Them being at the beach. Like, it was just. I feel like I could picture those things pretty well. And then we kind of. Chels has a point here where it's. So Lauren is the bookkeeper, so she's kind of in the office, and Asa's kind of doing a bunch. I don't know if anyone's ever worked at a restaurant where you just get good at multiple jobs and you kind of do lots of different things. And that's kind of how Asa is. So there's that kind of divide. This is Chels' point between the office employees, and I guess you have front of house.

[01:10:43.130] - Chels

I said front of house. I don't know what you call it.

[01:10:47.460] - Beth

It kind of feels like that, though. Except back of house in a restaurant, they're also expensive.

[01:10:51.400] - Chels

Back of house. Yeah, back of house. And a restaurant is harder. So that's maybe not the best.

[01:10:56.250] - Beth

And it's not like, white collar, blue collar. It's just like. I think it's just. Yeah, like, office worker minimum. Not minimum wage, but feels like maybe.

[01:11:05.910] - Emma

Like, physical and mental labor. Like, that there's. And I think those stratifications, I think, just tend to happen organically in lots of settings. Like, that is a. If someone. If someone's sitting inside with AC, that is, they're gonna have a different outlook on life than someone who's out and about tinkering.

[01:11:24.580] - Chels

Well, the way that, like, your. Your body starts to deteriorate when you do physical labor all this constantly, all the time. You're on your feet all day. Like, no matter how, even if it's just cashier work. Like, just cashier work. Cashier work actually hurt my feet the most.

[01:11:45.880] - Beth

Yeah.

[01:11:46.230] - Chels

Like, standing in one spot.

[01:11:50.880] - Beth

It's crazy to me. Like, you can still do the same job, but I don't want that person to have feet or knee problems.

[01:11:58.880] - Chels

Yeah, it's. And it's something. This is something that Asa brings up a lot in a way that I would. I wouldn't say that he's a chip on his shoulder about it, but he does. He's like. He's like, oh, you can online shop while you're working. Yeah.

[01:12:14.320] - Beth

He teases her a bit, and she's, like, a little embarrassed because she has. Who amongst us hasn't done a little online shopping at their office job?

[01:12:24.320] - Chels

Yeah. Yeah. And that's just something that's not really a reality in a lot of, like, in some. Sometimes it can be sometimes you might have a retail job where you can check your phone all the time, and I feel like any sort.

[01:12:39.150] - Beth

Of retail job I've ever had. Like, you kind of have to look busy. I used to. There was I used to stay time.

[01:12:45.030] - Chels

Doing time to clean.

[01:12:46.260] - Beth

Yeah. I love Drew Talbert. Oh, is that his last name, Drew? He's on. It's on.

[01:12:53.200] - Emma

Oh, like, this is coming.

[01:12:55.210] - Beth

I don't remember.

[01:12:56.110] - Emma

Is that his last name?

[01:12:57.070] - Chels

Oh, I can't watch. Restaurant skits.

[01:13:00.380] - Beth

Bistro Huddy. That's—so Drew from Bistro Huddy. Anyway. Yeah. You got time to lean. You got time to clean. But I had a. I had a co worker from Staples. He would just pick up an object and then walk around the aisles, like he was gonna put it away when we were not busy, because the management would get mad at you if you. You were hyper surveilled. Yeah. You're under surveillance when you're in those kinds of jobs.

[01:13:23.640] - Chels

So it's. Yeah. And I. That's kind of another thing, too. Like, Asa's place at Cold World. Like, because you can get jobs, like, cold. Like, at Cold World, Asa is kind of able to. It's like a. It's a nice place for him to work. It's comfortable. He's been there for ten years, so it's not like, one of these jobs. He jokes about it being minimum wage when he started. He started when he was 18 right when he got kicked out of. So there's kind of towards the end of the book, there's kind of this question. It seems like Cold World might get sold to venture capitalists, and Lauren is going to go part time, which means that she will eventually go no time, which means that Asa's feeling like people are, like, life is kind of, like, getting less comfortable for him. And I liked how that worked because I think that treating Asa's job like a stopgap or a fake job would have annoyed me also.

[01:14:23.880] - Beth

But he really, like, he loves his job. Yeah, he does love it. He has all these ideas he wants to implement with Cold World, and I really liked that part of it.

[01:14:36.680] - Chels

Yeah. And he's kind of, he's one of those people. Like, you ever work somewhere where someone's been there for so long, and they're the just so ingrained into the culture, not just the tasks that they have to do, but it's going to work is also going to see them? That's kind of Asa's role at Cold World, but, yeah. So the end is kind of this turning point where he has. He's kind of willingly making himself uncomfortable, first for. First with his sister, first with his family. And so it kind of makes sense that all of this would happen at the same time because, you know, he's found Cold World. When he got kicked out, he's figuring out his. And not figuring out his end. Like, he's reconciling with them, and it's gonna be okay, but he's doing something that he's wanted to do but hasn't really thought of or thought was possible. And then he's also realizing that maybe Cold World is done for him. Even though it's. He loved it. He met Lauren there. He met Kiki there. It was a great job for him, but it's just. It's just time for him to find something new.

[01:15:58.780] - Chels

And I think that the way that that was written was really, really good. I really liked it. When I think of, you know, workplace contemporary romance, I do always think of office jobs. How boring. And so. And so. This was quite fun. And, yeah, jobs can be anything. Like, I liked it a lot. I thought it was very cute.

[01:16:25.360] - Beth

It's good. Let's go to the next book, because I feel like, yes.

[01:16:30.520] - Emma

Yeah. So the first of our heavy books, I recommended Bed of Spices by Barbara Samuels to Chels. So I feel usually, like, when I'm asking Chels to read a book, I'm asking them because I want to figure out how I feel about it. So when I read this book, it was kind of new to me, like, a new type of romance to me. And I'm still sort of, like, thinking about, like, where does it fit in? I did enjoy reading it. I wouldn't have recommended it to Chels if I hadn't. But it's just. There's just a lot to think about with it. So I got this recommendation on a list of non regency romances from from Dear Author, which is a review website that I know shaped Chels' taste a lot in early days of their romance reading. Like, a lot of the books that are sort of like Reformed Rakes canon now because they're Chels favorites, I think came from dear author. And they just. They have, like, a really sort of, like, singular takes a lot of the time. And it was unlike anything I had ever read. I think maybe the closest to Stormfire as far as, like, the feelings I had when I was reading it, but it's not a bodice ripper.

[01:17:24.560] - Emma

And I think also I remembered when I read it the first time, it kind of reminded me of Lady Gallant by Suzanne Robinson, mostly in Samuel's writing style, which are two books that I read on the Chels's recommendation. So something we talk a lot about is the division that people make between historical romance and historical romance. I don't know if that emphasis was clear. I'm doing capital R historical romance versus capital H historical romance. Chels and I both have talked about how this distinction, we think, is sometimes used to deride books that are heftier or sadder or more researched as less romantic. People will say that doesn't read romance. It reads more like historical fiction. And so they'll capitalize the H. This book is not only really grounded in its history, it's also the history that it's connected to is one of the most harrowing historical things that I can think of, which is the Strasbourg massacre of 1339, which was one of the earliest pogroms against Jewish people in medieval Europe. So I think there's sometimes received wisdom that romance shouldn't take place near or around really upsetting things, that there are certain things that are off limits as far as settings for romance goes.

[01:18:28.620] - Emma

And I think this kind of edges on something that maybe some people would think, like, there should never be a romance that's set around this thing. But I really loved reading this book, and coupled with the really harrowing history, is a very sweet romance between this, like, cross-cultural couple. And so I wanted Chels to read it so we could talk about it, and I could maybe work through some of my thornier thoughts about it.

[01:18:50.770] - Chels

I really liked it. I think this is very unique. Samuel is very talented, and there are some really, really beautiful dialogue in there, too. So, yeah, there are a lot to think about. I've been thinking about it since I've read it, so I'm glad that we can kind of talk about it here. So I will go ahead and give a plot summary. Frederica, who more commonly goes by Rica, is a Christian daughter of a local lord outside of Strasbourg. She has a twin sister named Etta, who was viciously attacked as a child and now refuses to speak to anyone but Rica, and only in private. Rica frequently goes to an herbalist's cottage, where she meets the son of a local merchant named Solomon. They are immediately smitten with each other, but Rica is dismayed to find out Solomon is Jewish, meaning that they are completely off limits for each other. They can't keep away from each other, though they continue to meet, sometimes accidentally, which they agree feels fated and sometimes by appointment. It's extremely dangerous and could get both of them killed, but they both think separately that it would be worth it. Meanwhile, Rica's father is trying to marry her off to one of his vassals named Ranulf

[01:20:01.750] - Chels

Etta is in love with Ranulf, so Rica and Etta trade places to confuse him with Etta, acting uncharacteristically bold and flirtatious, pretending to be Rica. This plan backfires. Ranulf only gets more and more aggressive with Etta, who he thinks is Rica, and exceedingly determined to bring Rica under his thumb. One day, when they are about to make love in a forest, Solomon's father catches him with Rica, and he viciously beats Solomon, warning the couple that if someone who loves Solomon could do this, imagine what someone who hates him would do. Solomon pushes Rica away and decides to leave for the city of Montpellier, where he was studying medicine. Dejected, Rica finally agrees to marry Ranulf, but Etta drugs her and switches places with her so that she can marry Ranulf instead. Etta was severely wounded from her childhood attack in a way that makes sex extremely painful, and Ranulf is rough and cruel with her. When he attempts to consummate their marriage, Rica finds out later that Etta was killed by highwaymen. But she believes that Ranulf actually killed her. Since nobody knows, aside from the immediate family, that Etta was the one that married Ranulf, word spreads that Rica has died.

[01:21:13.220] - Chels

This devastates Solomon, who deeply regrets turning his back on her. For her own safety, Solomon contracts the plague, but he is able to heal. He returns to Strasbourg, where he sees Rica, who is still pretending to be Etta. He is not fooled. He would recognize Rica anywhere. After an emotional reunion, they agree to marry. With rising anti Jewish sentiment during the plague, Strasbourg is not a safe place to be. So they plan to settle in Cairo. The final act of the book tracks one of the darkest moments in history, the pogroms in Strasbourg, resulting in angry townspeople burning thousands of Jewish people. Rica's father traps her in the castle while this is happening, so she watches the smoke rise from the city, thinking that Solomon is dead. Solomon did not die. He later arrives at the castle disguised as a priest, saying that his father saved his life but chose not to come with him to safety. In the epilog, Rica and Solomon have built a new life in Cairo, safe from the dangers of Strasbourg. So I think I texted you this, but the meet cute of Solomon and Rica reminded me of Forever and Ever by Patricia Gaffney.

[01:22:25.180] - Chels

Like, they were instantly smitten with each other, and it was so cute. But then they find out a piece of information that sours that infatuation. So when Rica finds out that Solomon is Jewish, she's not upset because she's a bigot. She's upset because that means that they have no future.

[01:22:43.940] - Emma

Yeah. It is so sweet. And I think I've been thinking a lot about the setting of this book. I know we talk about setting a lot with books, but this one is so specific. And I wouldn't fault anyone for not wanting to read a book that is set during the pogroms. It's very upsetting to read about. But I think there's a difference between this, and I do think there are some sort of cross-cultural romances between oppressor and someone who's being oppressed that it's like, that's not what I want to read or I want to be out in the world. But Rica doesn't really hold bigoted beliefs, and I think Samuel does a good job of explaining that this is not, there are bigots in this world who are anti-Semitic. And obviously commit the violence against Jewish people. But for Rica, it really is just sort of like, it's not even something she ever considered, like, that they could get married. She has no sort of secret beliefs about Solomon, that his Judaism is the problem. It's more like it's not even on the table. And that's the issue that she has. And I think Samuel does a good job of, of keeping Rica sympathetic, and it's still romantic.

[01:23:49.460] - Emma

And so that you're able to enjoy the romance without thinking like, oh, he's falling in love with someone who is his direct oppressor. It's more like they're just from separate communities because also at this point, they don't realize how bad Strasbourg is sort of one of the first really terrible pogroms. So Solomon is just a different, he's just in a different community, more than a direct. I don't know if Solomon feels oppressed by the Christian community. It's more like we just are separate in Strasbourg.

[01:24:18.270] - Chels

Yeah. And there is kind of like a sort of, even before you get to the pogroms, there's this sense of danger. Like, they both kind of acknowledge that if they were caught together while they are trysting in the woods or something, both of them would be killed. It's not just Solomon. It's a danger for both of them because they're in these stratified communities that are not supposed to mix.

[01:24:46.710] - Beth

Yeah.

[01:24:47.050] - Emma

And I think she also does a good job of, because of Rica's backstory with her sister Etta, and also Solomon's sort of privileged position within the Jewish community as this person setting to be a doctor, they have different levels, and they discuss this with each other, like, different levels of being able to rebel against their community. Solomon, though, he is in the community that is most threatened with danger. Rica is really in danger in her own home in a way that is sort of very clear from the beginning because Ranulf is so looming in this danger and this threat, even when Etta is sort of trying to flirt with him, Ranulf, we know very early, is not someone that we want to be around these characters. So they're personal and political stakes for both of them. And Solomon recognizes that he, in some ways, has more power than Rica, like, to leave. Like, he's able to go and study medicine in a way that, like, Rica couldn't leave her house as a response to being caught.

[01:25:43.270] - Chels

Yeah, she has. She has a lot fewer choices. And I think that's kind of what if I'm remembering correctly, that's kind of where she's at this moment, where at the beginning of the book, her father is looking at her like, okay, it's time for you and your sister to get married. Her life, as she knows it is about to end. But I think she's, like, at different. She's sort of grasping that. Like, she sort of knows that she's reaching a turning point, but she also. I don't think she's, like, fully realized what Ranulf would mean for her because she doesn't really. She doesn't actually realize that he's the one that her father has picked for her. I don't think that's something that I said in the summary. Like, it's a surprise to her. She thinks she's, like, being clever and pairing him off with Etta, but in all actuality, he's holding this candle for Rica, and he's the person that her father has contracted her to.

[01:26:45.960] - Emma

Yeah. And it's a surprise to her because I don't think Rica would not be setting, like, encouraging Etta, because Rica does really care for Etta, like, any. That is, like, sort of the defining relationship her. Until she meets Solomon, that she is making sure that Etta is okay and they have this closeness and affection. And Etta is a very complicated character in the book because I think it's sort of, you peel back the layers, and you realize how, like, you know, that what happened, Samuel doesn't explain the details of what happened to her, but, you know, it was very traumatic. And then sort of Etta's grasp on reality is sort of, you realize throughout the book is maybe not as strong as Rica thought. It was like, that her silence was maybe her sort of, like, losing, more grounding than even Rica realizes.

[01:27:34.160] - Chels

Yeah. And I know that we're gonna talk more about Etta in a little bit, or, I mean, we can actually talk about it now, actually, now that we're. Yeah, because, so Etta feels like she's really getting a raw deal. So she in the. In the story. And I think that kind of when we talked about it a little bit after we both read it you mentioned that this was one of the most upsetting parts of the book for you, and I think for me, too. So Etta was raped as a young child, and as you were mentioning, she has been, like, nearly silent since. And Rica is her only confidante. So she's spurned into breaking out of Rochelle because of her love for Ranulf. But his increasingly erratic behavior confuses and frightens her, but she won't let go of, like, this dream that she has of him. There's this incredibly cruel moment where Ranulf realizes that he's largely been deceived and that the woman he loves is actually Etta. But he tells her when he finds out that he loves Etta, he's with Etta, he says, you should go to a nunnery, because I have no use for a woman who's been defiled.

[01:28:40.040] - Chels

So it's this incredibly cruel moment. And, yeah, so that's kind of the. And then, of course, like, towards the end, she marries Ranulf. In Rica's stead, pretending to be Rica. There's a very violent scene where he assaults her, and it's implied that he's the cause of her death. So it's a very, very tragic end for Eda. And so I guess, kind of circling back to what you were saying before, that little summary about Etta's silence. It seems like there was from her young childhood to late teens, I believe they are, is this period where she has no communication with anyone but Rica. And so that has to really stifle your ability to interact with people or to read people in a way where, like, Ranulf could be telling her things, and she's maybe not because she's not been having conversations with men. She hasn't been flirting. Like, she's not really. Maybe she's missing some warning signs not to. I don't know, not to put that back on Etta because he's. Yeah, he's bad.

[01:29:54.110] - Emma

Well, I think also Rica has this sense because she's been Etta's filter through the world. I think Rica is surprised at Etta's grownupness. She kind of treats her like a child. And so when Edda is sort of sexually interested in Ranulf or wants to go with him or is having these sort of same feelings that Rica is having towards Solomon, Rica is surprised by that and doesn't know what to do with it. And I think that's one of those moments where I think Samuel complicates Rica a little bit, because Rica is sort of patronizing to Edda and treats her like a child, even, I think, are they twins? They're identical twins because they can switch places. So, yeah, Rica's very motherly towards her, and just because she has this sort of disability, I think Rica has not understood the level of both growth that Etta has gone through. It's like she's becoming a woman as well, but also that growth is sort of manifested in a way someone who doesn't know what to do with it. And so I think Rica assumes that she could protect Etta and, like, will, but. And doesn't.

[01:31:00.640] - Emma

Doesn't realize that she. She can't. She can't, both because of Etta's sort of. She has her own mind and makes her own decisions and because she doesn't realize how violent Randolph is.

[01:31:12.140] - Chels

Yeah. It's like, it's a very naïve thing for. For Rica to look at Etta and be like, for your own good, you're gonna have a flirtation and you're going to. You're gonna be me, and then kind of not anticipate the fallout of what if Rica behaved that way? Like, what would Ranulf? Well, I mean, I guess kind of to circle back. She is hoping to set them up, but I feel like she hasn't really thought that through because she's not really fully seeing Etta as a person capable of a marriage.

[01:31:51.020] - Emma

Right. Yeah, I think that's. I think that's it, is that she. She thinks that Etta is. Is childlike and that everyone sees her that way. But also, Ranulf doesn't see her that way because he thinks she's Rica. And also, Etta doesn't see that herself that way. And so she. She just doesn't feel like she has. She has the skillset to deal with this problem. And so it's just this you're watching it and you're waiting for the other shoe to drop the whole time. And I think Samuel. I think Samuel does pull back from some of the violence of the pogroms. So a lot of that stuff happens off page while this is I feel like you're in it a little bit more. And so this is the thing that comes to closest to something like storm fire, where you're just reading it and you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe this is in this book or that this is happening.

[01:32:31.650] - Chels

Yeah. It's so sad. It's something that I was thinking about a lot after.

[01:32:39.580] - Emma

I think it's typical of these older romance. I think it's like, yeah, I mean, I don't know if this book would be written now, but if it were, I don't think this would happen. Etta would be saved. I think. I think there would be some sort of grand moment where we pull Etta back from from danger. And it's like, yeah, it's a happily ever after for Solomon and Rica, but it's not a happily after for most of their family, like, both Solomon's family and Enriquez.

[01:33:03.800] - Chels

Yeah. And I think it's also, I think it's really bold of Samuel to have Rica make a mistake that has consequences. Yeah. Because Rica is living with the guilt of her sister's death, and she kind of consigns herself to her sister's life partially as a response to that and also just partially makes people think that she's actually dead. And so that's something that she's going to be carrying with her. And it's uncomfortable to read, but it's also uncomfortable. Rica, so I think that is, I don't want to say I liked it because I think that it just made me so sad, but I do. But I guess I do. I think that I would prefer having some sort of having something that Rica did have a consequence that was not just like star crossed lovers. Wherever it's the world is working against you, and it's all these evil forces. The way that you move throughout the world will impact other people. And sometimes your silly jokes are not silly jokes anymore. But I guess moving back to the actual romance because this, as we were talking about, so sweet. And then one thing that I love, that Samuel emphasized how this burgeoning love built in secret, means that Rica and Solomon don't actually know each other by the time that it gets serious.

[01:34:35.540] - Chels

So Solomon sees the castle, and he knows that he can never enter, but he wonders about Ricas life there. And then, similarly, when Rica visits Strasbourg one time in an emergency to buy medicine for her father, she sees Solomon at work, and he's in a completely different context than she's known him before. And the quote from the book is, and here Rica saw him anew again, not a boyish rogue or a forbidding man or her passionate lover, but the son of a Jewish merchant who had a life so different from her own, a life he'd owned before she came into it, a life with which he would continue when the storm of this day passed. And I think that is maybe one of the most romantic things, I think because it's just like she's seeing him and she's realizing that he, Solomon outside of the forest or Solomon outside of their trysting areas. Solomon is a completely different person who has a life, a family, traditions, like all of these parts of him that she's completely foreign to her. But she's seeing that, and it's making her sad because she wants to know him.

[01:35:46.330] - Chels

She wants to know him better because she loves her Solomon, and she wants to love all of the other things about Solomon as well.

[01:35:55.790] - Emma

Yeah, it is. It's so romantic. And I think it's one of those things that, again, I think if I were pitching this book to someone who was maybe skeptical of cross cultural romances between a class that is clearly an oppressor and someone who's clearly the oppressed, I think back again to Lisa Kleypas and the Hathaway's novels. Wherever she has white women marrying Roma men, I think a big problem with those books is how little we see the Roma brothers in Roma culture. It's like they are completely removed from their setting, and that is a boon for the romance, that they are totally integrated into this white English world. And Samuel doesn't do that. We have Solomon exist. He goes back to his family, and we see him in his Jewish community. And it's not. It just makes both worlds are similarly built that we have, like, the Christian German world of Rica and the Jewish world of Solomon. And it's just. They're just their lives. And I think that is one of the things that pushes it into romance and keeps it away from sort of this fetishistic white woman, man of color dynamic that sometimes happens, that there's just a huge tradition and romance is this woman from oppressed class going and so many books in America or something like that with Native American men.

[01:37:18.560] - Emma

And this, I think Samuel pulls it off and just makes Solomon a full person? And also, has Rica acknowledged that. That it's not just the reader who's experiencing Solomon as a full person and, like, that desire to know about his culture and his life and his job. Rica is also acknowledging that she could have a very narrow view of him if she just wanted to keep him in the forest, but she doesn't. She wants to be his partner in his life, and she sort of mourns that before they're able to be together.

[01:37:46.870] - Chels

Yeah. And I like that her faith is very important to her, too. And so when you get kind of to the end, part of. I don't think Rica doesn't convert. I don't believe, but she agrees.

[01:37:59.810] - Emma

I think she's praying at the end. Yeah.

[01:38:01.510] - Chels

Yeah. She agrees to raise her children as Jewish because this is part of. The. Part of something that Solomon tells her is that, we will have protection within my community, if my children are also raised in my faith. And so she, I don't want to frame it as a concession because I don't think Rica minds, but she's able to kind of, like, fit her own faith and with her family, this new community that they have made in Cairo. And it's believable the way that they made it work. And I also think that's another thing, too. I like how Samuel resolved this. The way that I think this would resolve in real life is that a lot of times when you are in a place where you're in imminent danger, you, you leave. Like, if you want to have a love that's accepted somewhere else, you have to leave. And this is also something that's, it kind of happens in Stormfire, too, actually, which is like they, they end up going to America because they're, they have the history of Ireland behind them. But, yeah, I did, I liked how she did that, I guess kind of one more thing to kind of talk about.

[01:39:19.170] - Chels

So, but also maybe the biggest thing. So this book has the Black Death, and it also depicts the lead up to the Strasbourg programs, which we've been kind of talking about and around, which, as you mentioned earlier, happens off page at the end of the book. But it's still very harrowing. So this is a very horrifying part of history. And it works as a backdrop for this romance because Rica and Solomon have this, like, omnipresent dread about their relationship. So I thought we could talk about both real tragedies being depicted in historical romance and the like. This reads more like historical fiction criticism that I sometimes see more challenging. Historical romance get.

[01:40:02.990] - Emma

Yeah, the tragedy thing. And that's one of those things where it's like if someone, I don't think you have to read this book. Like, I don't think you have to read anything. But if, so, this someone's line is that they don't want to read about real tragic things. I think that's fine. Some authors who I really admire and love talk about how they don't want to write books set in tragic, in sort of tragic circumstances. Like Beverly Jenkins talks about how when she writes African American love stories set in the 19th century in America, she doesn't want to write books where people are slaves at the end of it. Like, it's that she, she wants to write books about free African Americans because she doesn't see slavery as romantic. And I think that is a fine line to have both as an author and a reader. But I think this sort of the tragedy. I don't know. I think it's. I also don't think if that's your line, I think it's also important that you don't write off the existence of other books, the existence of these books where tragic things are happening, that it's more about execution than just, like, the.

[01:41:04.470] - Emma

The setting and the fact that it's a romance, I think that is. Is hard. I mean, I also probably have a personal line of some tragedies where I'm like, I don't. I don't. I wouldn't want to read that book, and maybe I don't think it should be written. So I don't know.

[01:41:18.280] - Chels

Yeah, I think. I think the fact that a lot of it happens off page is doing a lot. Like, I think if we were in the thick of it maybe that would be really different or. But I don't know. I don't know. Because Rica's perspective of this happening, which is where we are when this happening is still horrifying, because when she's watching the smoke billow up and then she's thinking that Solomon is a part of this massacre and that she's gonna be alone for forever. So I. Yeah, I think it is tricky. I think. I think there's tragedy and horrific events, and then there's kind of the. This reads more like historical fiction when criticism that I think that sometimes happen when there's things that are a little bit more difficult to grapple with happens in historical romance or they, like, bring in more historical facts than they might not be used to. I guess I think where I'm getting at this is that I think as I. The more and more I read and the further back into histrom, I get the less patience I have for blanket statements about what it can and can't be and what genre romance is and isn't.

[01:42:44.970] - Chels

And I think, and, yeah, people, you definitely don't have to read this book if it's not something that you're interested in. But it's not just books with pogroms and the black death that get this sort of this reads more like historical fiction criticism. I think it's a lot of times, maybe books that are more challenging in different ways. Like, their length or set during several different periods of history or have heroines with multiple lovers. So I think that it's kind of more of a thing wherever it's something that you're not used to because you're used to the post 1995. Tight 280 to 350 page historical romance in one singular setting, that this might feel like something that's outside of the scope of romance to you, if those are the romances that you primarily consume.

[01:43:42.660] - Emma

Yeah, I think the line that I would have with this book is that you don't have to read it or this could. You don't want to read something tragic, but you can't call this not a romance like it. By all metrics, it is a romance. The romance is central. There's a happily ever after. They are together at the end, even though they've experienced tragedy. And it's like, that's. That's not a disqualifier for a romance. And also, even if it is for you personally, I think it is a discredit to the genre to erase the foundations. It's like we are. We exist in the context of all that came before us. So it's like, even though people are not actually writing these tragic romances, now, your favorite authors read books that were written like this, and so the authors that you're reading, who ostensibly are romance fans, came up by reading bodice rippers, and books were, like, the settings were complicated. And, I mean, also, I. I mean, Chels, I think, and I are on the same page about this. Sometimes these books, they're. They're better books. They're. They're, like. They're more interesting.

[01:44:46.570] - Emma

They're more exciting. There's something different. Um, I I both love the rote aspects of the genre where things are predictable and all exist in a ballroom. Sometimes that's what I want to read. But if that's the only thing that's being published, that is, like, a tragedy for the genre to me. Um, and, yeah, so I do like these. These harder books because I miss them in the current publishing landscape.

[01:45:14.670] - Chels

Okay, so I recommended surrender the night by Christine Monson to Emma. I remember Emma saying, maybe in one of our bonus episodes on Patreon that she wanted to read a historical romance at a set during the unification of Italy, as it's a very fraught of time. That would be interesting to mine. Conflict from Surrender the Night is not quite that, but it's adjacent to it. It starts with an American heiress moving to Italy to live with her new husband, who is this banished Hungarian monarch. The book is primarily set around 1848, which is a year of intense turmoil all throughout Europe. The main couple leave Italy before the Italian revolution start, but revolutions are happening everywhere this year. You have the February revolution in France, the March Revolution in Germany. Many, many others, but most importantly to this book and these characters, the failed Hungarian revolution. So we spoke in our Waterloo episode about historicals using actual events and named historical characters. And I mentioned in that book that old school does this much more often. And I immediately think of Christine Monson here. She has many Charles Alberta, Emperor Ferdinand I, and Queen Victoria, just to name a few.

[01:46:29.430] - Chels

I like how this book is too much. Just like Monson's book Stormfire, which we did a whole episode on last year, is too much. It's stuffed to the gills with pivots and machinations and has some of the most charming dialog I've ever read and also has you deal with a couple that has opposing politics, which doesn't absolve either of them of some of the brutal systems they profit from. I can tell Monson is always thinking about the genre in an explicitly political way, which belies common wisdom that historical romance is purely fantasy and is removed from history. So I wanted to know if Emma had similar thoughts after reading this book.

[01:47:09.250] - Emma

This was a great recommendation on Chels' part. Like, I think my Goodreads review starts with Chels nailed it. This was a great book for me to read after my big Napoleon kick. Like, Napoleon is not in this book because he's dead, but it is very much like fallout of Napoleon post 1815, like all these revolutions in the 19th century. Like the, what he does to the scheme of Europe post 1815 is definitely there. And I mean, I'm just obsessed with Monson. I know Chels, I think you've read all of her books.

[01:47:39.660] - Chels

Like half of them I still have.

[01:47:41.020] - Emma

Okay.

[01:47:41.400] - Chels

Okay.

[01:47:42.320] - Emma

I know there's a finite number of them. There's like half a dozen.

[01:47:45.240] - Chels

Yeah.

[01:47:45.720] - Emma

And I'm like, I don't want to rush through them. But also, it's like, man, when I read one of her books, I'm like, this is one of the best books I've ever read. I felt this way about Stormfire. I think maybe even more about this one than Stormfire. Stormfire took me. It was kind of a, it took a while to like sit with me because it was so harrowing to read. But like this, I would like, reread again immediately. I would really recommend it. If anyone was sort of scared off by Stormfire or has been scared off by Stormfire's, the level of violence in that book, this one is still bodice Ripper, but I think it was just a much more enjoyable read. I think, like when I was actually reading it, though, I think I think about Stormfire and Surrender the Night sort of as equals or counterparts. But I think you could read Stormfire is just like next level, like, sort of anxiety inducing during some of the scenes, but this one, I think was an easier read as far as the violence goes. All right, so I will talk about the plot summary.

[01:48:39.180] - Emma

The plot is a lot, so I do elide some of the details because, like Chels said, there are so many pivots and changes in location, and it's just a wild ride. And so we. I mean, if we did a whole episode on this, it would be as long as our Stormfire episode, because it's a lot happens, but I'm trying to talk about the important stuff. So Eliza Hilliard is at a party with her parents in Newport, Rhode island, for New Year's Eve. They are relatively new money, and Eliza has a limp from a childhood injury, so they're on the outskirts of society looking in. Also, there is Bette, Princess von Schmerling, an Austrian princess. She takes a liking to Eliza, and Eliza's mother is impressed by the princess and invites her to tea. The following week at tea, Bette proposes a plan to Eliza: marry my nephew, a Hungarian prince, Miklos Sztara. She's accompanied by Enzo, Rossi, Miklos' cousin, and explains Miklos need for a wife, given the fraught political situation. He cannot choose a European wife for fear of appearing to choose sides or make an alliance. He needs an obscure American with no loyalties.

[01:49:37.330] - Emma

Eliza thinks the whole thing is a joke, but is interested in getting away from her overbearing mother. She thinks if she goes to Europe and Miklos doesn't like her, which she assumes is a foregone conclusion, he will give her a settlement and she can go on her own way. She marries Miklos on a boat, using Enzo as a proxy. So it's very old school, European style royal marriage. Eliza gets the rundown on Miklos from Bette and Enzo, and knows there's more to the circumstances that were explained to her before she agreed to the plan. He is a Hungarian prince, but he's staying indefinitely on Lake Como in Italy for sort of vague political reasons. When they meet, he immediately kisses her and seems, but seems not to know who she is. Eliza finds him devastatingly charming and handsome, but is just confused by his whole vibe, which is a combination of biting and sullen. She feels like he doesn't want her to, so she wants him to make the settlement on her sooner rather than later. But Miklos keeps dragging his feet and alternately charming and frustrating her. Eventually, he consummates the marriage by force.

[01:50:33.570] - Emma

When she embarrasses him in front of guest as revenge for his visiting a mistress, though Eliza quickly comes around to physical affection with him, though she retains an interest in escaping with her settlement, particularly because she thinks he doesn't love her. It's revealed through guest's and Elizas observations that Miklos is a political prisoner as much she is his personal prisoner. They're able to travel around Europe under the auspices of a honeymoon, but Miklos would be arrested if he returned to Hungary during their honeymoon. They overlap with Bianca on her travels, who's an anarchist assassin that they had welcomed into their Lake Como home. And the political intrigue of the Hungarian situation sort of slowly reveals itself to Eliza. Bianca throughout the whole plot is trying to kill them through bombs and different assassin like things. The Austrian government is also currently trying to suppress hungarian independence, and Miklos is in the middle of it all as a prince and also a potentially inflammatory revolutionary figure. So the rebels are led by real life figure Lajos Kossuth, who Eliza ends up selling guns to because she thinks it will help Miklos, though it actually endangers him.

[01:51:33.220] - Emma

So Eliza has now infiltrated the revolution. The whole political thing is very dramatic and I had to keep Wikipedia up while I was reading the book, but it's very good. The other main plot is about Miklos first wife Loise, who looked eerily similar to Eliza, and this is why Bette chose Eliza as a candidate for Miklos second wife. Miklos is not really over Loise, and again slowly reveals to Eliza the circumstances of her death. They were childhood sweethearts, but Loise took no pleasure in having sex with Miklos that he blames himself for. But she also has a lot of affairs and there's some sort of emotional sort of reticence on her part, when they're having sex, Miklos discovers her with his brother Peter and has had a gun in his hand, but she jumped out the window before Miklos could decide if he was going to shoot her or not. So he blames himself for her death, though he didn't literally kill her, though people sort of have rumors that he was involved. Boys had been enraptured by Rakoczy, a Rasputin-like manipulative revolutionary, in order to disclose information about her affairs. And he uses this to manipulate Miklos, which is one of the reasons he gets involved.

[01:52:32.700] - Emma

And so the revolutionary politics. Rakoczy is the final villain that tries to separate and kill Miklos and Eliza, but he is murdered by Miklos before he can hurt Eliza, they sneak out of the country by hiding in a coffin with the help of a priest. And they go to America. They have a bunch of kids and then do sort of a Hungarian national identity propaganda tour. Since Americans are so fascinated by royalty. So that's where they end up is in America sort of arguing for Hungarian independence, like by proxy through propaganda on like trains and stuff. So that I. That's probably like 30% of the plot, but that. Those are the hits, the highlights. Yeah, so, I mean, the. We could definitely talk about it in relation to Stormfire because that is, I guess, like the baseline. We have an episode about Stormfire. And it's also like what I was thinking about a lot with, like, Stormfire, I guess, is the, the Monson that everybody knows. That's the one that people talk about as this. Like you mentioned that it's an outlier for Monson, but people talk about it as if it's an outlier for romance, that nothing else exists, like Stormfire.

[01:53:35.050] - Emma

But this book is a lot like Stormfire. Like I said in the intro, it was easier for me to read than Stormfire, though that may honestly be because it was my second monsoon. But it's the sort of winding path. And also I think the effort it expects of you as a reader is very high. Like, the fact, I mean, I literally, I had Wikipedia open the whole time I was reading it because I could never tell if, like, if I was meeting a character. I was like, is this a real person? Like, I want to know if they're, like a real figure and when they were real people. It was so funny that how often I would read a Wikipedia article and just like, get my sense of who they are. And then two paragraphs later, Monson would be able to pull off a joke that's about, like, a trait that I just learned about the person. And I was like, she's. So she doesn't have Wikipedia. She's doing all this research on her own. Like, I can't believe how astute she is talking about this sort of, she's so integrated into the history.

[01:54:25.850] - Chels

She's a nerd. Like, yeah, it's so good. Well, the one I wrote down, which, like, stuck with me as this, she has this quote, what sort of man is Charles Albert? And then Bette answers, history will probably say he confused his enemies and friends alike. He's politically fidgety, which makes everyone else fidgety.

[01:54:46.480] - Emma

Yes. And if you read Charles Albert's Wikipedia page, he is like, he's a turncoat. He goes back and forth all the time. And it's like, this is absolutely his legacy. And she just has this, like, throwaway, very astute political joke about him that is. It's obviously from original research. It's not Charles Albert, I can't imagine appears in any other romance novel. It's so. It's so funny, and it's like, I was so delighted to be able to understand the joke she was making by learning more about the history of the Hungarian revolution.

[01:55:21.510] - Chels

Yeah, she's very clever. And I had that same experience where I'm looking up what's the characters as I'm going along, and I'm just kind of like, I can't believe she's doing this without the Internet, ostensibly. I can't.

[01:55:37.280] - Emma

Yes.

[01:55:38.040] - Chels

She, she just knows all of this information about all of these very, and this is not, nobody was writing this setting like, this is.

[01:55:47.330] - Emma

It's one thing to make a joke about the Prince Regent in a Regency ballroom, but to Charles Albert is just like Charles Albert, to be clear. He's like a prince. He's a right. He's like some sort of royal. Yeah, but he's the house of Savoy, which is an Italian house. It's outstanding what she's able to pull off that coupled with, and so I guess this is one thing that is different about this than Stormfire is how. How quickly Eliza and Miklos are so cute together. Like, I didn't know Monson could be cute because their sort of dynamic is, it has this, like, contention, and there is bodice, like, I don't want to call it not a bodice or her, because their first time they have sex, he does take her by force, but there's this dynamic where it's like she's poking and prodding. She doesn't really realize the danger that they're in. She's just like, I don't know what's going on, and I'm smart enough to have this information, and I want this information. So she doesn't, Eliza initially doesn't know, like, when the guests come and Bianca is there and she's an assassin, she doesn't realize the danger that she's in until a bomb goes off, but she just wants information from Miklos.

[01:56:55.610] - Emma

And so you get this, these really sweet scenes where she's trying to learn about his world. Like, I love the scene when they go fishing, and he's like, you don't know how to fish. And she's like, why would I know how to fish? Like, in what circumstances would I know how to fish? And he tries to. He tries to teach her, and she. She casts her line, and then the hook gets stuck in his shirt. And so she has to, like, waddle over and pull the hook out of his shirt. And it's just that, that scene that's so intimate and sweet feels very typical of romance. But, like, I can't imagine that happening in Stormfire where, like, that scene would happen, and I wouldn't expect, like, something terrible to happen immediately afterwards.

[01:57:32.320] - Chels

Yeah, they had a camaraderie where it was. It was kind of. He was kind of. It's hard to. How do I describe their relationship? Miklos had an exasperated infatuation with Eliza. Like, he was always kind of like, I guess, but he also really liked her. It was very, very cute. And then Monson also, like, I have several lines from Stormfire that I have memorized, because I think about. It's just like, wow, this is one of those beautiful things that I've ever read. I think, like, the. "It's you, fair Diana, who must lower me and all my bleeding dreams to dust." Like, I think about that all the time, but she does it here, too. So I wrote down this quote where Eliza is talking to Miklos. "'But I was never enough for you, was I?' She murmured. 'Enough?' His voice became husky. 'I'll never see your like again, you Circe. Like a will-o'the-wisp. You will haunt me through every bend in eternity.'"

[01:58:30.830] - Emma

Also, if I'm from 19th-century Boston and then I go to Europe and this Hungarian prince is saying these things to me. Like, you understand why Eliza gets on board very quickly. Like, it's so sweet. Yeah. I would look at my notes. It's like the. The fishing scene is so funny. I say that it's like it's out of a Susan Elizabeth Phillips book. Like, that's how funny it was to me. Like, reading this sort of screwball comedy, like physical comedy sort of thing. I couldn't. I couldn't believe that this was in a Monson book. And the fact that she has that, like, that quote, plus a funny scene, like, the fishing scene, plus the fact that it's a bodice ripper all in one book, while she's making these very esoteric jokes about Hungarian politics. It's outstanding that she's able to pull this off. I just. I don't think anyone. She may be the best romance writer, like, writer ever. Like, I can't believe how good, how much she holds in one book. The other thing that I really liked about this book, this is something I think Chels and I both have frustrations with this, where when authors talk about art in books, it can feel very clunky.

[01:59:35.500] - Emma

And when they talk about people creating art or that art decorates a house, it feels like very surface level understanding of, like, art. And it just. It's one of those things that stands out like a sore thumb when someone is not comfortable doing it. I think Monson does this really well in this book for world building. So there's this quote of all these, like, very specific Italian art historical, art historical references that I just thought was delightful. So when it's when Eliza comes to the house for the first time, she's sort of looking around. And Eliza knows a lot about art because she was injured as a child. So she has this sort of, like, bookish quality. So she has a lot of knowledge about history and art that serves her well. So the natural magnificence of the view was counterpointed by the room's della Robbia medallions and a Medici commissioned battle scene by Uccello that hung on the western wall. As she was looking over the minor paintings and having a final cup of cappuccino, the dining room's double doors opened. And so we have three sort of two really specific art history references there.

[02:00:32.080] - Emma

And something about the della Robbia medallions feels like it's next level art history reference. We're not getting references. When you read late 19th century stuff and someone has a Monet in their apartment or something, and it's like, oh, this is like you just googled 19th century artist. Della Robbia is so. Is so. Della Robbia is a Tuscan terracotta artist. So he makes. He makes these kind of creepy terracotta things that have a glaze over them. And there's white figures with these really beautiful colors. But they're very. This decorative art thing, it's very a natural sort of discussion of decorative art for world building. And it never took me out. It always felt like I could just see the rooms that she was describing so well. And again, I think it just reveals that, like, Monson knows her stuff and is just, like, a nerd about this stuff, that she's not going to make a reference if it doesn't, like, serve the narrative. But also, she has all of this at her disposal, because she just knows. So. Also, I think it's great that Eliza is the one describing so many other rooms, because Eliza is overwhelmed by everything.

[02:01:40.200] - Emma

But she's naming things as she's going around, she's like, I'm grounding myself by saying, like, oh, I recognize the Della Robbias. And I think it just works really well.

[02:01:48.980] - Chels

Yeah, she's so great at that. This is something that I wrote about when I wrote about Stormfire, but something kind of before when you research Monson, because a lot of the stuff that was her former, it's been updated since, but her former Goodreads profile and fantastic fiction were very grim and, yeah, and kind of made it seem like she had this, like, really like she was framed in a way. It was like she wrote Stormfire so salacious, and then was humiliated by her romance writing career, and then she fell off. And it was just, it was just so weird and grim. And then when I was looking into her and one thing, one of the things in her obituary is her ex-husband talking about her. And he, and he was talking about how she was so good at recognizing value in objects. Like, she would break for maple dressers is something like—

[02:02:53.480] - Emma

That's so sweet! And that's the kind of stuff I love at obits. I have a few Google alerts that deliver me obits, and I love reading them. Um, because it's. I love when someone includes a detail that's like, oh, like, this person was beloved and someone noticed this detail about them. I love that.

[02:03:10.240] - Chels

Yeah. And I, and I just felt like I knew her so much better from that detail. It's, it's like she's she's not this violent, tragic. She's like someone who's, she's a nerd. She loves art. She loves beauty. Like, Stormfire is a book of it is very violent, but it's very beautiful in a lot of ways. And also, she's like, she's extremely political. She has a point of view. And I think that's another thing about this book that was so when you think about this in Stormfire, when people are talking about Stormfire being an outlier, I'm like, what are you talking about? Because Surrender the Night is kind of the same. It's like, major conflict. You also have the main couple being on opposite sides of that conflict at certain points. Like, Eliza is actively working against Miklos at points. But then also, and also one of the most tense portions of the book is when. And also something that I think was really interesting is when you think of European nobility. Like, a lot of them are impoverished. And this is actually Miklos reality when they get back to Hungary. And so he takes her back to his home, and they have Miklos warning of a serf revolt.

[02:04:36.530] - Chels

So we have a couple now who have serfs, and this one quote from Monson where Eliza says: "'Why do you think they'll revolt?' She protested." And then he says, "'After all you've done for them?' He finished for her. 'My love, you are but a ripple on the sea of historical persecution. When the tide begins to rise, neither kings nor princes will stay it.'" And I just. I love this quote. I think it's so clever, because Monson is communicating that there's literally no way that Eliza, with her position, can be an ally with people who are subservient to her by force. Like, she. She makes you kind of look at these characters and kind of grapple with them and what they're complicit in in a way that I think most historical romance authors wouldn't even bother with.

[02:05:27.300] - Emma

Yeah. And that's one of the boons of setting something in setting something in a period where your readers are probably not going to know a lot about this. Like, sometimes when I read older historical romances, it's a set during a time period where I think maybe people used to know more about this period, and so, like. And we've lost some historical knowledge. But I don't think any reader. Like, I don't think Monson ever assumes that a reader knows a ton about the Hungarian Revolution. And so. But then we get. Because of that, we don't. I don't come in with preconceived notions about, like, who's on the right side. And so Miklos and I think Eliza and Miklosboth sort of have complicated politics. Like, Miklos is noble, but also, he knows that his time is over. He knows that, like, I. The way that I was raised is not long for this world. Well, Eliza is sort of sometimes trying to extend things. It's like, why can't this work? Why can't Miklos stay in Hungary? And she doesn't understand that because she's coming in as an outsider.

[02:06:23.370] - Emma

And so there's. There's not, like, a good. A good side. And, like, the. Like, Rakoczy, who's, like, the Rasputin figure is revolutionary, but also is trying to kill the couple that we care about. And so it's like, if I were a Hungarian peasant in this universe, maybe I would feel differently about rooting for him to get his comeuppance, maybe I want Miklos dead. And so that everyone has these sort of complicated things, it's like, yeah, revolution. And sort of shirking hundreds of years of aristocracy is often violent and often personal sort of relationships. You lose the stakes of those when they are subsumed by political stakes. And Monson doesn't pull away from that. We don't need the hero to be totally perfect because also, I think it would be hard for him to be totally perfect in the Hungarian revolution stakes, where I, as the reader, don't have those coming in. I don't know what side I need him to be on. So Monson just lets him be complicated.

[02:07:25.920] - Chels

I've liked that a lot. I think every book that I've read of hers, I can tell that she's thinking deeply about it. And she's not necessarily trying to communicate that the actions that her characters are taking are righteous, but she is trying to communicate to you what they mean for the characters and for all of the people around them in a way that is very, very well researched and also, like, very thoughtful and compassionate, too.

[02:07:55.890] - Emma

She's so smart. That's. That's the thing, is that I just. Nobody else. Nobody does. Nobody else does this. Nobody else. Like, maybe. I think maybe the closest of this, like, level of research would maybe the. The Bliss and Dance by Judy Cuevas. But those are. Those do. Are a little more removed from politics and fraught political moments. But I think that sort of level of new world building where it's like, nobody else has written a book set like this, and I'm just totally in this world. That's the only thing that I can think that I feel that much in history. While the romance is still so compelling.

[02:08:35.610] - Chels

I would love. I think if anyone's going to do it, it's going to be this podcast. But I would love for people to talk about Monson differently than they do. And so I think that would require more people to read her work, and she's like, sadly out of print. But. But that's why I'm so glad that we have this. This platform, because, like, our episode of on Stormfire is very special to me because I. I get so annoyed with the way that people talk about that book, and I. Less people are talking about surrender of the night, like, quite a few less people. But I think it's. It's, um, it's a similar feat.

[02:09:09.130] - Emma

Or in your case, if you've read this book and you don't like Eliza, you're wrong. That's the main thing that I got. So I didn't read Goodreads reviews until I finished the book. And I think maybe I'll even on Chels' recommendations don't spoil it, but also you'll get mad. And I got mad. Eliza is so fun as a heroine, I think, because she's so curious and I don't know why people wouldn't like her. Her. Sometimes I understand when people don't like a difficult female character, but Eliza is so charming and interested in the world around her that it's like, I'm so glad that I got to spend time in her mind. And that's how, I mean, even different than Stormfire. I think in Stormfire, Catherine is. I feel sad sometimes being in her mind, but Eliza, I just wanted to spend time with her thoughts.

[02:10:00.820] - Chels

She's really fun.

[02:10:03.060] - Beth

Yes. So next we're going to talk about Thirsty by Mia Hopkins. And I recommended this to Emma. Emma keeps trying to read contemporary and in fairness, struggles to find something that she enjoys. I think the lack of familiarity in a genre, I think you struggle to find your standby authors, you're new, you're trying to find the people that you like. For example, I really like Jeannie Chin's Return to Cherry Blossom way, but the other two books in that series are just books. So even with your standby authors, I feel like I'm kind of balking at coming out and just saying that I think the trash to good ratio and contemporary romance has higher on the trash end of things.

[02:10:45.170] - Emma

You said it, I didn't.

[02:10:46.550] - Beth

Yeah, I might cut this. Lots of good contemporary, obviously. I just.

[02:10:54.130] - Emma

Yeah, I don't feel skilled at picking it out. That's the thing, is, like, I. Yeah.

[02:10:58.080] - Beth

That might be it, too. I think.

[02:10:59.820] - Emma

I just don't. I feel. I feel like I know pretty early when I'm reading historical, whether to DNF or not, but, like, I'll hear someone heartily recommend a contemporary and I'll have no idea whether I would like it or not. Unless, I mean, even with you and Chels, it's like, I think there's contemporary stuff that y'all like that I don't necessarily enjoy, but it's like, you have to recommend it to me is like, oh, I think you would like this based on your historical taste. And every time I read one that's bad.

[02:11:25.500] - Beth

that I could be like, oh, it's like Fire Season. Do you know what I mean? Because I don't even know if I would keep recommending sports romance.

[02:11:35.460] - Emma

Wait, I think so many, like, when people talk about contemporary has their subgenres of, like, oh, sports romances. I'll read a sports romance and think it's good. Like, I loved Fire Season, but then it's like, well, I don't want to read. There's lots of sports romances that are really bad. Like, and don't actually have the same stakes. Yeah, it's like this contemporary has these subgenres within it where it's like, I. I feel like I know my subgenres in historical really well. It's like I can pick up a regency and within two chapters know whether I'm going to like the style or not in contemporary. Just feels like I'm, like, hitting my head against the wall a little bit.

[02:12:08.500] - Beth

But what, like, what I like out of a contemporary is an exploration of a society. And I think you feel similarly. Like, I already mentioned Fire Season, but I'm always thinking of how does an individual operate within this community? So our last Rake Recommends episode. That was the one I gave you. Fire Season by KD Casey. And something that kind of compels me about sports romances is sports has this social hierarchy and norms and traditions and rules. So it's interesting stakes to explore in something I'm not familiar with because I'm constantly questioning if I like baseball or not. But I have not followed baseball before.

[02:12:52.230] - Beth

With Thirsty, we have Sal, who's recently left prison after five years, and he's trying to get his life up and going. He's saving up money for his younger brother, Eddie, who's still in prison, but he's, like, about to get out. So Sal, he goes back to his neighborhood that he grew up in, and he was part of the gang there, the east side Hollenbeck or the ESHB. So there's a lot going on where he's deeply rooted in this community.

[02:13:16.900] - Beth

He has former gang ties that he's trying to sever in a way that's not going to get him in trouble with his parole officer, but also with the gang. Then he's trying to enter this new community of beer brewers. Like, he's kind of interested in this potential job. So, yeah, I just. I thought it was some compelling elements that you might like.

[02:13:39.130] - Emma

Yeah. So I do like this book. I thought the writing was really strong. So. All right, the plot summary of Thirsty is Salvador, or Ghost, as his friends call him, is newly out of prison, and he's trying to save up money, get an apartment before his brother is released. But his friend Spider, who he's been crashing with, has been cheating on his girlfriend, so they're both getting kicked out. Seeing that Sal has nowhere to sleep, Chinita Velasco, an older woman that has known Sal his entire life, invites him to sleep in her garage in exchange for very low rent. This distresses Chinita's granddaughter, Vanessa. Vanessa and Sal have known each other since they were children, but they always ran in different circles. Sal was a little older and in his teen years joined the East Side Hollenbeck, the gang his entire family was in, including his father and brother. Vanessa was very studious, and everyone expected her to go to college, but she was 17 or. But when she was 17, she became pregnant, and her boyfriend, also a gang member, died before her daughter was born. She now works as a bookkeeper but is in the middle of her exams to become a CPA.

[02:14:37.030] - Emma

She's uninterested in inviting a gang member into her home, but Sal is going to clean up the garage, so she puts him on probation and agrees for two months of Sal in their home. Sal is immediately attracted to Vanessa, but initially focuses on his work, both in the garage and his part time jobs. He works as a janitor at a day spa in a gym. His boss at the gym has offered to promote him to trainer, but Sal worries that the boss is mostly interested in using a felon trainer as a marketing promotion. During a social outing, the boss introduces Sal to Alan, a local brewer, and Sal is over. Sal is overwhelmed by the a variety available in beer, but when he has one that tasted like a pastry that he had as a kid, he offers to bring one to Alan, and they sort of form their own friendship through this connection. Sal does not want to be involved in the gang again, but given their rules, he doesn't have much of a choice when a local business owner asks him to pass along a message, and then when the message is received, the leader of the gang, Reuben, who is Sal's godfather and his late father's best friend, implies that Sal will be needed again shortly for gang work.

[02:15:35.590] - Emma

Vanessa and Sal continue to get closer through some help of her grandmother, who thinks they ought to be a couple, well before Vanessa does, they talk about their connections to the gang, the loss of his father and her boyfriend, including both of those men's drug use. Vanessa says that Sal does have a choice about whether he goes back to work for Reuben. She really thinks that he needs to get out and he needs to put his foot down, they start a relationship that Vanessa feels is just as temporary as Sal. Staying at Chinita's house, Sal meets up with Alan and starts learning about beer making. He has a mind for systems and calculations that works well with the science and experimentation of brewing. He makes an experimental beer with the plant hoja santa from the garden outside of Vanessa's house. Alan suggests that Sal apply for a brewing science certificate at a local university, and Vanessa helps him with the scholarship application. As the couple gets closer, Sal tells Vanessa of the circumstances of his arrest. He was carjacking with his brother when his brother got shot. He stayed to put pressure on the wound rather than run, and this led to his arrest.

[02:16:33.870] - Emma

During a family game night, the other gang members come to get Sal for a job to intimidate an infringing rival gang. Sal starts to go along with a plan, but balks when he realizes there's a family inside the house they are attacking. Another member takes the Molotov cocktail from his hand and throws it in, but cuts his hand on the windowpane he throws it through Sal's friends. Spider gets shot and Sal takes him to the hospital, but they lie and say it was from a drive by. Sal worries about being killed for his inability to perform the job, but as he returns home to Vanessa's place, his brother is there. They chat and Eddie sleeps in the garage and Sal goes to Vanessa's room. He lies about his involvement in any violence, but early in the morning, her house is attacked by Hollenbeck members throwing bricks through the windows. When they go outside, Vanessa gets hurt and Sal gets beat so badly that he almost passes out. Vanessa kicks Sal out for both getting involved again in the gang and also lying. Also for lying to her. So Eddie and Sal, Eddie's his brother, chat and catch up, and by putting information together, Sal realizes he has a key to his father's storage unit.

[02:17:29.210] - Emma

While there, he finds records about his grandmother, who he thought was dead is being taken care of in a nursing home. He goes to visit Spider in the hospital. The two members of the gang above Spider are either now in prison or missing, so Spider is at least temporarily in charge of the gang. Sal takes this opportunity to ask Spider to let him leave the gang, which would also means that he needs to leave the neighborhood. Spider grants the request when Sal sort of overstates how bad his panic attacks have gotten after prison, saying like, he can't actually be useful to the gang anymore, so they both sort of can like leave with dignity. So Sal and Eddie get an apartment but then three months later, Vanessa comes to visit with mail from the university that Sal, why do he got in with the scholarship. He tells her the full truth of, like, the violent night. And then they make up. And then there's an epilog with a cliffhanger that I won't spoil in case anyone wants to read it because I was. I was surprised by the ending. So I'll save. The epilogue has a surprise.

[02:18:17.030] - Emma

I'll save it. But. Yeah, but it's. It's. I liked it. It was a very sweet romance. And I think Beth and I are going to talk about some things that surprised me that I enjoyed about it.

[02:18:27.130] - Beth

Okay. Well, first I want to talk about the point of view. So most romances right now it's dual point of view. You know, third person, and you're just like, you kind of. And it's not always like alternating chapter, but it's like fairly even most of the time. But this one is like first person, and it's from Sal's perspective. So I always love challenging Emma on POV because she likes dual POV a lot. Not to shortchange you, I think you also just like any book that's well written, regardless of point of view.

[02:18:58.960] - Emma

Yeah.

[02:18:59.230] - Emma

I think you just always have really interesting thoughts about dual point of view. So I guess maybe I'm pushing you to get that.

[02:19:05.880] - Emma

Yeah, I do like dual POV, and I guess I'm critical. I like when dual POV is done well. And I think maybe just romance authors. That's like the mode that most of them write in nowadays. I do. I also am critical of dual POV when it's done poorly. I think sometimes people are not thoughtful about, like, why. Why are you giving me this point of view in this scene? Like, why is this person telling this information? So I liked this one first. I think fire season isn't first person. It's single POV, but it's not first person. Right? It's like third person present?

[02:19:36.330] - Beth

No it's dual. Yeah, it's present so you're just like. You're constantly in your feelings.

[02:19:42.750] - Emma

So I think this may be the first 1st person romance that I've read. And so I liked that because it's also Sal's first person perspective. And maybe everyone does this first person perspective, but I just don't know it because I don't read first person perspective romances that often. But he's, very aware that he's telling someone a story. So there's this immediate conspiratorial vibe. That's what I texted Beth. I was like, it feels like we're in on a secret with Sal. Like, he's doing these asides to the reader, and he's like, oh, man, Vanessa looked so hot. And it feels like he's telling you you're his friend. So we get all these scenes of his daydreaming. Like, the first sex scene is not really a sex scene. It's a sex scene in his mind with Vanessa, but it reads like she writes it like a sex scene.

[02:20:26.740] - Beth

He's jacking off in the shower, but he's imagining really deeply—

[02:20:31.580] - Emma

—she's there, so it reads like a sex scene, but it's like, oh, I don't think I've ever read something like that before in a romance. And he also makes lots of commentary on other people's thoughts. And so that's how we get he's very perceptive about what Vanessa is feeling and what Alan is feeling. So he sort of. There's one point where he's like, I think Alan's gay. And it's like. And then later, Alan, like, mentions a guy that he's dating. But it's like, the way that we find out that Alan is gay is that Sal being like, I think that's what's happening, but I'm not sure.

[02:21:03.130] - Beth

Yeah, I feel like first person is fun because you can get more. You definitely still have a strong voice from a character. I don't want to shortchange other point of views, but I feel like with first person, especially, you can just be a lot more in that character's voice. Like, Sal can just be like, her tits looked amazing, and I would be, like grade A writing because it's from his thoughts and feelings. Do you know what I mean?

[02:21:24.410] - Emma

I think it helps with the dialogue. I think that's another thing that sometimes takes me out in contemporary, which I am aware is maybe me being hard on contemporary is that dialog stands out so much when people try to use slang, and it's like, yeah, I historical can't get away with that, because it's like, yeah, if you're doing, like, highfalutin, like, british-isms at me, I notice less of it. But when it's, like, slang in America in the 2020s, I'm like, oh. Like, I feel like it stands out so much, but that's, like. That's my own bias, that it's like, oh, it sounds fancy, or when they're British in the 19th century, or it sounds like better writing, which is not necessarily true, but I think it's, like, oh. When all, like, all of his thoughts are sort of in the same cadence, like, you get into his vocabulary a little faster. And so, like, when he says stuff that's more casual to her or, like, more slang, it's like, oh, like, well, I've been in this, like, vocab for the whole book, so it's less jarring to go from, like, sort of staid narrator voice.

[02:22:20.590] - Emma

Yeah. To dialogue.

[02:22:21.620] - Beth

Yeah, yeah. No, I got you. A few reviews that annoyed me, I need to stay off goodreads, I saw one that was like, Vanessa is hesitant and not hesitant with Sal, which she's a kid. So I guess I kind of saw that as a reflection of her own. How close can I get with this guy? I have a kid to protect and needs to be my first thought. But I'm also really horny for this guy, and it's only two months, so maybe I should just go all in because there's this cap on it.

[02:22:57.860] - Emma

Yeah. Like, I thought Vanessa was really great, and I was. I guess I was surprised, considering that at single POV, how much I felt like she was a real person and a real character. And so, like I said, this is something I noticed, and this is something, maybe a justification for reading contemporaries, is that I like, just by nature of historical regencies, especially what a woman can feel about sex is pretty narrow. Like, you can have a courtesan who's like, experienced. You can have non-virgin heroines, but even that experience is pretty narrow. Like, they're a widow or they're a fallen woman or they're a Cyprian or something. Like, this is a woman who's eager to have sex but is skeptical about a relationship. And that dynamic, I feel like, does not happen in historicals. Maybe a sex worker is the one I'm thinking of. But then again, that's a different dynamic. And so it was very narrow circumstances. So I think this is a very real thing that happens in life. That felt very new to me as a reader. I was like, oh, this heroine is like, she's just horny for Sal, which makes sense because Sal is very hot.

[02:23:58.670] - Emma

And so, like, she also, like, hasn't had sex in five years. And it makes sense, too, that it's like this temporary thing. It's like she has all of these circumstances that maybe she was. And I also think the. So she's. She's been her first relationship, and I think only relationship really was with her father, her daughter's father, who is a gang member. But now she's in this dynamic with a gang member, former gang member, who needs her a lot, it's like suddenly circumstances are so different than when she was 17, where if Sal fucks up, she can kick him out. And it's like, this is now a totally dynamic. And I don't think that would have been available definitely to her before. And she talks about online dating and sort of this lack of comfort she has with people from the neighborhood. And Sal understands what it was like with his name. Sleepy.

[02:24:45.230] - Beth

Yeah, his code name is Sleepy.

[02:24:46.950] - Emma

Yeah.

[02:24:47.210] - Beth

So her boyfriend's real name is Brian.

[02:24:49.570] - Emma

Yeah, Sleepy. So her boyfriend. And the father of her daughter, I think it's meaningful for her to be able to talk about Sleepy with Sal. And I, like, I think that's one of the things she feels like she couldn't do with someone who's, like, online, like, her new life or quote unquote, new life of, like, being a bookkeeper. It's like these people don't understand where I'm from. And so it's like they have this shared history, even if they didn't really have a relationship before he went to prison.

[02:25:11.870] - Beth

Yeah. There's something about having a shared history with someone that is just very difficult to replicate. So it's like, if you can have that shared history, but you're also attracted to each other, it's just interesting to see that in a relationship. And I like how you were saying that she really wants sex, and she hasn't had sex in five years, and she's just a very cautious person in general. She's really smart. She was, like, everyone expected her to go on to a really fancy school because she did so well academically. And then she got pregnant, and it surprised everybody. So I feel like she's also reticent to do, quote unquote, fun things because the last time she had fun, she got pregnant. And not that I think she sees that she deserves punishment or anything. Not like that vibe at all, but just, she's just cautious. She's just a cautious person.

[02:26:03.270] - Emma

I think the timeline also makes sense for her. It's like her daughter's in school or about to start. It's like, yeah, I feel like this is a common. Like, whether you're with a partner or not, it's like, I feel like your daughter being around five or six is the time when parents are like, oh. Like, I now have a little bit of breathing room with, like, my kid doesn't need me every single moment of the day. Like, there's one of the times I have sex, it's because the daughters at a friend's house, and it's like, yeah. Like, you would initially do that when she's, like, a toddler. It's like, oh, this timeline makes sense. It's very, very, like, they're just sort of, like, fated and, like, this is the right time for both of them. And I also like that they're not, like, married at the end of the book, which, again, very different than historical.

[02:26:43.930] - Emma

They're like, we're trying this. And they're not living together. Like, he has his own apartment with his brother still by the end of the book, and they're just like, yeah. So I think this may be one of the first, like, happily for nows I've ever read where they're not inextricably linked by the end of the book, but I also believe that they're together.

[02:27:01.750] - Beth

Yeah. I feel like often my biggest thing when I'm reading a book where I feel like I'm chronically this book could have been 50 pages shorter, but I actually kind of feel the opposite with this book. I do like its length. I think it's kind of nice to just sometimes read a book. Book that's 250 pages.

[02:27:16.620] - Emma

Yeah, I read it, like, on, like, a three hour plane ride. Like, I read it so fast, but.

[02:27:22.300] - Beth

I feel like, honestly, this book probably could have used 50 more pages to kind of don't know. There is a lot going on. I feel like that could have fleshed out a little bit more. Yeah, I.

[02:27:33.060] - Emma

So I would be interested in reading the rest of the series, and that's sort of what I assumed where the. Some of this would happen. It's because I know the next. The next person, the next hero is the brother. Until, like, maybe we get.

[02:27:43.680] - Beth

I actually like that book more. I still really, like Thirsty, but I read Trashed first, and maybe that's just why in my brain, I'm like, I really like this one. Let me read the first one.

[02:27:51.730] - Emma

But, yeah, yeah, so I would like to see, like, so the. I think the thing that people in Goodreads were complaining about is, like, the brewery, they're like, it doesn't really like. It's kind of random. But I would argue that any series of romances, the thing that connects them is kind of random. There has to be some sort of true. Like, whether it's Bridgerton siblings or a job, it's like, okay, like, why do we care about these people in sequence. Like, if you're gonna do a series of interconnected romance, it just tends to be kind of random, I think.

[02:28:18.760] - Beth

I also like, for me, the first time I read it and I saw that critique, I kind of chalked it up to his old life is so different. Like, it is kind of jarring because he is trying to do something so new and kind of, like, outside of his current world. So, yes, I think that could be it, too.

[02:28:36.030] - Emma

Yeah.

[02:28:36.250] - Emma

And I don't. I don't know if it needed to be brewing. Like, it seems like maybe Hopkins, like, knows a little about brewing, and she's like, this is a thing that I can write about competently, but what I think it's less important that it's brewing and more important. But I so, like, I think the. Again, I don't read contemporary, but I do feel like this is a thing that I've seen before is, like, when someone gets out of prison, there's, like, a story about them becoming, like, a fighter or, like, some sort of, like, physical labor that's, like, they're. And so that option where his boss gives him the option to become a trainer, and Sal gets to say no to it, not because he doesn't need the money or because he just doesn't want to do it. He's like, this doesn't sound appealing to me. Both the dynamic with him and his boss and also, like, the labor of it. He's like, I don't think I want to do that. So I think that's important. But Sal doesn't do this thing. That's, like, the first option to him. It's like, now he has an option, and it's like, well, yeah, maybe he won't be good at brewing.

[02:29:29.160] - Emma

Maybe he won't like it. Maybe, who knows? He's never done it before, but it's like he's getting to choose something new. It's like, I'll try it. And he. Alan is also nicer to him than his boss. It makes sense that he'd want to work for Alan. Not that his boss is mean. He just is. Like I said in the summary, his boss seems to think that having a former prisoner on the payroll will, like, attract customers.

[02:29:53.990] - Beth

Yeah. he's kind of like it

[02:29:57.330] - Emma

Will give him street cred in the neighborhood and all these, like, office guys will be like, oh, my.

[02:30:04.470] - Beth

Yeah, my trainer used to be in prison.

[02:30:06.370] - Emma

Yea, he's got prison tats.

[02:30:07.470] - Beth

That's gross. So it's understandable why he. He's like, yeah, I don't want to be that, actually.

[02:30:13.950] - Emma

And Alan just treats him very matter of factly. And I think that

[02:30:18.080] - Beth

We also talked about this with work where it's like, I think Sal also just likes working out for himself. Like, he just, I think, doesn't want to make it his job. I kind of like that. I think often in our society, it's like someone has a hobby and they really like that hobby, and then someone will be like, you should monetize hobby. And it's like, but why? Why do I need to monetize hobby?

[02:30:37.050] - Emma

Yeah. So he turns down more money. He turns down more money in order to not take the trainer job. But also, it's like, I think he's like, yeah, I would have less time to explore my options if I was doing that. So I think that's the important thing. And so I liked that. And so it's like, whether it was brewing or some other job, I was like, it doesn't really matter to me. But I also. I wonder how the brewery comes back for the other books. Like, what's the through line? Because it is kind of like—

[02:31:02.460] - Beth

The next book I don't think this is a big spoiler. It's like, Eddie has a relationship with a cook. A chef. I feel like there's a distinction there with a chef at a restaurant.

[02:31:11.450] - Emma

I think she's mentioned in this book. She's like the daughter who's missing? Or like, she's like, they're like, where is she? She's at culinary school.

[02:31:18.440] - Beth

Yeah, there's a bakery in the neighborhood. So it's like revitalizing the bakery and then the brewery is part of it. Like, we're gonna create this new thing, but we're going back to our roots. That's kind of, I think, how they tie it. Tie it in.

[02:31:30.520] - Beth

Yeah, we. We should maybe stop here, I think. Thank you so much for listening to reformed rakes. If you enjoy the podcast, you can find bonus episodes, recommendations, and more at our patreon@patreon.com reformedrakes. Please rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps a lot. You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram for show updates. The username for both is ReformedRakes. Thank you again and we will see you next time.