Keeper of the Dream

Show Notes

Keeper of the Dream, published in 1992, has this real threat of danger throughout the book. Arianna is the daughter of the Welsh prince and Raine pledges his fealty to Henry II, who is currently invading Wales. In the first scene, Raine kills one of Arianna’s brothers in a skirmish and the book doesn’t really let up from there. Arianna is a seer and has visions, which include insight into the past and future. Raine is the unloved, illegitimate son of an earl and he is seeking power and status by trying to secure his own lands. Williamson writes an incredibly romantic and funny love story on top of this violent war. That opening scene doesn’t sound like it could be the beginning of what I could describe as a cute, miscommunication romance. Or I could describe it as a bodice ripper. Or one of the saddest romances I’ve ever read. This book is a lot of things as once, but Williamson pulls it off.

Books Referenced

The Outsider by Penelope Williamson

Once in a Blue Moon by Penelope Williamson

The Passions of Emma by Penelope Williamson

Whitney, My Love by Judith McNaught

A Kingdom of Dreams by Judith McNaught

The King’s Man by Elizabeth Kingston

For My Lady’s Heart by Laura Kinsale

Fires of Winter by Johanna Lindsey

The Silver Devil by Teresa Denys

The Windflower by Laura London

Transcript

[00:00:00.400] - Emma

Welcome to Reformed Rakes, the podcast that will have your baby even if you're a Norman bastard. I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the Substack Restorative Romance.

[00:00:09.690] - Beth

My name is Chels, I'm a book collector and the writer of the romance substack, the Loose Cravat.

[00:00:14.020] - Chels

My name is Beth and I'm a grad student and I write at the substack ministrations and today we're doing something.

[00:00:19.480] - Emma

We've never done before. A medieval romance, Keeper of the Dream by Penelope Williamson was published in April of 1992. Williamson wrote eleven historical romances in a wide variety of settings. The Outsider is set on the Montana Plains, Once in a Blue Moon, is a Cornwall Regency. The Damon Rourke series is set in early 20th century New Orleans and Keeper of the Dream is set in Wales in 1157. Medieval romance had a big footprint in historical romance in the late 1980s and early nineties. Authors like Julie Garwood, Johanna Lindsay, and Jude Devereux wrote their most popular medieval romances during this period. Medievals swing big and have some different conventions from Regencies from the same period and definitely regencies from now. The stakes are high. There's often a war going on and the couple may be on different sides of those violent politics. Inside characters frequently die to help maintain those established high stakes. Medieval England also predates a lot of things that we think of as cultural origins in historical romance. The sources here are not Jane Austen and Victorian novels, but Camelot tales, chivalric romances, and possibly early 19th century art that romanticized this period.

[00:01:22.590] - Emma

Keeper of the dream has this real threat of danger throughout the book. Arianne is the daughter of the Welsh prince and Raine pledges his fealty to Henry II, the king of England, who is currently invading Wales. In the first scene, Raine kills one of Ariana's brothers in a skirmish and the book doesn't really let it from there. Arianne is a seer and has visions which include insight into the past and future. Raine is the unloved, illegitimate son of an earl and he's seeking power and status by trying to secure his own lands. Williamson writes an incredibly romantic and funny love story on top of this violent war. That opening scene doesn't sound like it could be the beginning of what I could describe as a cute miscommunication romance, or what I could describe as a bodice ripper or one of the saddest romances I've ever read. This book is a lot of things at once, but Williamson pulls it off.

[00:02:14.190] - Emma

This is gonna be a fun one.

[00:02:16.510] - Beth

Oh my gosh. Apologies to the Welsh for all their attempts at pronouncing these names.

[00:02:22.370] - Emma

This is set in Wales. I tried to write down phonetic pronunciations. We're gonna try our best. Yeah, some of the words are Welsh, and some of them, I think, Williamson made up for the characters. Like the name Ariana, I think comes from the word for silver, which is like Arianne.

[00:02:38.220] - Chels

Okay.

[00:02:38.790] - Emma

But it's not actually a given name. But we're going to try our best. So this was my first Williamson novel and I loved it. So I saw Williamson referenced as a writer of outsider romance on the blog. Dear author, I think the review is making a clear reference to her book the Outsider, while saying that she's focused on settings that are outside the norm. Like, even the fact that this is a medieval book, but it's set in Wales and pretty grounded in Welsh history is different than a lot of medieval romances, which in my experience focused more on a vague Scotland and England where things aren't really necessarily attached to a year or specific actual historical event happening. And then Raine and Ariana are also both outsider characters, even in the world that they occupy. So have either of you read Williamson before? And what did you think of this book?

[00:03:24.330] - Chels

Yeah, so I was thinking the vague medieval settings you mentioned might be more of a modern trend too, because there's this sort of shift that I've noticed, like mid eighties, where authors are drawing more inspiration from Julie Garwood than earlier authors like Roberta Gellis, who wrote medievals and was famous for her research and even taught classes on it. I know that we're going to be talking more about that later in the discussion, though, so we could kind of table that for now. As far as Williamson goes, I've read two other books by Penelope Williamson. I've read the outsider, and once in a blue moon. I don't really have anything else to compare the outsider to, except maybe the Harrison Ford movie witness, but outside, yeah, but the outsider is, of course, much more romantic, and it's deeply sad. It's about an amish woman named Rachel whose husband was recently killed by greedy ranchers who want to take over the land of the plain people. And they know that they aren't gonna physically fight back because that's not something that they do. So Rachel is living alone with her young son when a wounded gunslinger shows up on her property.

[00:04:28.940] - Chels

It's a slow burn with tons of side characters that Williamson gets you incredibly invested in. Williamson also takes Rachel's faith very seriously. So if you liked sunshine and shadow, you might get a lot out of the outsider. I read once in a blue moon quite recently, and it's a new favorite of mine. Williamson writes Regency the way that Kinsale writes Regency. She doesn't rest on any established genre romance world building, so it has moments in London, but it's largely set in Cornwall. And it's about this Hoyden named Jessalyn, who from a very young age becomes obsessed with this bratty youngest son of an impoverished Earl named McAdie Trelawney. It's so funny and so charming, and it has this huge emotional upheaval and it. And then it has huge emotional upheaval similar to keeper of the dream. McCady and Jesselynn also have a very, like, Kathy and Heathcliff type relationship. This is a dynamic that I think Williamson is very good at.

[00:05:25.150] - Beth

Those sound great, especially the outsider. I've only read one other Williamson. It's called the Passions of Emma. It's set in early 1900s in Rhode island. The opening to this book is like, so metal. Emma gets engaged to a factory owner on a fox hunt, and then another character, Brea, shows up to the hunt with the body of a boy who died at the factory. Indicting Emma's fiancé, Emma ends up befriending Brea. There's a class difference here. So obviously Emma's, upper class and Brea is like an Irish immigrant she's married to. I didn't even put the husband's name.

[00:06:02.440] - Emma

I was like, is this gay?

[00:06:03.690] - Beth

Like, I know. Honestly, I was kind of more invested in their friendship than her eventual romance with this guy. So she ends up befriending Bria and then she develops feelings for Bria's husband. And Bria is sick and kind of sees this romance developing. It's complicated, and I kind of wish they had all been polyamorous together, but obviously that didn't happen. I will say the beginning and concept of this book are so strong, and it just kind of ends on a whimper. But I still I think of scenes from this book still, like, it was so strong. So when I say ends on a whimper, I still would recommend someone read this book. I think it's hard to make all the elements you are integrating into a novel come to a really satisfying ending. There's a lot going on. We'll get into it. I feel like every one of her books, there's a lot of plot to go through. She packs a lot in there. Yes.

[00:07:00.910] - Emma

So that's a good transition to our plot summary. Again, apologize to the country of Wales. I will try my best with Welsh pronunciation. And it's a long plot summary because a lot happens in this book and it's a long, sweeping medieval. So here we go. The Welsh castle of Brithyn is under attack by the Norman forces from England. Ariana is the daughter of the ruling family. Her father has left the castle in the care of her brother, and they are preparing for battle. Arianne has a gift of sight, where she sees visions of the future in pools of standing water. Arianne looks at a bowl that was once owned by Merdin, the great Welsh seer, and sees a black knight charging towards her and stabbing her in the chest. The next day, the Norman siege the castle, only to retreat, leaving one knight standing facing the castle. Kedro, Arianas brother, approaches with a band of men, but it is a trick. The Welsh retreat to the castle, but the knight is able to leap on his horse across the distance of the moat and kill Kedro. Ariana goes to Kedro's body and sees that the knight is the man from provision.

[00:07:57.980] - Emma

The knight is rain, the black dragon, the illegitimate son of the Earl of Chester. Arianne attacks him, but she's in disguise as a castle wench. So Raine and his men don't realize that she's the daughter of the Welsh general that they are at war with. So Raine and his men don't realize that she is the daughter of the Welsh prince that they are at war with. Raine sends her to a cellar for now. Hugh rains noble half brother, finds Arianne in the cellar, but as he is attacking her, she hits her head and sees a spectral figure attack Hugh and keep him from it, raping her. She passes out from a head injury as the illegitimate son rains been denied an inheritance and his childhood sweetheart Sybil in favor of his legitimate younger brother Hugh. So he has his aim. So he has aims on Ruthyn. After killing Kedro, Raine leaves to meet up with english king Henry and saves him in a skirmish. Meanwhile, Taliesin Raine Squire finds Ariana passed out in the cellar with injured Hugh. He confuses her. He speaks Welsh, wants to help her, but is dressed as a Norman. She decides to trust him and thinks he is helping her escape to get to her father.

[00:08:58.010] - Emma

But on their getaway boat, she is drugged and wakes up in a tent where she recognizes the battle flag of rains black dragon. Shes been gagged and bound and cannot move. Raine walks through camp and finds his squire, Taliesen, tries to tell Raine about Arianas presence in his tent, but Raine wont listen and is surprised by finding a bound woman in his bed. Raine assumes that shes chased down their camp to find a new protector and is now offering herself up. Ariana tries to thread the needle by insisting that shes not a whore, but also not revealing her true privileged identity. After she swears she wont harm him, Raine cuts the ties that are binding her legs and hands, letting her walk out of the tent, but Arianne grabs his sword and attempts to kill him anyway. Rainn kisses her and begins to assault her, but Taliesin interrupts, angry that his knight is trying to rape Ariana. Raine is confused by the whole thing. Taliesin put her in his tent bound and gagged, but the squire says you were supposed to like her, not bet her. Ariana takes this pause as a chance to give Raine a bloody nose.

[00:09:54.970] - Emma

Taliesen finally gets a word in edgewise and reveals Arianas true identity. Daughter of Prince Owain of Gwynedd, the Welsh leader currently fighting Henry II. This delights Rain. He's going to ransom Arianne for a fortune to fund his future at Ruthyn. Much to the disappointment of Taliesin, Reine goes to Henry and they discuss the Welsh situation in Ruthyn. The king is leaning towards giving Hugh the castle as Raine is telling the king that he has the Welsh prince's daughter and they could ransom her. Taliesin rudely interrupts and suggests no, don't ransom her. Marry her off to the ruler of Ruthyn. After a tournament to determine who should win the Fife, Owain will not attack the castle on the border if his daughter is married to its ruler. Henry loves this idea and reign is of two minds. He likes the idea of having the chance to earn Ruthyn once and for all, but hates the idea of having to marry Arianne to do it. When Arianne is back in her room, now a prisoner, one of her younger brothers, Rhodri, comes and explains the circumstances of the truce between Owain and Henry. Owain pledges fealty to Henry and gives up Ruthyn and two hostages as assurances of peace from the Welsh side.

[00:10:55.660] - Emma

The hostages are Arianne and Rodri. Rodri is going to be a squire and Arianne will be married to the lord of Ruthyn. Arianne is furious at the idea of maybe marrying rain, but is proud to do her duty. Taliesin is preparing the night for tournament and keeps making knowing comments about Raine and Arianne being each other's destiny and encouraging his knight to make amends with the lady to ask to wear her favor at the tournament. Raine hates this idea. Outside the tournament Raine sees Sybil, his childhood sweetheart, who's now married to his brother Hugh for the first time in six years, and they wistfully discuss his new circumstances and his chance to marry Ariana. Ariana sees the pair talking and is struck by a surprising jealousy of the ease that Raine conducts himself with Sybil. Ariana tells Raine she's rooting for his brother to win, but shortly thereafter she realizes that Hugh was the man who tried to rape her in the cellar. The tournament begins and everyone acts like it's a foregone conclusion that Raine will win, which he does handedly. He defeats Hugh, pledges loyalty to King Henry and takes its winnings, including Ariana, though never acknowledging her directly.

[00:11:53.390] - Emma

Cut to the moments before the wedding and Ariana is steeling herself. She sees Welshmen approaching the castle with cattle and her maid tells her this is a tax imposed by the new lord as repayment for resources lost in the war. Arianne thinks it's disrespectful and comes down to her wedding banquet in a sackcloth gown covered in ashes. Raine is furious and sends her to change. Taliesin is embarrassed by Ariana not playing ball with the wedding arrangement. Taliesin explains that Raine intends to give the cattle back as part of the wedding celebration, but now Raine can't give the cattle back because of optics and Ariana worries he will punish her. They have a tense wedding feast. Taliesin is doing his best to get the couple to try and work together, but they're both digging their heels in. Ariana steals away and talks to two of her Welsh cousins, Ivor and Kilid, and they give her a scary birds and the bees talk, including the discussion of french perversions and the idea that Raine might hurt her during the act. When she returns, she sees Raine and Sybil flirting. Raine approaches her and tells her to stay out of Hugh's bed.

[00:12:47.580] - Emma

Ariana reacts poorly at the idea that she would sleep with Hugh and Raine doesn't understand why this is so offensive to her. Miscommunications abound during the first time they sleep together. Raine doesnt feel comfortable promising not to hurt Ariana because he knows her first time will hurt. Ariana is terrified of what her cousins told her, so she keeps a knife under her pillow. Raine tells Ariana that they have to consummate their marriage regardless of her wishes and Ariana angrily fights back for every inch Raine wins from Ariana in trying to show her affection. She jumps back a mile when hes going down on her, trying to help prepare her for their sex. She stabs them in the arm, furious at trying french perversions on her. He reacts and accidentally throws his arm across her face, giving her a black eye. Theyre both exhausted by the end of the scene and Raine quickly consummates the marriage. Raine surveys the aftermath. The bed is covered in blood, to be anticipated after a wedding night. But it is mostly his blood from bleeding from the stab wound. He disassembles the room and finds a ton of weapons that Ariana has hidden around.

[00:13:42.270] - Emma

Ariana tells him she doesnt want him dead and she understood that they would have sex, but she was prepared to injure him if he tried any of the perversions her cousins warned her about. The next morning, theyre looking back in the evening with more affection and understanding. But Taliesin interrupts. Hes confused by the explanation of hey, dont worry, the blood is rains. Ariana stabbed him. Raine makes it clear that he needs an heir and Arianne makes it clear that shell do her duty. But shes not planning on having a good time. While exploring the wine cellar of Ruthyn, Ariana sees a carving in the wall of rains name. This triggers a vision of abuse he suffered as a child at Ruthyn. Before her father took it over, the Earl of Chester had betrayed some men and Raine was bearing the brunt of the punishment with his captors threatening to castrate and blind him. Rain, in the moment, knows that his father does not care what happens to him. And Arianne literally feels his pain in her vision. As she comes to, Taliesin finds her and explains the backdrop of the situation. How the Earl of Chester lost Ruthven himself to a baron loyal to another throne claimant, and gave up Raine as well.

[00:14:35.500] - Emma

The baron admired Raine’s courage in the face of torture and called off the punishment, even though the earl did nothing to save his son. Raine returns from his task that evening and he and Arianne talk more about what their marriage is going to be like. Theyre getting more comfortable with each other and apologize begrudgingly for their actions the night before. They have sex again, and Ariana is more interested in the process afterwards. Raine is angered to find still more weapons hid around the bedroom, though this just leads to them hooking up again. In the wee hours of the morning, Ariana is woken up by Welsh music, which she hears an otherworldly song about a woman who loves a man too much and it destroys her. Ariana doesnt know what to make of the message because she feels like she isnt asking for rains love. The next day, she's going over accounts at the castle and Raine starts teasing her because he wants to admit that she wants him and to give herself to him fully. He leaves her after they make out and she distractedly injures herself. Taliesin comes to aid her, but she has another vision that she knows is coming directly from Taliesin.

[00:15:27.650] - Emma

The vision is of Rains childhood, when Hugh received a pony from their father for Hugh's birthday. Raine is rejected both by his father and his mother in the memory, and Ariana sees just how neglected he was. After she comes to, she laments Taliesin that she can't celebrate her husband's birthday, but Taliesin says, oh, his birthday is tomorrow. Ariana prepares a gift, a handmade banner of Rains house colors. She arranges a large feast in honor of her husband. But when Raine arrives and realizes it is a birthday celebration, he's furious and assumes she is mocking him. He storms off, but to her surprise she follows, but he pushes her away by referencing her anxiety about their marriage that he only wants her for her ability to bear sons. She storms off to the fields and he has to try and go catch her. Ariana finally stops at the meenhorin, or standing stones. She says if one partner makes the other partner drink from the water on the stones, they will love each other forever. Both prepare a drop on their fingers for each other, but they are arguing over who should go first. They get the news from Odo, one of the knights that Ariana's cousin, who's supposed to be vassals of rain, have rebelled.

[00:16:24.760] - Emma

He leaves to go fight them and Ariana is upset because now her family is against her husband. After the battle, she sees Taliesin and he makes it sound like Raine has been gravely injured and is in a barn. But actually it's rains horse. So Ariana rushes there and realizes she's been tricked into admitting to Taliesin that she cares if Raine lives or diese. They help the horse together. Ariana is upset that one of her cousins died in the battle and the other ran away, but Raine implores to her that her loyalty has to be with him if their marriage is going to work. Plus, he knows shes attracted to him. They have sex in the barn and get closer to expressing their feelings for each other. The peace between the couple is short lived because Raine returns the next day furious at Ariana. Her cousin, who lived through the battle, is raising an army against rain, selling a necklace of Arianas for the funds. The cousin had been captured, but fighting continues. Ariana had given the necklace to a friend of hers who was her cousin's lover. But she doesn't want to implicate the girl in her cousin's betrayal of rain.

[00:17:12.820] - Emma

Raine doesn't believe that Arianne did not give the cousin the necklace. Raine goes to deal with the ensuing battle and leaves Odo to watch Ariana. Ariana tricks Odo and drugs him to escape. Arianne then frees her captured cousin and as she's trying to steal a horse from him, Taliesin appears. He seems to be controlling a storm that prevents Ariana from leaving. Arianas cousin gets mad at the delay and fatally stabs Taliesin and kidnaps Ariana for ransom, trying to take her back to Wales. In the escape, the horse falls off a bridge and Arianne is able to get away in the disaster and make her way to her fathers home. Raine comes to get her and lets her know that Taliesin is not dead, just injured. Raine surprises her by not punishing her but instead having her perform a nightly fealty ceremony, having her swear homage to him. This change in power dynamic and loyalty shifts something in them and their relationship becomes easier. When they return home. It is clear that Arianne is pregnant and shes very excited at Rethyn. Raine moves forward with his plan to build a new fortified castle. They need stone for this and Taliesin suggests that they bribe the monks who run the nearby quarry.

[00:18:09.480] - Emma

Ariana is tasked with sending the bribe because shes Welsh. While taking the bribe to the monks, Arianas cousin appears and steals it. So it looks like she arranged this with her cousin but actually her younger brother did. So once again, Arianne wont tell Raine the truth and accepts his anger at her betrayal. Hes furious and she tells him that shes pregnant to try and diffuse the anger but he storms out. Arianas brother finds Raine admits to the betrayal himself. Raine returns but Ariana wont see him and shes on bedrest thinking that she might be miscarrying. Later, when she's feeling better, they go to a market together and Raine shows surprising affection for her and buys her a bunch of presents, including wooden letter flashcards. She realizes that Raine doesn't know how to read so she starts teaching him. During the lesson they start kissing but Raine gets angry. He doesn't want to have sex while she's pregnant out of fear of hurting the child. The castle goes on. The boar hunt and Raine and Ariana are riding together. She gets off her horse to have him examine her horseshoes but that's when the boar comes near them, Ariana saves Raine by endangering herself and they manage to kill the boar.

[00:19:03.040] - Emma

Raine overcomes his anxiety and they have sex. When they return to the castle, Hugh and his wife Sybil are there. Henry has started another war and needs Raine to go fight. While Raine is away, Ariana attempts a scrying method at determining the gender of her baby, but the pool of water she uses instead gives her a vision of Hugh injuring and betraying Raine on the battlefield. She thinks that she has to go to the battlefield, but then she finds Taliesin, who should be in France with Rain. He discourages her from leaving and starts a snowstorm. She accuses him of being a Welsh wizard and he denies it. But he also tells her that it's not Rain's destiny to die in France. Raine returns just as Ariana is giving birth. They have a little girl named Nesta and Raine immediately takes to her. Raine names Hugh and simple godparents to Arianas annoyance and shes pretty sure Hugh tried to kill Raine and he was once in love with Sybil. Ariana sees a new scar from the arrow wound and knows her vision was true. When she confronts Rain, she has to disclose how she knows about the circumstances of the wound, which came from a game of arrow chicken the brothers play.

[00:19:57.310] - Emma

She has to disclose the extent of her visions about rains past because he thinks she heard it from Hugh. Raine feels very violated by Ariana being inside of his head. They go visit the Earl of Chester's house and Sybil talks to Ariana about her inability to conceive. Though she and Hugh have tried for years, Sybil seems to think it's punishment now for waiting for Raine to return. Being at the earl's house has Ariana see Sybil and Raine together, frequently causing jealousy about their shared past. While this is happening, Hugh is trying to seduce Ariana himself, though she rebuffs his advances. One time when Cybill and Raine are talking about their past, he kisses her. Of course Ariana sees and he has to beg forgiveness. But Ariana says shes returning to Rithyn and she doesnt care what he does. She employs Taliesin to get Raine back to the standing zones. She knows Raine loves her but wants him to admit it, so he stops, testing the strength of their relationship all the time. Taliesin also takes it on himself to give Raine a love potion to use. Raine finds Arianne there and he drinks from the magic water and they make up.

[00:20:49.680] - Emma

Their life is very idyllic until Nesta falls suddenly ill and passes away. Arianne struggles to accept the death and Raine lashes out that Ariana couldnt see their daughter die. Tali Essen helps them come back together and experience and process the pain. Later, Ariana becomes pregnant again and tells Raine as he's working on the castle build. Ariana then is at her friend's house where her disloyal cousin is hiding out. He wants a guarantee that Raine won't kill him. But while Arianne is negotiating, Raines men arrive at the cottage themselves. So once again it appears that Ariana is betraying Rain. But when she is giving him a bath later, he makes it clear he isn't worried about her loyalty, just that he's worried that he will have to kill her cousin and test it again. Rayn admits that he wont kill her cousin and instead puts him on a ship to Ireland. Cybil arrives alone at the castle, bruised from abuse by Hugh. She has come and wants Raine to admit that he still loves her. As Sybil is pleading for an admission, Ariana sees Sybil and Raine and runs away. Sybil realizes that Raine really does love Ariana and tells him that he ought to say as much directly to her.

[00:21:47.200] - Emma

Raine goes to Arianas room and realizes she isnt there. Ariana is instead angrily walking in a field. Raine tells her he loves her, but she says it doesn't count because he's under duress. He strips off all his clothes and begs on his knees, making a reference to a love song that Taliesen sings and pledges his love. At that moment, Arianne goes into labor, so Raine has to deliver the baby, but it's actually two babies. They have twins, a daughter and a son. Henry starts another war, but this time against the Welsh, as is liege. Raine has to fight for Henry. Raine decides to go, but without an army which could anchor Henry. After he leaves, Ariana sees a vision of Raine hanging and decides she must go to him. Raine has arrived at the battle. After it's happened, there's been a lot of destruction on both sides. When Henry sees Raine and Rodri, who Raine took with him. Henry takes Rodri as captive to negotiate with Owain. Henry orders Hugh to blind. Rhodrine gets so angry that he attacks Henry. He immediately leaves with Rodri and defects to the other side. Ariana arrives and a dying man shoots her with an arrow.

[00:22:45.030] - Emma

Raine goes to her and this leads to his capture by Henry. Taliesin saves Ariana, but Raine has to go to London where he will be hanged. Ariana goes to Hugh to aid rains escape and they go to Raine to tell him the plan. Hugh will help him escape if Ariana sleeps with Hugh. Rain, of course, hates this idea, but Arianne is prepared to do anything to save him. When it comes down to it, Hugh cannot go through with it himself and aids Raine without any payment. As the Earl of Chester, he's protected from some of Henry's wrath. Taliesin helps Raine understand Arianas actions so he doesn't hold them against her. And Taliesin provides a diversion that keeps Raine and Hugh safe. This is the last Raine sees of Taliesin. Raine and Ariana reunite in Wales and presumably continue to fight and make up until they die happily ever after.

[00:23:28.770] - Emma

So the first thing we're going to talk about is the setting of medieval Wales. So when I started reading historical romance, I actually started with medieval Scottish romances, which is wild to me because I feel like I am. I very much am like a Regency dude.

[00:23:42.310] - Emma

Like, I haven't given up on the Regency and I love picking up a random Regency. And obviously, like, Regency is kind of the period for historical romance. It's the most popular now and has always been really popular. But my first historical series was a couple of series by Maya Banks that are set in Scotland, and I loved them and just sort of it got me on the historical romance bug. So medieval books can be kind of vague in their settings. Like I mentioned in the intro, I feel this with Julie Garwood's books, and I think Maya Banks is definitely looking at Garwood when she's reading. And I think when I think of medieval, I think of Garwood, and I feel like Garwood kind of happens in England with castles. That's the thing that I notice in her books, that there's not a lot of grounding. To be fair, I've never actually finished a Julie Garwood book because I always end them before the big battle at the end. Like, once the couple's together, I just stop reading,

[00:24:32.570] - Beth

almost like you need a third act breakup.

[00:24:34.780] - Emma

Right. She tends to end her books with, like, a big external conflict that's separate from the couple. And once the couple's together, I'm like, I'm done. So I've never actually finished one. I do enjoy the first three fourths of the Garwood books that I read, but for Williamson, this one I felt like was so much more grounded from the jump. Like, we're dealing with an invasion of Wales that actually did happen. Williams included an author note about Henry's invasion of Wales and how peace was brokered between him and Owain. So Owain is Ariana's father and a historical prince. So he was the prince of Wales who pledges fealty to Henry. And this is how Wales becomes a part of England as, like, satellite states. This is like the first union of them under the norman conquest. And just a few things I generally associate with medieval as a setting, whether they're wallpapery or not, is they generally are much more violent than the regency that will have, like, we will meet characters who will die. That's sort of a thing I know in medieval, that I'm always waiting for which secondary character is going to die.

[00:25:32.070] - Emma

They're more likely to have some sort of vague magic element. I think that's true, that there's something about the set setting. We are more likely to believe magic is happening, or at least like, very strong talk of, like, fate and destiny. And I also think they're a little grosser, which I like. Like, I was not surprised that we got a hero going to the bathroom scene in this book, which I think would be very surprising if I were to pick up a regency and, like, the heroine could hear the hero going to the bathroom.

[00:25:57.120] - Beth

My favorite is when these books are, like, more forward hygiene wise, than, like, probably would have been at the time. So, yeah, there's a lot of random thoughts.

[00:26:05.240] - Emma

There's lots of bathing in the book.

[00:26:07.280] - Chels

Yeah. I don't know. I don't know about the historical accuracy of that comment. We talked maybe more offline about how Whitney, My Love by Judith McNaught was incredibly influential in the way that later authors would write regency romance. I feel similarly about Garwood, both as a writer of medieval romance and as someone who writes books set in Scotland a lot. I feel as though after Garwood got so popular, you're getting more and more writers who are looking at Garwood's version of this time period, this setting, and then bouncing off that. As far as I can tell, Garwood is the originator of the trend of every single man in Scotland is so incredibly tall and so big that has a chokehold on american historical romance authors who currently set books in Scotland. But the Garwood style is not the only style of writing about medieval, like, as I mentioned, like Roberta Gellis before her. Roberta Gellis started writing in different genres, I think in the mid, late eighties, and kind of when I feel like.

[00:27:05.500] - Beth

She wrote some fantasies or maybe just historicals.

[00:27:08.520] - Chels

She did, yeah, she moved into fantasies. She's written all of kind of a small spectrum of different genres. But, like, her early stuff, she had a lot. She had medieval. She had. She had some regencies, too. But Gellis was famous for her research, like, very, very detailed, very, very, like, laborious research that she would do. That, I think, is also something kind of. It's also a hallmark of some bodice rippers. I've just read another Christine Monson, and it's just, like, kind of insane, the amount of details that, like, some of these people, like. So time, I think, makes a difference in how we perceive these books. But the Garwood style is not the only style of writing about medieval. And there are authors today, like Elizabeth Kingston, who wrote A Kingsman, which is so fucking good, and has a Welsh heroine named Gwenlian who captures Edward I's most of ruthless killer, a man named Ranulph. So people have described this as a book to read. If you ship Jaime and Brienne from Game of Thrones, and that is correct.

[00:28:10.200] - Beth

Did you see that she. There's another Welsh blades. One coming out, one burning heart.

[00:28:15.730] - Chels

Oh, my God. I didn't see that.

[00:28:17.360] - Beth

Yeah.

[00:28:17.590] - Chels

That's so fun.

[00:28:18.300] - Chels

Yeah. It's supposed to come out in August, so listeners take notes.

[00:28:24.120] - Chels

Maybe by the time, yeah, this episode might be out, but it's gonna be up.

[00:28:28.250] - Beth

But, like, seriously. So hopefully it's good. I guess we can't speak to its quality yet, but I'm excited.

[00:28:34.630] - Chels

I trust her. I like her a lot. Even if it's not good, it's gonna be interesting.

[00:28:38.200] - Beth

Yes.

[00:28:39.110] - Chels

And then, of course, my absolute favorite medieval romance for my Lady's heart by Laura Kinsale, which is originally published in 1993. And it's such an ambitious book. So Kinsale added in a lot of Middle English, which makes the prose really sing, and it kind of demands that the reader step out of their comfort zone and pay attention. So there's nothing vague about the setting. And for my lady's heart, there's court politics. There's, like, fear, plague, and you can tell that Kinsale is thinking about what her characters would actually do rather than what a modern reader can comfortably stomach. So ruck is a knight who swears fealty to an italian princess named Melanthe and escorts her on this long, arduous journey. And Ruck has idolized Melanthe from afar as this beautiful, perfect woman. She's become a symbol to him, like a figurehead. The real melanthe is kind of mean and ruthless and extremely funny. When you meet her, she's having her nephew alegretto discard a dead body in a guard robe. But, yeah, I do agree about the violence. Like, medieval romances are often much more violent than regency romances, which may have violence isolated out to, like, duels or extra judicial killing of the quote unquote evil characters.

[00:29:47.290] - Chels

There's more likely to be, like, blood plague, main character, death and war and medieval romance and, yes, many, many, many bathroom scenes. I think I remember when we were talking about Indigo, you were like, oh, there's, like a. Someone talks about going to the bathroom, and all I could think about was, like, all the medievals I had read about that.

[00:30:03.140] - Emma

I love it.

[00:30:03.830] - Chels

It happens so often.

[00:30:04.940] - Emma

I love sort of, sort of, like, nasty stuff that happens. Like, I think Sherry Thomas is someone who does, like, 19th century books who has, like, nasty scenes happen, like, where people, like, vomit or, like, go to the bathroom or, like, there's some sort of, like, human element to it. I just. I love that stuff. Like, I think it. It makes everything so much more grounded and it's, like, good. I don't know. I like when things are, like, romantic next to nasty. I think it makes. It's, like, a good juxtaposition, contrast. And so I think that's one of the reasons I think I'm always, as much as I love regency, and I do consider myself a regency dude, I'm often hungry for something that does something different. And one of the reasons I often, like, go to a medieval is I'm in the mood for that.

[00:30:45.410] - Beth

Yeah. I think I have the most charitable feelings to Garwood's books, but I've only read one, which was on their splendor, so that might be why,

[00:30:52.810] - Chels

um, I love the secret. Okay. Just throwing that in there, I think it's really good.

[00:30:59.100] - Emma

I like what I said. I read. I just don't finish them. I'm like, once they, like, I like The secret. I like The bride. I just technically have never finished them. I'm just like, I feel like when.

[00:31:07.220] - Chels

I picked up Garwood, you guys were, like, careful not to, like, influence my opinion of her. You were like, yeah, you'll see it when you see it. I was like, see what.

[00:31:16.680] - Emma

Her heroines are. They're just, they're all so tiny and perfect.

[00:31:20.950] - Chels

Oh, yeah, I guess I did kind of. I did. One of the very first tiktoks I ever made was gently poking fun at the bride, because I just read the bride and the heroine, and the bride is just, like, so perfect at everything, and, like, everyone's always talking about, they're like, oh, my God, that beautiful, perfect girl.

[00:31:39.300] - Emma

And she's the one who is the youngest daughter, and so she shouldn't even be the one who they give all the power to, but they're like, obviously she's the one who's gonna become in charge because she's so pretty.

[00:31:48.720] - Chels

She's beautiful, though, guys. Like, she's so pretty. Like. And I was just like, all right, this is laying it on a little thick. Like, even I am a regular romance reader of old school romance where everybody is beautiful all the time.

[00:32:02.080] - Beth

Yeah.

[00:32:02.410] - Chels

And I'm like, come on. Come on, guys. But that's what. Anyway, sorry, Beth and I just wanted.

[00:32:10.170] - Beth

To reference, like, from your earlier point. We started talking about this at the beginning, like, vague medieval sitting settings. I kind of feel like I almost appreciate Alice Coldbreath's approach, where she just literally makes up her own country. That's, like, vaguely medieval because she doesn't want to do. If you don't want to do the history and you're kind of making your own world anyway. I don't know. I kind. I guess I just wanted to throw that out there. I kind of appreciate the cold breath approach.

[00:32:36.690] - Chels

I have read every single one of those books.

[00:32:40.290] - Emma

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:43.630] - Beth

I feel like it works. It works for her. I like what she's doing. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:32:48.870] - Emma

I do like that in Shadowheart. So Shadowheart, the sequel to former lady's heart, they go to Italy with Allegretto, and it's, like, the country, it's a city state that they're dealing with in Italy is totally made up, and the politics are totally made up. And so it's kind of like you get both in the same universe of, like, the more grounded England romance, and then you go to the continent and things go like.

[00:33:10.060] - Beth

Yeah, I don't mean to, like, do. I think we're gonna talk about this? But she does that in this book, too. Like, she re. She kind of, like, changes the history up a bit. She talked about an author's note.

[00:33:19.200] - Chels

Yeah. Yeah. It was like something about Henry's invasion. Like, she, like, shortened the time period between the first and the second. It's always so interesting what authors will note in their author's note that they changed and what they don't care about noting.

[00:33:36.110] - Beth

Right.

[00:33:36.720] - Chels

Author's notes are fascinating.

[00:33:39.610] - Emma

Yeah. So more about the setting, just in general, is that something I was thinking about with this, especially because I think Keeper of the Dream kind of calls attention to it, is that the thing that we call medievals is, like, a much wider setting. So an author that I think I mentioned in the intro, but we haven't talked about in detail yet, is Johanna Lindsay. So she wrote fires of winter, which I think is one of the most famous medievals, but it also has a Welsh heroine, but it's during the Viking invasion, which is in the 9th century. So it's 300 years before the setting of keeper of the dream. But both are classed as medieval. Like, you'll see them on lists together. Talk about them in a group as if they're, like, the same. And I think this is actually one of the most interesting things about the medieval period as people who consume medieval set content. And I think this is true, like, since the 19th century, when people sort of started romanticizing the medieval period, that we have this sort of flat conception of the time period compared to how it must have been for the people who lived through it.

[00:34:33.050] - Emma

And it pops up in keeper of the dream a couple of times because Ariana thinks about Taliesin, who had ever heard about a wizard wandering around in these modern times. She thinks of wizards and King Arthur and the sort of Camelot period that Taliesin is from as ancient time. She thinks of this as, like, the early medieval period that is so distant from her current modern life. And she also references the stories of King Arthur and we, as a culture, like, in 2024, maybe associate those stories most with the 1100s, like the chivalric romances that are coming out of the Plantagenet court. But they're set again, they're set a long time before the first time they appear, which is, I think, in the 9th century. They're referencing a king who lived 300 years ago. So we associate King Arthur with a medieval period, but he is a character who lived a thousand years before when his stories come from. So I think this concept of past is really important for the medieval period and what stories we're telling about ancient kings.

[00:35:38.050] - Beth

Right. I liked your point about how wide this time period is. There aren't sub genres where you have the black Death era, which was 1347 to 1351, or even so romantic. I know, I was just like. I'm like, what's a short time period I could pull here?

[00:35:57.530] - Chels

My historical romance set during the black Death era.

[00:36:01.450] - Beth

They're survived.

[00:36:02.840] - Emma

I mean, Allegretto is so afraid of the plague in for my lady's heart.

[00:36:07.340] - Chels

He's afraid of so charming, the birds.

[00:36:09.910] - Emma

His dad and the plague.

[00:36:11.450] - Chels

Oh, the deer falcon. Grigalette, shout out to Gringalette.

[00:36:17.310] - Beth

But even, like, broader categories, like, you don't have, like, early middle ages versus, like, late middle ages. Like, it's all just, like, medieval. And you pointed this out a lot, Emma, because we all do this, and I mean this, like, in the royal we of, like, flattening several time periods into one. And, like, people in romance will have victorian attitudes. In the Regency era, I have thought, to be fair, we don't know as much about the medieval time in general. There's just not as much documentation. So I think that could play a part of it, too. I did have a random thought. I don't know where else to drop this. I kind of like that Ariana and Raine had that scene where she swears plt to him. I wondered, while I was reading this, how, like, some readers might feel about Ariana submitting to him. But in this context, it's more commonly, like, how people organize their communities. Like, you swore fealty to a lord, right. I think the scene is still, like, I don't know if women were regularly swearing fealty to their liege lord, but I think too often we take our own how we organize our nuclear families and project it into the past as well.

[00:37:26.260] - Beth

And it's just nothing how people organized. So Williamson does a really good job.

[00:37:33.550] - Chels

At telling you through Ariana's perspective, like, how much of an honor that is. That is more rain, by having her do this. Because he could just tell her what to do.

[00:37:44.090] - Chels

Yes.

[00:37:44.560] - Chels

He doesn't need to have this sort of symbolic thing, but by doing this, he's elevating her to someone who, in a way, that she feels like she matters more. I think this is something that really skilled historical romance authors are able to communicate. And so only the most boneheaded readers won't get it is that your modern idea may not translate. And being able to communicate that in a way that makes sense to people, I think about Mary Wine doing this all the time, because there's this. Mary Wine writes his Scottish Historicals, and there's this one book where, you know, the thing where, like, after you consummate a marriage, there's, like, the bloody sheet and you fly it. And, like, a lot of people are like, oh, my God, that's horrible for women. And that's a terrible thing. And, like, one of the characters that she has, I think it's in the book, betting the enemy is so, so proud of this moment. And I fully bought into that. Like, because she did such a good job of explaining, explaining her thought process and her motivation and made me, like, her. Made me want be on her side, made me kind of understand her method of thinking.

[00:39:02.190] - Chels

That's a skill. Like, it's not how I think, but, like, to be able to communicate that and I think Williamson does that really well with Ariana in that scene, too. But, yeah, I know quite a bit less about medieval history than I do about 18th and 19th century. So that collapse of the time period is not as obvious to me. But something that I've gleaned from historians is that there is this lot of common wisdom about barbarism from that period, like chastity belts and extreme torture devices and some types of punitive sexism, that are kind of modern ideas of what that time was like, perhaps. Because, again, that as time goes on, things, we want to believe that things get more and more progressive. So naturally, the middle ages, which are, like, so far away, they had to be, like the worst in every conceivable way. And in some ways, that's not accurate. But one thing that I really love about historical romance is that it kind of combats this idea that people in the past were less human than we are now, which I think a lot of people legitimately believe. They're the same of us in a lot of ways.

[00:40:09.210] - Chels

They fell in love, they had friends, they had dreams, they had anguish. They've stories worth reading. And I think that's kind of like what makes these books so exciting.

[00:40:19.220] - Emma

Yeah, I think that perception of the Middle Ages as a dark period or this nostalgic period that we need to go back to, I think a lot of that comes from the Victorian period with the pre Raphaelites and romanticization of these stories. And then we're returning to something that is somehow, I think, both the romanization or the barbarism. Either way, you're telling a story about a period that can be told much more neutrally. And so the history, like just a little bit of context about the history, mostly from the author's note. So we're dealing with an actual invasion. So Henry did invade Wales in 1157, and then by six years later, which is the collapsing that happens a little bit, the king would gain fealty of Owain Gwynedd, the real prince. And I think the thing that's most interesting about the history here is sort of the. As it happens in the book, is like the different interests. Like, we have people who identify as Welsh and their references to previous Saxon invaders, which would have been, like, in the 9th century with the setting of the Johanna Lindsay Book and now the Normans. And the way that, like, English identity is kind of fluid at this moment.

[00:41:27.240] - Emma

Like Arianne is always calling Raine the Norman. He's not the English person, he's the Norman. England is mostly a. And English is not quite an identity. And then also the Earl of Chester is a real title. So that's Hugh's title, Raine's brother, who's legitimate. And it's one of the titles that sort of becomes a part of the Prince of Wales. It's now a subsidiary title. So, like, Prince William is now the Earl of Chester, and it was as powerful as William described. So the king really did need the earl's fealty more than the earl needed the king's protection because of this, like, border land that he was on. And so Reign is Norman because most of the aristocracy in England at the time is made up of Normans from the 1066 conquest. And he's the son of the Earl of Chester. So he and his cohort would mostly be speaking French and identify more with Normans than, like, the english identity. Like, for example, Ariana, when she teaches Raine to read, she's teaching him french words, not english words. I also think this, like, grounded history, like, makes for, like, we can have, like, more fun with it.

[00:42:24.220] - Emma

Like, that's where we. When we get the magic and we get Taliesin and the magic stuff. I think it works well because we're dealing with this very specific dates of history, and then we also get a wizard who's just having the best time. So actually talking about the book, I want to talk about the opening.

[00:42:40.840] - Emma

So the book starts really violently, and I was really surprised at how quickly I transitioned when I was reading it, from the feeling of, oh, my God, he killed her brother, to, y'all need to start kissing.

[00:42:50.140] - Emma

Like, I thought that transition was going to take so much longer for me to get to, even when I knew that this couple was endgame. And I also thought it would be more harrowing for me. Like, I would have to do more work to get there. One of the things I think helped with this was the nature of Arianas visions. A couple of them she has insight into rains past. This is something that causes trouble, like, when she sees the history with Sybil, but also her knowing things that he would never disclose to her so early. He gets upset with her when he realizes just how much she knows about him, like the abuse and neglect from both his parents.

[00:43:22.770] - Emma

Also, Ariana has visions where she is Raine. She's embodying him in some way. She feels his pain and his injuries. I think Williamson sets you up to think that it might be an opposite attract book. They're on opposite sides of a war. She's a noble daughter, he's an illegitimate son. But I think it pretty quickly turned into almost a Cathy and Heathcliff situation from Wuthering Heights. They're from different places, but are actually so, so similar in how they operate in the world and really feel each other's feelings. And I think a lot of the miscommunication in this book comes down to either of them assuming the other one operates so differently from the other. Raine assumed Ariana's actions are that of a noble princess that makes wants to make him look like a fool instead of a very loyal, very stubborn soldier, which I think she identifies much more with that identity. And then Ariana thinks all Normans are without logic in their violence. Whereas Raine rarely does something without a reason. He just now never tells her the reason. And so then we get all these moments of miscommunication.

[00:44:15.970] - Beth

Yeah, to your first point, it was kind of a quicker transition, but I kind of appreciate that. I feel like how I've seen Williamson operate. Maybe she's more in the tradition of the doorstopper romances that burn through. More plot. Instead of doing a Sherry Thomas deep dive, I think both approaches work really well. It's just like, what kind of book do you want to write? But even in a deep dive of a single conflict, you're still making progress and hitting new plot points with the miscommunication. I do love a couple whose physical chemistry is off the charts. So, like, the emotional part, like, the hard conversation of, like, what the hell is our relationship, is several beats behind. So they do get stuck in cycles of miscommunication. But you've got so much plot, like we talked about with Garwood, it's like they're good and then you got outside conflict still. But I think if you're going to have this book that long with outside conflict, you still need your couple in turmoil. A bit like, I don't know. So I. I think that works really well. That was fine with how much they were miscommunicating.

[00:45:23.420] - Chels

I think Williamson could have written a book where Ariana was furious with Raine for most of it, both for, like, political and personal reasons. So, like, the death of her brother at the beginning of the book is really sad. So Cadro is only a year older than Ariana and had just lost his wife and baby in childbirth. And you watch him go from being terrified to having this sort of like, righteous energy which ends up getting him killed by Raine in the battle. I think if Christine Monson wrote this book, Raine and Arianne would have been much more cutthroat with each other for much longer. And the ramifications of the death would have lingered throughout the novel, but this is a Williamson book and that's not really her style. So while Ariana initially hates Raine for the invasion and for killing her brother, she thinks later on that her father, Owain sent one of his sons to die with kind of a sort of more distanced practicality. When Arianne marries Rain, she takes her vows very seriously. She feels guilty when she withholds information from Raine to protect her cousins and seems to start aligning more with his interests.

[00:46:26.260] - Chels

Raine doesn't quite get that Ariana has had this mental shift, so he's always. He always thinks that Ariana is mocking him and he has good reason to. Like, if you remember, before they marry, she shows up to their wedding in a sackcloth to embarrass him and signal her displeasure. So then, like, later when Ariana throws him a birthday party, he thinks it's like another one of her, like, elaborate mockeries. So similarly, Ariana withholding information to protect her cousin is something that Raine is well aware of, but he just doesn't know what the extent is that she's in on the scheme and he kind of assumes the worst. But what makes it so interesting is that Ariana and Raine have this. Like, Raine doesn't trust Ariana and thinks that she's working against him. And he's kind of right. Like, it is a miscommunication. But she still is. Like, she acknowledges that she's putting her husband in danger by not telling him this information. But even with that knowledge, like, Raine still really likes her.

[00:47:29.140] - Emma

That works so well. When I was writing the plot summary, it's like something bad would happen and it's like. And then they had sex and it's like they're still trying to figure out their. I think part of it is that Ariana is like, I married you. And that's one of the things I love about historicals, is that you cannot. I mean, I'm pro divorce laws in real life, but I like when couples are together, it's like we gotta figure it out. And Ariana's like, I'm not leaving this house. Like, I am married to you. We are a couple. And it's like, she's like, well, I do want this aspect of our relationship to work and she does really want kids. So she's like, I gotta keep having sex with him. Cause I do want to be a mom. And it's like they're. And they're even. They throw that at each other sometimes. Like when they're fighting about their sort of communication or their loyalty, they're like, well, don't let that affect the fact that, like, we really do, like, having sex with each other. Like, don't. Don't spoil that because, like, we'll figure out the other stuff eventually.

[00:48:21.780] - Emma

But, like, right now, like, we are pretty good at this one thing, and it just. It makes for a fun book,

[00:48:27.450] - Beth

Think in even just, like, your modern relationship, it's like building your loyalty to your partner and, like, you're a unit. So even when you have, like, your family who might need something, it's like balancing that out. And this is what it feels like to the extreme. Like, in. In this time, you balancing his political loyalties, but it's also, like, her family. So I get why it is so hard for her to let go and take on this new identity and be a new couple with him. It's hard. She's gonna mess up, and not even that mess up is the wrong word. But just what does she want? Does she really want this? And she's figuring it out?

[00:49:07.980] - Chels

Yeah. It's kind of competing interest, right? Like, someone you've known for your whole life, who you love in a certain way.

[00:49:14.330] - Beth

She just met this guy.

[00:49:16.070] - Beth

Yeah, she just met this guy. But also, like, she takes being a wife very serious. Seriously.

[00:49:21.550] - Emma

Yeah, she does.

[00:49:22.540] - Beth

She meditates on it a lot. Like, what does a wife owe her husband? Like, what's my duty here?

[00:49:26.980] - Emma

Like, yeah. And I was just gonna say, like, this comes up a few times when she's, like, especially when she's talking to her family, her male family members. She knows that Raine will not hurt her. Like, even though it's a bodice ripper in, like, the first scene, and he does, like, accidentally give her a black eye the first time they have sex. Like, when Rodri betrays the family and gives the information, when the cousin, both of those men are like, I'm kind of worried about you going back to him or taking the fall for this. She's like, I know that Raine will not hurt me. And she just totally trusts that. And I think the reader trusts that, too. I was never worried about Raine hitting her or violently responding to her betrayals, and he never does really. He will shout at her and leave and be upset, but he never. That danger, it sort of taken off the table pretty early, and I think that also helps where it's, like, why Ariana is willing to take the falls sometimes when she's not actually the one betraying Raine is that violence for that couple is taken off the table.

[00:50:22.930] - Emma

Just in their dynamic pretty fast.

[00:50:24.610] - Beth

Yeah. And I feel like she does something interesting with it, like you're talking about. She knows that he won't harm her male family members, so that's why she's always covering for them. That's why it's adding to the miscommunication. So good job, Williamson.

[00:50:37.920] - Emma

Yes. So I want to talk about the magic in the book because I think it adds a lot. And so we've done one episode of a book with a heroine with a special power before, so For the Earl's Pleasure by Anne Mallory. But this book is different because magic sort of exists throughout the world of Wales that Williamson creates. We have Ariana's visions, Taliesin, who we'll get to in a minute. And there's also just like lots of magic and superstitions of the culture. And no one seems to doubt Ariana's vision. So that's not one of the stakes that we have here, which is like the main plot of For the Earl's Pleasure that bobody understands what's going on. Raine gets mad at Ariana, not because she's having visions, but because he feels violated by her intruding into his past. But he doesn't doubt that they're real. And her family just sort of accepts that this is a part of who she is. It almost seems like an honor, like she gets to wear the necklace that designates her as a seer. I'm more interested in how magic scenes work in the novel than the magic system.

[00:51:28.710] - Emma

So Ariana is introduced with a vision of a person who she later realizes is Raine stabbing her in the heart with a lance. And so we know from the jump that there's going to be pain out of this relationship. It creates anticipation when Ariana sees something for the future. The visions of the past mostly serve to move the relationship along, revealing information about Raine to Ariana. What do you think of this as a choice by Williamson? She could have written the same novel without the magic pretty easily, because so much of the conflict comes from miscommunication and the external conflict of the war, but we get this added layer of the knowledge being shared because of the magic.

[00:51:58.940] - Chels

I think this is her way of doing a fated mates type of story. No other option for them to end up with anyone else. And that opening scene does a lot of work both to establish that fact and also to establish the amount of anguish it's gonna take that gets there. Taliesin makes this explicit later through his commentary, but this is something the reader gets more benefit from than the couple who seem to mostly be ignoring him at this point. Ariana recognizing Raine in real life as the night in her vision is something that she carries with her. She fears how he's gonna impact her I life, and she isn't sure what form their relationship is going to take. When Ariana gets visions into Raine's past, she's learning information that he possibly would never tell her. So Hugh is probably the only person she knows who would be able to clue her in on, like, specifically, like, that dungeon scene. But it's likely that she wouldn't trust his version of events, or his version of events would be deliberately misleading. So when she learns about how mistreated Raine was by his father and she starts to understand a little bit more why his birth is such a sore spot and why he's so guarded with her, the sympathy she has for him is what prods her to try to make more of a home for Rain.

[00:53:13.510] - Chels

I do want to mention this part in the beginning that made me laugh. Taliesin tells Raine that Ariana is a true seer in the manner of the ancient ones. And Raine responds with, Aye? Well, she can't be very good at it, and more's the pity. Otherwise, she'd have seen her own future enough to have avoided it, and we'd both have been spared a marriage neither of us wants.

[00:53:31.600] - Beth

I like what you said, Chels, that you think this is kind of like a fated maids type of story. And I just. My only point is, I think the magic kind of just adds to the tone of the book, as opposed to like. Cause like Emma said, you could have taken the magic out and the story still kind of functionally would have been the same, which is kind of opposite to Anne Mallory's, like, For the Earl's Pleasure. The plot wouldn't work if the heroine couldn't see ghost. But, yeah, I think it just. It works. I liked it.

[00:54:05.630] - Emma

You just sort of trust that things could happen. Like, when people are fatally wounded and then they're not dead, it's like, sure, I believe it.

[00:54:12.450] - Chels

I also really liked Ariana. Whenever she could feel a vision coming on, she'd be like, no, no. Yeah.

[00:54:20.510] - Beth

Like, it looks like she's passed out even though she's well.

[00:54:23.250] - Chels

And then she's also kind of gets to a point where she's, like, learning information that she doesn't want to have. I think one of her visions is about Sybil and Raine, and I think that she knows that that's what she's gonna see, because they just had. They previously had that conflict. So, yeah, the way that Williamson writes it is very interesting, and I think she uses it. I mean, we're gonna talk more about this specific with Sybil a little bit later, but, yeah, I'm pro.

[00:54:50.840] - Emma

Yeah, it was just an interesting way to do sort of like a dual timeline romance. Like, we're not getting, like, literal flashing. It's like.

[00:54:56.680] - Beth

Yeah, it just.

[00:54:58.090] - Emma

Yeah, I think it works that way with, like, kind of like Sherry Thomas, where, like, we jump back into someone's path. It's like a second chance romance. You get a reason to do a dual timeline and it's like a shared history, but it's not shared between. It's shared knowledge, but not shared events. It's just, it's. It's. I've never read a book that handles it that way.

[00:55:15.570] - Beth

So, yeah, I'm pro flashback, although I think they can be used poorly or, like, needlessly. So I feel. I like what you said because I think it keeps it in the plot. She sees this vision. She now has this information. It keeps the plot going instead of kind of halting. And then we have a flashback.

[00:55:34.290] - Chels

Yeah. And it also adds the conflict of Raine seeing this as a violation. Yes, because this is not information about himself that he's choosing to discuss clothes and that he probably. That he views as extremely humiliating. And the last person he wants to be humiliated in front of is Ariana.

[00:55:51.900] - Emma

He says it's more intimate than them having sex. He's like, this is, like. Which she also references, like, being in love is more intimate than sex. And this is like, his version of that is like, she's afraid of, like, expressing her love to him when it's not going to be reciprocated. And he's afraid of, like, sharing this information with her. Okay, now we get to talk about Taliesin, who is probably my favorite character maybe ever. I love him. I just love him so much. Like, I was so delighted by everything he did. I feel maybe like the way I feel about Allegretto in For My Lady's Heart. So, Taliesin, we're very pro little weird side characters. And he immediately reminded me of Piero from the Silver Devil and Kat from the Windflower. He's a petulant teen who's moody and weird and just, like, pops up in random places. And I think he's a great stand in for a romance reader because his main job is to fret around and think, why are Ariana and Raine not kissing yet? Like, he, as his, like, wizard self, knows that they are fated to be together, and he's always trying to get them together and he gets so frustrated, that they haven't figured it out yet.

[00:56:55.410] - Emma

So while reading this, I did know the name Taliesin from wealth's mythology. So I knew pretty early in the book that he was going to be more than just, like, a cheeky teen squire. So I like, especially when he's introduced as a Norman, I was like, why does he have a Welsh name? The answer is because he's a wizard. So he's a bard, but in Welsh mythology, he's a bard, but he's also a companion figure to many medieval legends like King Arthur. He'll show up in Welsh versions of those stories accompanying the knight. And so that's where he gets sort of this immortal quality that we see in the book, where he's simultaneously a teen and an old man. Also kind of like Merlin, who ages backwards. He has some elements of that. So how did he work for you? His level of missing with the main couple just really outdoes even our weirdest little weirdos yet is that he's just always got his fingers in the pot of this ship.

[00:57:41.980] - Chels

Taliesin is so funny. Okay, this quote from early on, "I didn't want to mention this to you before, but the lady Arianne is your destiny, sire, and you've bungled things so badly, I fear you are now going to have to go on a most arduous quest to win her love. A baffled experience crossed the boy's face. I can't understand why this is happening, but the whole thing is not going at all as smoothly as I had once thought it would. This is just like such." He said, this is like his thing. Throughout the whole book. Every time he shows up to both Ariana or Rain, he's like, this is not what I wanted. This is not how. This is not on my vision board, guys. And it's always very funny. Well, that's something.

[00:58:24.250] - Beth

That's, like, my only point. I'm like, he's just like a matchmaker. And at first I was like, why is he playing matchmaker with these two people? Like, he just says a few.

[00:58:32.920] - Chels

What else is a wizard gonna do?

[00:58:34.390] - Beth

Yeah, he's like, you idiots. You were supposed to be together. You're not acting in the correct way. I cannot emphasize how often this happens in the play.

[00:58:41.830] - Chels

So often. And something that's extremely funny to me is that Taliesin is always lecturing Raine and Ariana about how they're not falling in love properly, but everything he does to push them in that direction, goes south. So he's like that boss that's bad at giving directions and then takes it out on his clueless employees. Like, it's funny to think of Taliesin as a reader's stand-in because we're always kind of like, you know, reading the story, we're like, oh, now why would you do it that way? And the answer is because neat resolutions make a. For a boring story. One thing I did kind of think of, though, is I wanted to note that when Ariana thinks her cousin killed Taliesin is when she finally turns her back on him. And I think that kind of feels significant to me in more than just a, oh, you killed a young boy and that's a bridge too far type of way. Like, if you kill Taliesin, what happens to Ariana and Raine's fated love?

[00:59:38.390] - Emma

He's kind of like the guardian of them and he's, like, making sure that they stay together.

[00:59:42.430] - Chels

Yeah, yeah. It's like you're killing her future.

[00:59:46.930] - Beth

Yeah. I feel like the magic scenes, because he is like a magical character, is kind of like this consistent, like, holding the tone of the book consistent because, like, when you first start, it feels, like, really violent and, like, a lot. So, like, from, I don't know how you. How you guys felt, but, like, when I first started it, I would not have anticipated where the novel was gonna go. Kind of based on, like, the setup and, like, what is literally happening on page.

[01:00:13.240] - Emma

Those first two chapters could have been like a Stormfire book.

[01:00:15.640] - Beth

Yeah, I honestly thought that's what I thought.

[01:00:17.510] - Beth

I was like, we're doing another storm fire. But no, it's not like that. And I think it's because of the magic and the kind of fated mates quality of this story. A random side note. When Raine imposes that tax on the Welsh and he takes a bunch of cattle and Ariana protests this by showing up to the wedding in sackcloth and ashes. Taliesin berates her after Raine makes her change, saying he's going to give it. Like, that Raine was going to give the cattle back and now she's ruined everything. But, like, how would Ariana know that?

[01:00:50.760] - Chels

He's like, you idiot. Why aren't you a wizard like me?

[01:00:57.560] - Emma

And then Taliesen is wrong? He said now he can't give the cattle back. And then Ariana sees later the cattle going back and she's like, taliesin was wrong. Like, he did give the cattle back. So now I'm mad at Raine for no reason.

[01:01:07.350] - Chels

Yeah, but maybe he's mostly good at being a bard. Maybe that's his real skill. Like, wizarding is, like, his hobby.

[01:01:14.270] - Emma

He's kind of like Clarence from it's a wonderful life where he's like a. Like a. Like an angel second class. Like he hasn't figured out how to be a wizard yet. And he's like, I'm trying to do the right thing, but, like, they're not. They're not. And, yeah, like, he. He's the one who suggests that Ariana deliver the grain to the monks for the granite. And then it's like, well, of course. Ariana then gets, like, the grain gets stolen by her cousin, and then Raine's like, well, you betrayed me. And Taliesin's like, I. Literally anyone could have taken the grain to the monks. It didn't have to be her. Until Taliesin comes up and, like, arrives. And, I mean, I. Look, it starts from the jump. Like, when Taliesin, he ties up Ariana.

[01:01:53.800] - Chels

And puts her in Raine's tent. And then he's like, guys, you were supposed to like each other. I was like, what did you think.

[01:02:01.260] - Emma

Was Raine thinks Taliesin has delivered him, like, a war prize. And it's like, oh, like, here's a woman that I can sleep with. He's like, you're not supposed to. You're not supposed to rape her. You're supposed to woo her. And he's like, she's hog tied in my bed. What? What did you think? What did you think I was gonna think? He. It's, uh. He's so. He's so delightful. And he really does, like, I was, like, laughing out loud at so many moments for him. And also, I love when Ariana pretty, because she's Welsh, she's like, clocks him. She's like, she knows he has a Welsh name. He speaks Welsh. She knows there's something going on with him. And so she's like, well, he's a wizard. And Taliesin's like, I'm not a wizard. And then a couple times she, like, matter of factly says this to Rey. And she's like, well, you know, Taliesin's a wizard, right? And he's like, I don't think so. But, like, we'll address that later.

[01:02:48.110] - Beth

I feel like this is, like, such a fun dynamic where you have, like, your gruffs, surly adventure dude with your, like, like, bard sidekick who doesn't take anything seriously. I don't know. I'm also thinking of the witcher, where there's that exact same dynamic.

[01:03:06.960] - Chels

Everybody needs their own silly little guy.

[01:03:09.020] - Beth

Yeah, you just need a silly little guy to get you through life.

[01:03:12.960] - Emma

Taliesin is also the one who comes up with the battle. He's like, oh, between him and Hugh, the duel at the tournament. He's like, well, what if you dueled and then, like, you get to marry Ariana if you win? Raine's like, I don't want to marry her. Why are you talking? It's so great.

[01:03:29.680] - Chels

And Henry's like, what an amazing idea.

[01:03:32.210] - Emma

Young bard Taliesin's the best. We are going to talk about the other two main side characters. So Hugh and Sybil are very interesting, and they. I think that the short end of the stick in Goodreads reviews that I read, people want to cast them as straight villains, and I don't think either of them. You could do that with either of them, even though both of them do things that are, quote unquote bad or, like, in conflict with the main relationship. So Hugh is Raine's younger legitimate brother, and Sybil is Hugh's wife, who Raine was in love with as a child, who he then leaves to go on the crusades to try and, like, make his name. But when he returns, she's marrying Hugh and she thought we could just talk about our thoughts about this couple and the dynamic between Hugh and Raine, Hugh and Sybil, and then also Hugh and Ariana, who have a dynamic that is kind of tragic.

[01:04:22.120] - Beth

Yeah. We were talking before we started recording and we all agreed. I kind of felt like it was going to be like a secondary love story with them. Like, that they would find between Sybil and Hugh, that they would find their way back to each other.

[01:04:38.310] - Chels

Yeah, that's what I was hoping for. Like, kind of in Midsummer Moon, where the duke's brother and his wife, kind of like, it's not neatly resolved by the end. Like, it's not like a fully fleshed out love story, but, like, you kind of see the beginnings. Like, I thought that maybe that would happen and it didn't, and so I was a little bummed by that. But I think they're very interesting characters to think about. So Hugh and Raine kind of have this mutual jealousy. Raine is very jealous of Hugh for being legitimate and kind of having this easier way of life, being able to accumulate wealth and the father's love and the neat trajectory he gets Sybil quite easily. That's the chip on Rain's shoulder. But Hugh is kind of aware that Raine is really good at things. Like Raine is an excellent night, Raine is really good at making friends, and Raine also has always had Sybil's love, and Hugh is in love with his wife. And so he wants that allegiance from Sybil. He wants her to love him, but he hasn't really made that connection that he needs to win Sybil's love.

[01:05:55.670] - Chels

He needs to put in the effort. Like, his title isn't enough. And so instead he's kind of putting his energy into other women or, like, ways to get back at rain, ways to channel this disappointment and jealousy in a way that's not going to work for his own love story. And so that's really compelling in a lot of ways because Hugh also, he attacks Ariana at the very beginning of the book and then also kind of towards the end, part of the bargain he makes with Ariana when she wants to save rain. He says, I will do this if you sleep with me. And Ariana agrees. They don't end up doing it. Hugh is like, if I do this, Raine will just win again. Like, you know, oh, I'm sleeping with your wife, who doesn't want to sleep with me. Like, how? What am I getting out of this? So I think Hugh is a very interesting character, and he has kind of this, like, funny precociousness that would actually make for. I've read a lot in historical heroes, so I think that, like, I know Williamson didn't do it, but if she did, I could absolutely see her doing, like, a second chance with him and Sybil.

[01:07:08.950] - Chels

But Sybil, again, like, so Sybil, I think kind of what you were referring to. So on Goodreads in particular, there are a lot of reviews that talk about, like, other woman drama, and I. That's because Sybil repeatedly reinserts herself to rain. Because what you think about is Rain's marriage to Ariana is the first time Sybil sees him since her marriage. So these are. So she's been kind of harboring this for a long time, this sacrifice that she made, that to settle their relationship, to kind of like to protect rain. In a way, I do believe she's going to marry Hugh. And she has this idea in her mind that they are torn apart, lovers, like people who are holding candles for each other, and they have this mutual affection and this mutual longing. And this thing that Raine says to Sybil just kind of gutted me. He said, I don't hate you. I learned long ago that Life is divided into a few grand tragedies and a lot of little disappointments. You, sweet Sybil, were one of my little disappointments.

[01:08:23.610] - Beth

That's tough. Yeah.

[01:08:25.860] - Chels

Oh, my God. Because he is her grand tragedy. So she tries several times to win him, to ingratiate and to figure it out. And she's never unkind to Ariana, which I can't say the same in reverse. Ariana says a few things to Sybil—

[01:08:47.420] - Beth

—That are not well thought out at the best.

[01:08:49.770] - Chels

Yeah. Which, I mean, I know where she's coming from because it's like she is trying to steal your husband. So it's not like, maybe you don't need to be nice to her, but, like, it's.

[01:09:00.150] - Emma

At this point, she's like, Ariana was coerced into this marriage. Like, yeah, why would she care if I'm trying to sleep with her husband? And I think what Sybil realizes that there's affection between them. Sybil pulls away and she even has, like, a quote where she's like, I think you've fallen in love with your wife. You should go tell her that. But Sybil thinks it's a marriage of convenience, or, like, not even convenience, like distress.

[01:09:25.980] - Beth

When you were talking Chels and describing the relationship between Hugh or between Raine and Sybil, I was like, this. That could have been a romance novel. Like, Sybil's not crazy.

[01:09:39.270] - Chels

No, it's. How often does that happen? That's like, what is it? That one? Meredith Duran, At Your Pleasure. It's an intense love. It goes awry. One character gets married, reunited. It's a thing that we are used to happening, and it's also kind of a thing that, you know, it's just. It's just like, for. For rain, he's like, I grew up. I'm a different person.

[01:10:11.560] - Beth

Yeah.

[01:10:11.840] - Chels

Than I was when I loved you. And he does think, like, I did love her. And this is a sweet memory for me. This was a sweet summer.

[01:10:20.020] - Beth

I'm also not surprised that Sybil kind of is still holding a torch for him because her own marriage is kind of garbage. So it's like, I could see you trying to, like, live through that as being, you know, still, reminiscing or holding out that when he comes back, maybe you can still have a relationship with him, you know?

[01:10:38.640] - Chels

And what's interesting, too, is because Hugh says, so Hugh is like, a scoundrel and a womanizer, but he says, like, if she gives me—if Sybil gave me a crumb of the love that she gave Raine, like, I wouldn't look at anyone else. Like, she's the one that I want. And then there's the joust. I think, like, Ariana, like, looks at. He it's so funny.

[01:11:02.300] - Beth

My favorite things is when another character notices the yearning and they're like, oh, damn. She looks at him and she's like, oh, you love your wife. It's devastating. I don't know, there's something devastating to me about someone else observing it instead of getting the character's thoughts. It's like, I don't know.

[01:11:21.430] - Chels

Yeah, no, I really like that, too. And also, if you remember, so Ariana is watching Hugh look at Sybil, and then Raine sees Ariana look at Hugh, and then Raine is like, wait a second. Why are you looking at Hugh?

[01:11:38.430] - Beth

Yeah.

[01:11:38.930] - Emma

Raine is really convinced that Ariana is going to sleep with Hugh. And she becomes, like, jokes at a certain part for them. It's like, why would I sleep with your brother? I could take any lover if I wanted.

[01:11:50.370] - Beth

Yeah.

[01:11:51.050] - Emma

And it's like, why? And it's. It's so deeply ingrained that Raine is like, I will lose. Even though he knows Sybil doesn't love Hugh. So it's like that. It's like the injuries different than just that. It's more complicated. But he's just so used to Hugh getting everything. He gets Ariana, and he thinks she will be taken away from him either by death or by Hugh or something. He's going to lose this gift that he's been given by the universe. He's really convinced that it's going to go away.

[01:12:20.320] - Emma

All right, so when I was writing the plot summary for this, I struggled to do it because I think there's a big gap in how I felt about some of the sex scenes and how the characters felt about them. And I think that happens sometimes in bodice rippers. I would call this a bodice ripper because I do think the first time that they have sex, I would class it as non consensual, but I think there is an asterisk here. So Ariana does understand that the marriage is going to be consummated that night. What she's mad at is the other acts that Raine does. And so he goes down on her and she's sort of unprepared for any sort of romancing. And so that's what leads her to stabbing him in the arm. And her marriage is coerced. But also, before we even get to the consummation scene, she knows that it's the right decision for Wales and she's very interested in ending the war, so it's not even like she's not doing it under duress anymore. Maybe it's like she's making the choice to go in all in our marriage because she knows it's the right thing to do for her duty to her country that she feels so strongly.

[01:13:21.670] - Emma

Plus, the first scene that makes us a bodice ripper is so funny. I think it's one of the funniest scenes in the book, and it's hard. It's hard to even say that. Like, it's. It's a non consensual sex scene, but also, I'm laughing out loud, and it's just, like, a weird, total dissonance that I think works throughout the entire book and makes the book interesting. But I just wanted to talk about it. So, like, I laughed out loud when Ariana stabs Raine in the arm, because it just is so goofy. Because also, it's like that thing, that moment in a room. You're like, oh, he's actually trying to be a good lover during their first scene, and he's like, I'm gonna go down on her. I'm gonna try and make her enjoy this, even though she doesn't want to have sex with me. And, like, she's never had sex before. And then she stabs him, and I just can only imagine what he's thinking, where he's like, come on, man. Like, I'm trying so hard. And then I really laughed afterwards. So after they have sex, Raine goes around the room and, like, finds all these weapons that she's hidden because she's like, well, I can't.

[01:14:18.880] - Emma

I couldn't have had you do a French perversion on me, which her cousins have warned her about. She's like, he's Norman. He's gonna try to go down on you. That's not cool. That's bad. And then Raine is like, do Welsh people not do this? And he's like, oh, they're poor wives. So I think that sort of moment where you see Raine pulling out all these weapons captures the unique tone of the book. It's going to be funny, and it's going to be very violent. And I just wanted to hear your thoughts about how both sex scenes work in this book, whether they're consensual or non consensual. Because I think as the book goes on, the sex becomes more consensual, even if it's equally fraught. Like, they're having sex when they're still mad at each other and things. And then that, in the context of the tone of the book, that I think does a lot of things at.

[01:14:58.460] - Chels

Once there are some bodice ripper authors that go for humor over anguish, and I think that's what Williamson is doing in this book. Like, before he can consummate his marriage, Raine has to throw out that artillery's worth of weaponry that Arianna has stashed in their bedroom, and he even forgets to signal he's throwing weapons out a window before he starts doing it. And then he's like, oh, sorry, my bad. Like, it's very funny. I don't think that, like, negates or diminishes it from being, like, a bodice ripper. So I don't know if I would personally put an asterisk on it. The tone kind of reminded me of the Conqueror by Brenda Joyce, which is another medieval enemies to lovers bodice Ripper. But this one is Normans versus Saxon, so the conqueror leans more into goofiness. The hero is named Rolf, and at one point he says, they don't call me Rolf the relentless for nothing, which is a line that I have been repeating for years to make myself laugh, even though I think the conqueror is kind of mid. Both keeper and the Conqueror came out in the early nineties, so it's over 20 years since The Flame and the Flower.

[01:16:03.620] - Chels

So I kind of see it as Joyce and Williamson being a little bit cheeky about the expected behavior of the characters they chose to write, but then also kind of just looking at consent, how consent plays out. I think about how you characterize consent in historicals all the time, Emma. Like, when you talk about consent in books where people don't normally talk about consent, and the choices might not necessarily be the sex scene. It might be other scenes or other situations that. That create more tension in the sex scene that might not be explicated. But here, for Ariana, it's duty to sleep with your husband and have heirs. But her consent is violated even earlier when she's forced into this marriage that she doesn't want. So it's like, when the marriage happens, that's when she's like, okay, I have to do this now. But that's actually the violation, I think.

[01:16:54.740] - Emma

Yeah, I guess maybe that's what I mean with an asterisk. I just think if I. I guess I would think about it, especially as we talk about this book. Like, if I called this book a bodice ripper to someone else, I would feel like I'd have to explain, like, not like that. Like, it's. It's a bodice ripper that is interesting and funny, and, yeah, I think the consent the harrowing scene is when she is. the marriage is being explained to her by her brother, where she's like, I. Oh, my God, I have to. This is what's gonna happen. And then also the scene at the tournament when she realizes that Raine is going to win, which is also a very funny scene because it sort of sets you up for the tension of, like, everyone thinks Raine is going to win. And you're like, well, maybe that's not what happens because it's being laid on so thick that Raine is going to win. It's like, no, Raine wins. Raine is such a good knight. Yeah. The bodice ripper elements and sort of that harrowing feeling that you get comes outside the bedroom and then this other thing is played for sort of practicality and laughs in the bedroom.

[01:17:53.230] - Emma

Yeah. Because Ariana has already done the mental calculus by the time that we get there, but she will not have a good time until he woos her.

[01:18:00.350] - Beth

That's what she lands on. I kind of...one thing I feel like I complain a lot about with romance is sometimes there will be a conflict between the couple. They have sex, and then that conflict is never taken up again. But in this book, they will have a fight. They will have sex. Conflict is back on after the sex. So I was curious what you guys thought about that, where it's like, there'd be lots of times where I'm like, they were fighting and I'm like, they're about to. They're gonna kiss. Okay. They're gonna.

[01:18:38.920] - Chels

I think the most important thing to both of them is not to lose an argument. And so they might take a break.

[01:18:46.160] - Beth

That's just the break. We're just very physical. Break, reaffirm. We're still a couple. We're gonna get through this.

[01:18:54.070] - Emma

Yeah.

[01:18:54.960] - Chels

Or, like, the argument is like, maybe part of their, part of their. I think they're another thing, too, is like, the people talk about banter all the time, but, like, banter as the way that they argue is also flirting.

[01:19:08.210] - Beth

Like, they're.

[01:19:08.830] - Chels

They're both, like, taken in by, like, we are so charmed reading it. I think they kind of are the same. Like, they're angry, but they're also like, oh, that was a good point.

[01:19:16.970] - Chels

Yeah. And I think I could see how it leads to the bedroom and then also after out of the bedroom, but you're still wrong.

[01:19:25.590] - Emma

And I think Williamson does such a good job of having you on board with their dynamics so quickly. I think I was hesitating to pull some quotes out because I think if you pulled quotes out of this book out of context, there would be. It would Raine would seem a lot more violent to Ariana than he actually is. Like, I was thinking about the scene immediately after they have sex. Maybe it's not even immediately after. It's where she's basically asking him, like, how afraid of you should I be? Like, are you going to hit me? Like, I don't know what Normans do with their wives. And she explains to him, like, these are the three things that cause Welsh men, like, Welsh men are allowed to hit their wives over. And it's like, if they have sleep with another man, I don't remember the second one. And then the other one is like, if they're deficient in the bedroom. And he's like, well, you're not gonna sleep with someone else.

[01:20:09.620] - Chels

Insulting them in public.

[01:20:11.910] - Emma

And he's like, I don't think like, you're gonna do the first two. And also, like, we know that I have nothing to worry about in the penis department, so we're fine. And so it's like, it's this, like, looming thing. But also, he's trying to diffuse the situation with humor. He's saying, like, not only do I think those things aren't gonna happen, but also, like, I will never hit you. Like, it's this promise that I think if you take it out of context and you don't read the whole scene, it seems like he's diminishing her. It sounds weird. Sounds like he's diminishing her worries. It's like, actually, this is like Raine trying his best to, like, defuse the situation. And I think that that works really well.

[01:20:48.750] - Chels

And he calls back to it, too, doesn't. Doesn't he when she does something that makes him mad, he's like, well, this isn't on her. I can't do anything about it. It's just like, it's like he's making a joke about it. I feel like if you were just to quote that, people would be like, oh, gosh. But it's like, well, he's joking.

[01:21:07.680] - Emma

Yeah, it's very, like, Petruchio and Katarina dynamic, where it's like, it works for them and you just have to, like, be on board with it.

[01:21:16.300] - Chels

Yeah. Yeah.

[01:21:17.900] - Emma

So the last thing I wanted to talk about, we already talked a little bit about the cycles of miscommunication in this book, which I ultimately, I think it worked for me. But I do see where someone might get frustrated because the book is long medievals tend to be long, and there are lots of threads of conflict that are introduced that could easily be spun into the main thing of the book. So the issue of Hugh as villain ends up not being really the main conflict because so many other things happen. The other woman drama with Sybil, again, is like one drop in the many drops of communication, even the external conflict with Henry the king and rains changing loyalty as he goes from the English side to the Welsh side. But all these are really secondary to Ariana and Raine learning to trust each other. And something that I think works for this book. And one of the reasons why I think the long pace or the long page count works is because the book takes place over a lot longer period than many regencies, like two or three years at least, because she's pregnant twice in the book.

[01:22:06.700] - Emma

And there are quite a few time jumps that I think helps with pacing where I could get, there's like one scene where the couple's fighting and then one scene where they're making up. And I believe it because I think a few days or weeks even have passed between the fight and the making up. We trust that they've sort of been together doing their daily lives and let things simmer. And, and what it really reminded me of was Whitney, my love, mostly just by, like, how exhausted I was by the end of the book, where again, like, Raine and Ariana are doing their thing again, and, like, they're trying to work it out and they, like, take an inch forward and then, like, taking two steps back with, like, how their communication worked.

[01:22:42.650] - Chels

I definitely understand the Whitney comparison. It's similarly long, and you do get some repetition of, like, the same conflict with a couple that ultimately seems like they're going to continue to have similar fights well into the future. Judith McNaught updated Whitney, My Love with the hardback reissue in the nineties. And then she added a new epilog. So in the epilog, Whitney finds a portrait of Jennifer Westmoreland, Clayton's ancestor and the heroine of a kingdom of dreams. So an accompanying note talks about her husband's desire for this keepsake. It says, quote, it was his thought that my name should be engraved on the back of the frame, so that if my hopes for this chest come about, then you will be able to find my face among the many likenesses of all the duchesses of Claymore contained within the chest. I pray that each of your husbands will do as mine has done. I only wish that I could know your faces. So then Clayton hands Whitney her own portrait that is inscribed with Whitney, my wife and my love. And this to me is capital r romance. Like, this is bananas. This is unforgettable. This is also what I get from that scene after one of their later miscommunications, when Raine strips bear for Ariana to show his love for her.

[01:23:54.490] - Chels

It's like something that he said he would not do because of his pride. So he's slowly doing it, and Ariana's like, what are you doing? And it's just so unbelievably romantic. Grantchesters are a dime a dozen, but when you earn it, the payoff is remarkable. So you can get away with so much if you're the skilled. And I'm kind of comfortable putting Williamson in a class with McNaught. So I think, like, it is kind of exhausting, but it feels like this is our story. Like, this is our big romance. Like, it feels like a big romance in a way where I will let it get away with it. I think if anybody else did this, I would. I would have complain. And I mean, I still have complaints, but I will always say after them, I don't care. As you've noticed, the many times I talk about Whitney, yeah, I'm like, this was annoying, but also, I don't give a shit. I like it.

[01:24:41.120] - Beth

I like what you both said, and I feel like this kind of maybe clarified something for me. Where it's so often with romance, we're only getting a small snapshot of these two people typically coming together and kind of with the way these two books are, it's like you get a longer snapshot of that time together. It's an interesting way to approach romance where you get several years worth. So, yeah, if you've ever been in a relationship, you kind of do have cyclical fights, so it feels kind of real that way. But, yeah, I think that's cool if you can pull that off.

[01:25:18.040] - Emma

Yeah, I like both of those where we talk about happily ever after, and it's like, when does the happily ever after happen? Is it when the couple is together permanently and we believe that they're going to be together forever? Because that happens so early in this book, because they're so on board with their marriage so fast that it's like, I know that they're gonna work it out no matter what's happening, but it's like, I'm still interested in what's going on in their marriage. So it's like the timeline has shifted. I mean, so many. I mean, when a romance all ends with an engagement, I mean, it can work, but I do like seeing people when they're married together. I think the conflict, post marriage, post union, makes for interesting, interesting stuff.

[01:25:57.160] - Beth

Yeah. Not to be like, I don't know, they lose their child Nesta pretty early on. She's six months old, I think. I don't know if anyone else has had this thought where you had your partner of, like, what could maybe break us? Even when you've been through a lot with someone, like, sometimes you have that thought experiment of, like, is there something out there that could even, like, an outside circumstance that would just be really hard for us to go through? So I think Williamson is kind of exploring that with what happens with their with their baby.

[01:26:29.580] - Emma

Yeah. I will point out when he strips naked, he then immediately has to deliver the twins. That's like, oh, my God, I forgot. Performing midwifery naked.

[01:26:42.550] - Chels

As you do, he's like was poorly timed,

[01:26:46.950] - Emma

which, again, I think, captures the tone. Like, we have this big, grand gesture, and then she's like, well, I'm having a baby right now. It's like, you don't put your shirt back on like, you're my midwife. Okay?

[01:26:59.160] - Chels

And then he's like, oh, another one's.

[01:27:01.300] - Emma

And he's like, that's not happening. And she's like, well, who do you think, who's done this twice before now? It's me. I'm having another baby. Oh, it's so good.

[01:27:08.970] - Beth

You have a baby. Like, you're kind of naked. Everyone's naked. You know, there's just, like, unity in that they're all be bare together.

[01:27:18.200] - Emma

I like when I write the plot summaries because I have, like, all, like, rely on the same language over and over again. And one of the ones that happened a lot when I wrote this plot summary is like, and then Ariana goes off in a field, and it's like she walks into a field, Raine has to go find her, and it's like, she's, like, storming off, and she's like, she's in the field again. I'm like, okay. They're always having conflict outside after she stormed off from the castle.

[01:27:45.810] - Chels

That's so relatable. She's like, I need some air. They're so cute together.

[01:27:56.100] - Emma

They're so cute. It's, if any, if you take out anything from this away, it's like, like I said in the intro, it's like, it is simultaneously one of the, like, the cutest romances I've ever read. It's incredibly harrowing. It's very sad. I cried multiple times. But it's also so cute. It's like there's so many cute little moments. I highlighted a ton because they're just so adorable. So, okay, any last thoughts on Raine and Ariana and Taliesin?

[01:28:20.870] - Chels

Wait, what happened to Taliesin? He just disappears.

[01:28:22.900] - Emma

He disappears and then he comes back in the epilogue

[01:28:25.030] - Chels

Oh, I forgot.

[01:28:26.470] - Emma

Yeah. What does he do in the epilogue? He finds their, like, great, great granddaughter and he's like, oh, I got another one.

[01:28:31.900] - Chels

Oh, wait, wait, wait. Okay, okay. Yeah, still up to his tricks.

[01:28:35.590] - Emma

He's like, oh, this one's gonna be a doozy again.

[01:28:39.170] - Chels

Oh, my God.

[01:28:39.810] - Emma

So I guess he's continuing to watch over the, I don't know what their family name is, but this family in Wales.

[01:28:47.310] - Emma

Well, thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. If you enjoy the podcast, you can find bonus episodes, recommendations and more on our patreon at patreon.com/reformedrakes. Please rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps a lot. You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram for show updates. The username for both is @reformed rakes. Thank you again. We'll see you next time.