Honeytrap

Show Notes

Honeytrap is a Soviet/American spy romance set in 1959 between Daniel Hawthorne and Gennady Matskevich. Daniel and Gennady are charged with finding who is behind the attempted assassination of Nikita Khrushchev during his 12-day trip to America. As the bullet only hits the side of a train, the attempt is not well-known. What then ensues is basically an American roadtrip as Daniel and Gennady piece together clues. Unknown to Daniel, Gennady’s boss instructs him to try and “honeytrap” him—essentially seducing Daniel for information or blackmail purposes.

Books Referenced

The Spy Who Came in From the Cold by John le Carré

Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy by John le Carré

Ilf and Petrov's American Road Trip: The 1935 Travelogue of Two Soviet Writers by Ilya Ilf &Yevgeny Petrov

The Sleeping Soldier by Aster Glenn Gray

Transcript

[00:00:00.210] - Beth

Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that would talk shit about Khrushchev to even out how much blackmail we have on each other. My name is Beth, and I'm a grad student, and I write at the Substack Ministrations.

[00:00:12.490] - Emma

I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the Substack Restorative Romance.

[00:00:17.000] - Beth

Honey Trap is a Soviet-American spy romance set in 1959 between Daniel Hawthorn and Gennady Metzgevich. Daniel and Gennady are charged with finding who is behind the attempted assassination of Nikita Khrushchev during his twelve-day trip to America. As the bullet only hits the side of the train, the attempt is not well known. What then ensues is basically an American road trip as Daniel and Gennady piece together clues. Unknown to Daniel, Gennady's boss instructs him to try and honey trap him, essentially seduce Daniel for information or blackmail purposes. In her historical note, Aster Glenn-Gray says, I would be remiss not to begin this note with a shout out to Man from Uncle, the classic TV show about a Soviet and American spy who worked together at an international counterintelligence agency. I always wish this show would dig deeper into the culture clash between Ilia and Napoleon, and this book is the result. I think that what if thought fleshes out much of the book. What are the culture clashes? What are the ideological differences? What do they admire in each other? This book takes place in three distinct periods in Soviet-American relations queer culture. So the stakes of Daniel and Gennady's relationship shift each time they meet.

[00:01:37.060] - Beth

What it means for two men to sleep together and fall in love on opposite sides of the Iron curtain changes between their first mission together and subsequent meetings. I think this is our first Just You and Me, on the main- Yeah, reviving. On the main... On Patreon, we do bonus episodes together. Yeah.

[00:02:02.630] - Emma

Though I do think... Chels has read this book and loves this book, so this is a Chels endorsement, even though they're not with us today.

[00:02:07.850] - Beth

I need to come up with an excuse, but I haven't pulled any. We did the Dukes last time. They're writing a book.

[00:02:14.160] - Emma

I feel like Chels They're writing a book. They're on a road trip.

[00:02:18.410] - Beth

Yeah, with the Soviet spy, actually.

[00:02:20.400] - Emma

With the Soviet spy. Working on their book. Yeah, so it's just me and Beth today. But I loved this book, and That, I think, is a big endorsement. I was telling Beth before how hard... I mean, listeners of the podcast know. It is hard to get me to read a book in the 20th century.

[00:02:37.720] - Beth

In America.

[00:02:38.780] - Emma

In America, much less. But it comes highly endorsed by our friend Mel, friend of the podcast. This is Mel canon of books. I put this up there with... This and Will Darling, which they were two sides of the same coin, Will Darling. I think if you like the Will Darling books, you will like this book because it's espionage and working together. It's not quite enemy to lovers, which I liked. I think I expected more cantankerous interactions earlier, but they become a collaborative very quickly, which I appreciated.

[00:03:13.900] - Beth

Yeah, I feel like there is a lot of conflict you can still get from two characters who desperately want to make it work and like each other, but ideologically. And just by the sheer fact that they grew up in different cultures, you have a lot of, well, I see it this way, and you see it that way, and it's hard to reconcile these two things. And then also, I think the fact that they forget that their enemies is another big conflict. Not enemies-enemies, but they both have differing missions where they're trying to spy for their respective countries, which is fraught.

[00:03:49.380] - Emma

I think sometimes that's something that's lost in 21st century understandings of the Cold War, depictions of it, is that... During the plot of this book, Khrushchev comes to America. So it's like this is not... It's not totally cut off in a way that I think people sometimes re-imagine it is. They're different levels. This is pre Bay of Pigs. We're not quite in the most Most fraught part of the Cold War. The most frott part of the Cold War. And when they meet, it's during times when they could have met. And I think it also makes sense that these two characters both get put on the mission by their bosses because they have an interest in each other's culture. Like Daniel grew up having Russian neighbors, so he speaks a little bit of Russian. And Kennedy has expressed interest in America. And so he's put on this mission in part because it's like he's willing to do this trip in a way that maybe other agents aren't. And so it's, again, it's not just like, they're not forced into this situation by their bosses. They're both willing to go along with it and are expecting to get a lot out of it, which is nice, and they're dynamic.

[00:04:56.770] - Beth

Yeah. And I admire an author who who writes what they want to write, which seems maybe... I guess what I mean by that is I don't have a lot of other books that are like this. We have some mid-century, there's not a lot of mid-century. There's not a lot of mid-century. I feel like Esther Glenn-Gray is interested in a clash of cultures. She has another book called The Sleeping soldier. And literally a Union soldier sleeps for a century and wakes up in 1965 and then meets a student student from the '60s. So it just ups the stakes on the culture clash there because it's also literally someone from a different time period.

[00:05:39.790] - Emma

Yeah, I think that works so well. The amount of research put into this. Her author's note is the amount of sources that she cites. It's up there with Beverly Jenkins as far as the secondary sources that she's giving us. You can read so much that she's read. I guess maybe I also expected the Russian character to be a little bit more cartoony. I don't know what I was getting into, but it's obviously that Esther Glenn gray thought about this a lot. For every American point of reference that she gives Daniel, Kennedy has similar, fleshed-out references for himself and a completed worldview. So it's definitely an equal culture depiction, which I appreciate.

[00:06:23.500] - Beth

I love that we have Jenkins as the standard. We're like, Oh, she hit the Jenkins’ level.

[00:06:27.520] - Emma

Everyone should be reaching there. If you're writing a historical, that's what I want. Okay.

[00:06:32.650] - Beth

Well, we'll dive into the plot summary, and then we will circle back to our discussion.

[00:06:40.200] - Speaker 3

Daniel works for the FBI. We open on Mr. Gillman, Daniel's boss, telling him he's being reassigned because of Daniel's romantic relationship with his previous FBI partner. It's natural, Mr. Gillman said. Well, not natural, exactly, but certainly not unusual for two young men thrown constantly into one another's company, facing peril together, perhaps saving each other's lives to become attached to each other. The new assignment involves investigating an assassination attempt on Nikita Khrushchev, which happened in the town of Honeygold, Iowa, during his twelve-day visit to America. It's not well known. The bullet only hit the side of a train. By the time they realized what had happened, the shooter had long gone. The initial investigation turned up several clues, including a Mauser pistol and a magazine called The Good Shepherd. The magazine's limited circulation means Daniel can investigate from the subscriber list. As the Soviets are understandably upset about this assassination attempt, they wish to dispatch their own agent who will work with Daniel. Another reason Mr. Gomen picks Daniel is because he learned Russian from his neighbors as a child, and that information isn't generally well known. Daniel and his new partner, Gennady Matzkevich head to Des Moines to meet with Mack, the officer who runs the field office.

[00:08:05.750] - Speaker 3

While they're there, Daniel suggests that he and Gennady should go to a strip club. Gennady sees this as an attempt for Daniel to gather blackmail on him. They start investigating, and their cover is that their posters gaging how Khrushchev's visit affected American views of communism. They make it to that town of Honey Gold and start speaking with people there. In Gennady's point of view, we learn that he works for the GRU, which is the Foreign Military Intelligence, as opposed to the KGB. And there are a few different players within the GRU that Gennady has to contend with. First off, there's his shitty boss Archady. He's upset that another agent, Pavlovitch, from another department, tells Gennady, if he's successful in finding the assassin, then Gennady will have a place in Pavlovitch's Department. Arkady says is Pavlovitch is trying to undermine him. He says this to Gennady. Well, fuck him. I'll turn this to my advantage. How do you trap the American agent for me, Gennady? Gennady has this belief that if anyone gets drunk enough, they will fool around. So two men would fool around if they were drunk enough. He doesn't consider himself queer. This is also how Arcadi pitches the idea to him after Gennadi says a woman would be a better fit to Honey Trap Daniel.

[00:09:28.960] - Speaker 3

As Daniel and and Gennady gather clues together and work the case, they have conversations about their different belief systems. For example, Daniel and Gennady talk about previous girlfriends. Gennady says his girlfriend has probably moved on in that, quote, All this waiting around for people is a waste of time. We're all basically replaceable people. After all, she should find someone close by. Daniel mentions how he broke up with his girlfriend because he was gone so often. Ah, said Gennady, triumphant. And Daniel hit him with a pillow. That doesn't mean people are replaceable, Daniel said. It's just that Janet and I weren't really in love, that's all. Do you believe such a love exists? Daniel looked at him strangely. That's what love is, the will to be together despite obstacles. Gennady shook his head. Bourgeois romanticism. How would you define love then? A pretty word for the sexual instinct, a way to deflect the masses attention from the misery of their lives by feeding them heightened emotions and focusing their hopes of future happiness on sexual pleasure. Daniel laughed. What? Why is that funny? You sound like the movie parody of a Communist. Gennady He sat up, furious, Well, you sound like a typical brainwashed capitalist.

[00:10:48.980] - Speaker 3

How can you believe in love at your age? And then Gennady further adds, I have noticed that Americans are obsessed with the idea of a Communist brainwashing, but I think the obsession question is because you know in your hearts that your own Hollywood is brainwashing you. How else can you believe that love is all you need for happiness? They spend several months working the case, and eventually, the investigation stalls out. By the beginning of December, they find the last Iowa subscriber to the Good Shepherd. They argue more about whose country is worse, although Daniel lands on the fact that at least he can say America is terrible. Gennady concedes he would defend Khrushchev if Daniel slandered They make it to the Bluegill Motel somewhere in Minnesota right before a storm hits. It has one room and one bed left. The power goes out at some point during the night. Daniel realizes Gennady is rubbing his stomach, which he pushes away but keeps Gennadi's arm around him with the disclaimer that it's warmer this way. Daniel brushes off Gennadi's actions because he perceives the Russians to be more touchy feely, based on pictures he'd seen Soviet soldiers kissing American GIs on their lips after World War II.

[00:12:04.700] - Speaker 3

Daniel invites Gennadi to his house for Christmas. To Gennadi, Daniel's middle class home looks like a palace since he grew up in a home that only had two rooms, and he slept under the kitchen table as a child. Gennadi knows not everyone in America lives like Daniel, as they've seen all kinds of living situations in their travels. Daniel's mother tells Gennadi about the Russian neighbors and how they taught Daniel Russian. Gennadi says to Daniel, Well, so I should have guessed you'd speak Russian. Were they hoping I'd talk in my sleep? Gennadi shows them a Russian toast and kisses Mrs. Hathorn out in the cheek, saying it's the kiss of Brotherhood. Gennadi then shows Daniel the toast and does the kiss. When Daniel won't return it, Gennadi says, You too, unless you want to be drinking enemies. Daniel complies and kisses him on the cheek. They get back on the road again after Christmas and come up with more dead ends. Gennadi's new goal is to waste as much time and money as possible, anything to keep him away from Mercadi. Daniel acknowledges to himself that he might die the horrible combination of professional boredom and requited love.

[00:13:17.030] - Speaker 3

In the middle of March, they get a breakthrough in the case. A police officer found a stolen Mouser in the glove compartment of a congressman's son's car. They head back to Des Moines to speak with the police officer. The congressman's son's height, chain smoking, and demeanor make him a good suspect. His name is Peter Abbott, and they go to his college and discover that he's been failing classes. They also discover he skipped class the day of the attempted assassination. After they eat, they find copies of the Good Shepherd sitting in a welter of magazines. Since Peter wasn't a subscriber, they can now account for how he got the magazine. The next day, they station themselves themselves outside of Peter's classes. Gennady waits at the bottom of the stairs, and when Peter shows and Gennady says Peter's name, Peter believes Gennady to be a KGB assassin. Gennady plays up his accent and Peter shouts, I didn't kill him. I didn't even hit the train car. Peter tries to run, which Gennadi blocks, and then Peter stabs him. Peter runs away, and Daniel prioritizes saving Gennadi over chasing Peter. Later in the field office with Mac, he berates Daniel, saying what trouble it be if a Soviet agent died on American soil.

[00:14:33.520] - Speaker 3

Gennadi refuses to go to the hospital, and Daniel takes Gennadi back to their motel where he cleans and dresses the wound. Daniel cares for him while he heals. They head to a department store to get Gennadi a new suit, since his old one is bloody and had his stab wound in it. But this is something that Gennadi sees as an indulgence. Daniel thinks back to how Khrushchev declined to wear formal evening wear when meeting Eisenhower stuck with a suit with his military metals pinned to it. Gennady says he feels ridiculous, and Daniel reassures him that he looks good. Gennady looks into Daniel's eyes and has a desire to kiss him when he spots Peter Abbott standing the next aisle over. They arrest him. That night, Gennady and Daniel get drunk in celebration. Daniel kisses Gennady, who returns it. Reality hits Gennady in this moment, that Daniel is FBI, and maybe Daniel received similar instructions to honey trap him. He calls Daniel an idiot, and Daniel apologizes. Gennadi berates him and tells Daniel that part of his mission is to honey trap him. Daniel asks if Gennadi will blackmail him, to which Gennadi says no. They find a hotel, and Gennadi tells Daniel to sleep it off.

[00:15:50.080] - Speaker 3

The next morning, Daniel still remembers everything and is a little horrified. They drive back to DC, and in the car, Gennadi says, You know, I've He admires some of the things that Khrushchev has done: stopping Beria after Stalin died, the secret speech, his trip to America. But at the end of the day, really, he's been an ineffective fool. Daniel responds that it's one of the bravest and kindest things anyone has ever done for him since they now have blackmail on each other. Daniel meets with his boss, Mr. Gillman. He asks Daniel about the case and praises Daniel's work and then asks how he got along with Gennadi. He says they got along well and that Gennadi liked America. Daniel asks Gillman why he gave him another assignment after discovering his relationship with his former FBI partner, Paul. Gillman says he's a good agent and that when he was in France working during the war, he had a very dear friend, implying he had a relationship with an MI6 officer. Gilman adds that MI6 is like that. He then asks if Daniel thinks Gennadi would defect, which Daniel replies no. Gilman asks him to try anyway.

[00:17:01.350] - Speaker 3

Across town in DC, Gennadi reports to his boss, Pavlovitch. He tells Gennadi he did good work, and Gennadi equates this to a 21 gun salute. Later on his own, Gennadi thinks he could have kissed Daniel more and simply lie to Arcady about it. Later, he meets with Arcady, who asks if he successfully honey trapped the American agent. Gennadi said he tried, but even when Daniel was drunk, he was repulsed by Gennadi's attempts to touch him. Arcady gets angry with Gennadi. Who replies, You said it would be better if I were prettier, Gennadi protested. Or maybe he just likes them younger, like you do. Arcady punches him in Gennadi's knife wound. Arcady tells Gennadi to take off his shirt. He protests that lots of people don't like being caught at by their colleagues. Arkadi hits him again. On the floor, Gennadi expects the worst. Yet when he opens his eyes, he seesarkadi across the room, almost hanging out the open window. Gennadi runs. At the bar the next day, Gennadi explains away his black eye to Daniel, saying he got mugged. Gennadi gets drunk and shit talks America's late involvement in World War II, and Daniel takes him to the car before a fight breaks out.

[00:18:16.180] - Speaker 3

They go to a motel. Gennadi relays what really happened with Al Qadi, and Daniel holds him while he cries. They talk about how Daniel is bisexual and not homosexual, and about Gennadi's mission to honey trap Daniel. Daniel asks, 'Ganadi, what about you? ' Ganadi blinked at him. He looked genuinely confused. What about me? ' 'Well, they didn't choose you because you're straight as an arrow, did they? ' Ganadi initially brushes off this characterization, saying, 'Sometimes he had fooled around with men when he was drunk. ' Daniel says his frat brothers regularly got plastered and didn't fool around with other guys. This conversation helps Ganadi recontextualize his experiences. While they plan to keep traveling. The news of a downed American plane over Russia means Gennady needs to head back home. His train leaves the next morning at 6: 15. They have sex as a a farewell. Gennady thinks of it as one of the excesses he can enjoy in America. Daniel takes him to the train station the next morning. Gennady asks for an address where he can write to Daniel, one that won't change for a long time. They know contact between them would be a bad idea.

[00:19:28.460] - Speaker 3

They tell each other goodbye, and Gennady gets on the train. Part Two, 1975. Daniel opens a letter from Gennady. He's been moved to DC for a two-year assignment. It's been 15 years since they've seen each other and six years since Daniel has received a letter from him. They had some communication when Gennady had been stationed in Zurich. Gennady has since gotten married, and Daniel has two kids with his wife, Elizabeth. Daniel and Elizabeth have an open marriage, so she urges Daniel to still see Gennadi. They have lunch together, and the spark is still there. Daniel invites Gennadi to his home for dinner with Elizabeth. We learned Gennadi's own marriage is on the rocks, and his wife told him she wouldn't wait for him to get back, and the feeling of divorce is imminent. Dinner goes well with Elizabeth practically shoeing them out the door to their cabin so they can have some alone time. They have sex and strike up a relationship again. They limit their visits to the cabin so they don't draw attention from their respective government agencies. Daniel runs into one of his old frat brothers, John. John is the reason why Daniel leaves college and signs up to go to the Korean War.

[00:20:45.360] - Speaker 3

John initiated a kiss with Daniel, and when he kissed him back, John punches Daniel in the face, and he's so terrified that he will be outed. That's why he signs up for the Korean War. Now, though, in 1975, John wants to apologize. They meet for a beer. He tells them about how he's now an art professor and that he has a boyfriend. The relationship between Gennadi and Daniel deepens. They enjoy spring together. In May, Daniel gets a letter from Paul, his former lover and FBI partner. The Soviets have compromising photos of Paul, and Paul dies by suicide rather than being manipulated by blackmail. In the letter, he says he rather die than betray his country. Daniel asks Gennadi if he told the Soviets 15 years ago about Paul, to which Gennadi says yes. Say something, Daniel said, abruptly. I'm a Soviet agent, Gennadi said. You've always known this. Gennady adds he never told the Soviets about Daniel, and Daniel tells him to get out. Four months pass. Mr. Gillman asks to speak with Daniel so he can figure out what he knows about Paul's death. Mr. Gilman shows Daniel the blackmail photos of Paul. Mr. Gilman adds that Paul should have gotten married to protect himself.

[00:22:09.180] - Speaker 3

He and Daniel argue about this, and Mr. Gillman says Daniel should go on administrative leave for six months, and instead, Daniel quits. Daniel meets up with Gennadi a month later. They reconcile. Gennadi brings up how he always insisted they couldn't be friends. I was the one who understood it couldn't work, Gennadi said. So I should have acted to keep more distance between us, but... He shrugged. Well, it was a beautiful dream, wasn't it? The power of friendship bridges East and West, capitalist and Communist, over powers even the power of the state. Love is stronger than fear. When you want something to be true, it's hard to believe that it isn't. They say goodbye to each other again. Part 3, 1992. Gennady and Daniel are talking in Daniel's apartment. Gennadi has quit the GRU. Gennadi says he wants to see the sights of New York City, and Daniel offers to act as his guide. Daniel and Elizabeth have divorced after she fell in love with an artist, although they parted amically. Possibly. Gennadi takes a solo trip to see Paul's grave. As the USSR has fallen, they talk about Daniel visiting Russia with Gennadi. They kiss, and Gennadi talks about introducing Daniel to his family.

[00:23:31.620] - Beth

So I think we're always interested in how literature is talked about in the books that we read in Honeytrap. I say there's this isolated scene, but there is talk of literature throughout the entire book. One time they're talking about love, and Daniel's like, Love that doesn't alter with alteration, find Shakespeare, blah, blah, blah. Like, literally, something he phrases it like that.

[00:23:57.700] - Emma

There was very literary people.

[00:23:59.620] - Beth

Yeah. When they're in the bookstore, Gennady is picking up books that he's seeing as gifts. He's like, Oh, if I bring home this Hemingway that hasn't been translated yet, I'll be a conquering hero. So Gennady recommends the brothers Kerem Mazow to Daniel, and then Daniel counter-recommends East of Eden because of Steinbeck's critiques of capitalism. Gennady thinks, In truth, he had not really cared for Steinbeck. His Capitalism, felt too familiar, not as deliciously foreign as other American books. But it did not seem quite right to say that really he didn't care if Daniel gave him capitalist propaganda, as long as it was new and interesting. I feel like this also is in line with how Gennady sees America. He is very interested in it. I don't know how to phrase it. He doesn't love it, but if he feels anthropological about it, He likes the excess, like how big Daniel's house is. And he knows that's not typical in America, but he's just like, wow, this is so different. I don't know.

[00:25:10.810] - Emma

Right. I think from the jump, everyone is very... Because Mimun The book takes place entirely in America. So I think Daniel and Getty are both aware that they're both showing and getting an isolated view of America. Like, Daniel's boss talks to him about, Don't take him below the Mason-Dixon line. We don't want to give them more propaganda. But then also they're not aware that basically, Kennedy is going to come to America with every perception. Everything that he's going to take in is going to be through this lens. You can't get this non-capitalist view of America, even if they stay in the Midwest I like the idea of you're like, Oh, I want something that sounds American. I want something that sounds my vision of America. I know that Steinbeck will be more in line with my own politics, but he wants something that's... I guess the connection between the boss saying, Don't give him more ammunition of what America's like. But then, Générdil, that's what he wants. He wants cartoon America. He has this nostalgia for the road trip novel that he's read with the friends, and it's these painted pictures of what America is like.

[00:26:17.160] - Emma

He's very invested in getting that. And he's like, I know that there's more to it, but that's not what I want my experience to be on this shortened trip that I am going to have. I also thought the references were really smart, and it almost told me on reading more 20th century books, in part because what I got out of them as a reader. And we complain about the Regency references that is one of Beth's big soapboxes is how often Jane Austen gets referenced in Regency books because the period in which Jane Austen is popular and who's actually reading her is so narrow compared to other authors that maybe we don't read anymore. But also I get that there's tension when you're writing a book as a historical author, that the reference has to be something that your reader will get something out of as well. And so if you're referencing Maria Edgeworth or Fannie Bernie, Frances Bernie, that you're risking the idea that you're alienating a reader who doesn't know who those people are. I would be on the side of make those references and they can go look them up. But I understand that there's tension with that author.

[00:27:16.370] - Emma

But being a 21st century reader, reading a 20th century of a book set in the 20th century, I liked that it's all of these references, or the majority of the ones that Daniel's making, at least, I got. And I was like, oh, I see how this enriches the novel in a way that we miss in the Regency, even when I understand the reference. It's like, I didn't grow up reading those in school. It's like all the little references meant so much more. I love the mention of Hemingway. And it's like, Oh, yeah, you could think like, Oh, yeah, of course, it makes sense that the Russians love Hemingway. Hemingway, because he's got these short stoic sentences, and he has the Cuban connection. It's like Hemingway has this interest in revolutionary politics, like going to Spain. Another reference that I loved is that Daniel feels this anxiety about how he's is going to use Walt Whitman in his relationships. He receives them, a publication of Walt Whitman's poems from Paul, his first lover. And he also thinks about giving them to Gannerdie. And it's like, Walt Whitman is this author who's so associated with America, but also with queer culture and queer men.

[00:28:18.960] - Emma

And so there's codes in, does he give or reference the Walt Women poems about America, or does he reference the ones that are about queer relationships? And all that subtlety is available to to Esther Glenn gray because she's writing in a period that her readers are probably a little bit more familiar with.

[00:28:37.890] - Beth

Yeah, I was thinking what you said about, yeah, you could reference Francis Bernie or something, and people might not know authors from the 19th or 18th centuries as well. But I feel like the strength of a book, not that I'm pro-info-dumping, is you could just have a little reference or just in text, someone could get what is the meaning? Or do have two characters discuss the book, I don't have to read the book to follow the conversation.

[00:29:05.210] - Emma

Yeah, I guess that's always reconstructed. And even an author who's an expert on the 18th or 19th century, it's like you're guessing, you don't have that first-hand experience. What is it like to read Waltz Women when you're a queer man or a queer person in America? It's always going to be a little bit removed. And I still think there's value in doing that. But I think just because I read so much historical that is not in the 20th century, reading something so much closer to my own lifespan, this was very jarring in a good way, the availableness of the references. I think at one point, they referenced movies, and it's like, That never happens in any books that I read.

[00:29:42.170] - Beth

This is true. What's interesting about that is, you said, easily, I think, Gennady could have been a bit of a caricature. And he calls out Daniel. He's like, You think we're all brainwashed and that we're all the same, but you are brainwashed. Have you looked at your Hollywood, your conceptions? You guys also get tons of propaganda as well. So there is push and pull that way. But yeah, you're right. We don't get movie references Right.

[00:30:15.690] - Emma

Yeah, in our recency books. Often on this podcast. Yeah. I think Glenn gray pulls off the tension. And it's a book that's about politics, but it's not overtly... She doesn't land on either side, which I... I mean, I don't know. Just because I knew Mel liked this book, I was like, this book is not going to come out like pro-capitalism. But I think it's really just about these people, which I was surprised at how much context was given when it really... The center really is the romance, even though there's this plot. Because I think I'm also skeptical of romances that are hybrids, that are romance and mystery or romance and fantasy, because I'm like, okay, how much are we going to have to do with the other plot It's like the whole thing is a red herring for just to get these guys in hotel rooms together, which I appreciate it because I'm much more interested in the romance than I am, who tried to kill Khrushchev. I don't think the book really cares either.

[00:31:13.460] - Beth

Yeah. And it's Probably because the characters at a certain point don't care either. They're just enjoying their road trip so much. They're like, I guess we'll never catch this guy.

[00:31:23.390] - Emma

She has a job of inventing this mission that very clearly is a PR mission. Like, Khrushchev was never really in danger. It's like, this could have been an international incident, but it wasn't. That's the whole point everyone's making is like, It's fine. He's going back to Russia. We can't tell anybody about it because that would cause a problem. It's going to be this thing that's very quiet and kept quiet forever. It just works in the universe so well, why we don't really care about the mystery that's the precipitating event for this couple getting together.

[00:31:56.480] - Beth

In line with the literature talk, Much of this book is a road trip. Glenn gray references the Travelog. I think this is a direct translation of the title, and maybe not the American title, but it's called One-Storied America by Ilf and Petrov, and that was published in 1937, and that, I think, was part of the inspiration for this book. It's written in this humorous style. The authors took pictures, and they praised some of America's achievements, and then they denounced its treatment of Black and Indigenous people and their oppression of workers that they saw. So referencing back to that historical note at the end of the book, Ilfen Petrov are sometimes admiring, sometimes condemnatory, occasionally arch, and always funny. Gennady's sense of humor owes a lot to Ilfen Petrov. See, for instance, their complaint about American movies. And this is quoting from Elfen Petrov now. The plot is always the same. Love, uninteresting, monotonous American love strictly timed cases. I think this inspiration is interesting. It goes to what we're talking about. They're just not interested in the main mission. We, too, sometimes get road trips and historicals and your wall paper type stories, but this one feels much more grounded.

[00:33:18.890] - Beth

Also because I think they are driving at the end of the book in 1995. And I think Gennady has this thought, how much the highway system had changed from their original trip in 1959.

[00:33:32.730] - Emma

Yes, I thought about the two. Again, I appreciated that this was a multi-time book because it's like, yeah, Glenn gray is tapping into so many things that are changing very rapidly, both queer culture, Soviet-American relations, and then also the interstate system. And it just seems so smart. It's like, of course, we need to have time jumps in order to show this progression. But I was also thinking about the road trip thing where I love a romance, a wallpaper road trip romance. But I was thinking about how this feels so much more casual because I was thinking, in Regency road trips, people are often under duress. They're going to Gretna Green or they're chasing after somebody and it's like, Oh, we're in a road trip. We're in a carriage.

[00:34:13.210] - Beth

So that's about kidnapped. They got to go get that person. Right.

[00:34:15.390] - Emma

And this is so much more like a hangout, which I think you associate with road trip movies. That you're in a car for a long time. There are these long scenes, you're staying in a hotels. That hangout movie from the '60s and '70s. That quality of a road trip, I can't think of when you would get that in a regency, in part because you can't justify a man and a woman in a straight regency being together for that long. Whereas this, they have this cover for their mission. It's just so casual in their hangouts, which I loved. They're going to all these different connections. Again, it felt so novel to me, again, because it just is not available in the genre that I mostly read.

[00:34:59.710] - Beth

I I also like how, and we talked about this before recording. So we have Gennedy's boss, Arcady, and then he's trying to make the jump to a different team with Pavlovitch, who is the one who assigns him this mission. So he's sending reports to Pavlovitch. And Pavlovitch makes this comment of, your report's read like Ilf and Petrov, that same style. So I just love that little detail, because I feel like if that is... I'm sure at the time, and just as it is now, everyone has different understandings of other countries and culture and what materials are available to them that they can understand that culture. And so the fact that even his boss is like, it felt like this road trip. Yeah.

[00:35:48.890] - Emma

And I think that's a great feature of any outsider story is when someone has had a guidebook of this is what it's going to be like. And I think that's... Tourism in books is so interesting. You're like, what does it mean to be an outsider? What does it mean to go somewhere that you're spending time somewhere where it's not your culture, but also you're not immigrating. It's a distinct experience. I think the guidebook aspect of it and the fact that the guidebook is pre-World War II, this post-Soviet, pre-conflict between the United States and Russia, where it's like... I keep calling them the boys because in my mind, they're like, My boys. I love these guys. They talk a little bit about World War II in Korea as far wars that define the Soviet-American relations. But that Kennedy has this point of reference of these guys who just came to America, and it was easy for them. Not probably easy, but it was pre-Iron curtain. The conflict between the nations is more minimal, and he has this nostalgia available to him, I think is important. Again, because we're seeing that this is not... It doesn't just change one day, the relationships between these countries.

[00:36:57.560] - Emma

And I think that's important, again, because of the way that we revisit visit the time periods and we see how hard it is eventually for Getty to come to America or to even speak to Daniel. When he leaves the first time, he's like, We can't write. That's not an option.

[00:37:13.760] - Beth

Yeah. He gets his parents' address and he's like, Maybe I might be able to get a letter to you. And it's like, in that span, there's only a few letters that he gets from Getty from 1959 to 1975.

[00:37:26.640] - Emma

Yeah, and it's like when he's able to go to Zurich and leave leave Russia. So it's like he's leaving the shutdown of communication. But yeah, they're still reading these Russian guys who went to America and have that nostalgia for a period. It was never available to them.

[00:37:44.650] - Beth

I guess I wanted to talk a little bit about the Happily Ever After. I would say this book is interesting because we are jumping to different times. I feel like there's this thought, when do you end a book? And is it happy at that point. I guess I think about this a lot because I think on the podcast, we're pretty expansive with how we feel what should be an HEA and what should be considered a romance novel. And this has come up when we've talked about World War I romances because World War II is coming down the pipe. So it's something similar with this book, where even though we're jumping through time, we know what is going to be changing or happening. And so that we end in 1995, which feels like a more optimistic place to end. But I wanted to read this one section from the book that I think is just interesting, because often I think we always phrase progress as we're always moving up, where I don't think this book would frame it that way. I feel like I should frame what is happening in this scene. It's at the end of the book, and Daniel has again suggested that Genetti defect to America.

[00:39:09.650] - Beth

So Genetti speaking. Perhaps it is different in your country, Genetti mused. There's a tradition of ordinary people winning rights for themselves, civil rights and women's liberation. In my country, there's a tradition of people sticking their heads up and getting them cut off. Daniel winced. Even if the party decided to reform after all, this This will only last until the next wave of hardliners take over. Then it will be taken away. Doesn't that bother you? Gennady shrugged. There's nothing I can do about it. Daniel rolled over on his stomach, too. You could defect, he said. This again, Gennady said, No, I couldn't do this. If one person leaves, the rest of the family suffers for it. They've all suffered enough already. Anyway, that's not doing anything about Nothing will change for anyone else if I defect, not for the better anyway. I guess I just find this so interesting. It's not defined by one feeling. He is hedging. He's like, Yeah, it could be good, but then the hardliners will come in and roll back some of the progress we've made. But if I leave, I'm not helping anyone. I don't know. I just think this is a good complex feeling and conversation that they're having.

[00:40:33.300] - Emma

I think also, so this is in the 1975 section, right? I mean, he's talking about the conservative, or not the conservative, but he's talking about the progressive reforms in the United States, like civil rights and all that. But then that's also a period when... I mean, America is entering a conservative backlash to civil rights. So it's like, we are also on the cost of that in the United States. Daniel becomes a swinger in the '70s, and it's like he becomes... He's so much more progressive-minded than he is in 1959. But there will be backlash to that in some ways. But then also, I think, Gennedy would not look at the United States and think, Oh, for all their civil rights, it's a perfect country. He sees the excess of Daniel's family. Every time he's in a house, he thinks about how big it is. The fact that Daniel has a country home in the 1970s, he's like, That's wild. You have a Dasha. These things are available to people. But also, of course, they're available to some people in the United States, and Gennedy's implication is like, but they're not available to everyone. And I know that.

[00:41:35.710] - Emma

I don't know where I'm going with this.

[00:41:37.210] - Beth

I feel like that, again, speaks to the clash of ideologies. I think Gennedy is much more like, but what about everyone else more than Daniel would be. And even though, again, as a reader, it's 1975. Gorbachev is coming, early '80s. Sorry, I'm pulling back on high school history. The policy of glass-nosed and openness is coming, and homosexuality, I think, is decriminalized in 1993 in Russia. But again, conservative backlash, Putin has made it illegal, in our current year, 2025, or maybe it was last year, but made it illegal to push, quote, gay propaganda. So, yeah, I think this is just very true to life. And I just love that it was acknowledged that there is this cycle of progress and conservative backlash.

[00:42:32.310] - Emma

And I guess the homosexuality thing, it's like 1993, that year is not that different than the United States or Britain's decriminalization of homosexuality. So it's very easy to look at... From a place that... I think Daniel says, Yeah, he's a middle class person, White in the United States. He maybe would not be subject to those laws or be worried about them, but he's also living in a country where homosexuality is criminalized or So as far as the AGA goes, I think, like what we're talking about where Astrid Glen gray is so good at the red herring of it all. I think you get so invested in this couple together that it's like... I think there are books where at the end of it, I think like, what happens to this couple or what's going on? And you're like, oh, but the good romance author makes you buy that couple. It's like, no matter what happens, this couple is going to work. And it's like, we've seen them through these massive tribulations and keep finding their way back to each other. And we talk about this a lot. We're like, people complain about a third act breakup.

[00:43:37.550] - Emma

They complain about miscommunication. But you buy the happy ever after more if a relationship has been tested. Because they got through all those things. Right. They got through all the things. And it's like, Yeah, Daniel and Gennifer will find each other, or we'll stick together and we'll keep thinking about each other and keep making decisions in order to be together. You just believe that.

[00:43:57.200] - Beth

Yeah. I feel like there's this tension in romance where it's like, I feel like the setting should be informing how the couple interacts with each other. But at a certain point, the couple is able to live within the world that they're in, and they're happy in that, like what they found together. I hope that makes sense. Yeah. Because like I said, there's still bad stuff coming, even in the '90s in America.

[00:44:25.580] - Emma

Right. I mean, I think it's like that's true for every period, just sometimes the author acknowledges it, and sometimes they don't. This happens in the Regency, too. I was thinking about the Owl's Cold breath books, where you know it's the early Victorian period, and you know that train travel is coming to change the economics of the couple. And you're like, okay, some authors wouldn't acknowledge that. We don't know how this couple is going to make money in a couple of years, but it's there. And if you place them in a setting, you have to believe that they will continue going on. And I like that so much more than authors who act like their universes or self-contained worlds. One of the things that annoys- Yeah, the couple is isolated from the rest of the world in a way.

[00:45:11.140] - Beth

Like your aristocratic couple and they're great house, which is true in a way because their money insulates them from a lot of bad things. But I guess I'm just not as interested in that story.

[00:45:24.410] - Emma

Wait, well, it's like if you said a couple in a big house in the Regency, how many people still occupy those big houses? We know that's not real. Julia Quinn has a lot of annoying quotes, and this is definitely not her most egregious, but she's talked before about... People will clamor for a Violet prequel romance with her and Edmund. Oh, yeah.

[00:45:44.220] - Beth

She won't do it.

[00:45:44.830] - Emma

She won't do it because he dies.

[00:45:45.690] - Beth

Because he dies, which actually enrages me.

[00:45:48.990] - Emma

We all die.

[00:45:52.170] - Beth

Yeah. Inevitably, we all die. Are you saying that romance is not worth exploring because you... Like someone dies Wait, are you telling me that in your world, in order for a happily verafter to exist, I have to believe that these characters exist in perpetuity?

[00:46:07.660] - Emma

I can't read like that. That's weird. I can't do that.

[00:46:12.130] - Beth

That's the story we should have gotten instead of the Queen Charlotte series. We should have just gotten a Violet prequel.

[00:46:18.690] - Emma

We get so much stuff about her, this relationship that's obviously sounds so much more interesting than any of her children. But she's like, I can't write it. It can't be real because he dies. It's like, okay, we all die.

[00:46:30.940] - Beth

We'll just have to wait till Netflix puts pressure on her, and then hopefully that will get that story. Okay, I wanted to talk a little bit about the characters. My one thought with Gennady was, I felt like he grew more somber throughout the book. In 1959, he's very much tunneling Ilfen Petrov. He's light and flirty, and he's so interested in American culture. 1975, it feels a little bit more just like that life has happened. And then 1995. It's near the end of the book and closer to the happily ever after. But again, just that was the feeling I got from him. What do you think? Yeah.

[00:47:10.930] - Emma

So I think part of this is playing out the politics a little bit. So I was thinking, in 1959, he has the sense that he's learning that Khrushchev is not going to be the savior of the Stalinist regime, which I think it's late enough in Khrushchev that it's like, okay, this is not... Stalin was bad. There were the reasons we don't like Stalin. But Khrushchev is not fixing everything that maybe he was sold as. But then also, like 1975, so this is when Brejnev is in charge and economic stagnation is fully in swing. So this is one of the poorer periods of the Soviet Union. And then Gorbachev is a response to this. So things are less scary, but then we can see his ability to travel and generally less anxiety about things. But at home and personally, politically, he's become very disillusioned with his marriage and also his job and also I think, I don't think he was expecting to get as rocked by Daniel as he did, the idea of falling in love with someone. The first trip, he's basically on room spring, right? He's on spring break.

[00:48:11.230] - Beth

Yeah, yeah.

[00:48:11.900] - Emma

Maybe I honey trap this guy. Maybe I don't. But really, I just want to buy a bunch of hobbies.

[00:48:16.010] - Beth

Do I want to honey trap this guy?

[00:48:17.630] - Emma

He's looking cute. I think Daniel, in part because of his personality and because of the fact that he lives in America, not the Soviet Union, he's able to look back on Getty and Oh, I'm fond of this person. I will always hold a candle for them. I move on with my life. He gets married to a woman that he loves. He has children. He continues his work. He explores himself more. Well, I think Gennebi turns inward, both because maybe his, I think, personality and the political circumstances that he's in. But the candle he's held for Daniel has kept him afloat. I think he's so anxious when he comes back. The fact I think that he's been in America for a couple of days or a couple of weeks when he first reaches out to Daniel when he's back. He's like, I couldn't deal with the fact what this was going to be because I was so scared. I've held this up so much in my mind.

[00:49:13.650] - Beth

Yeah, I think there is a truth to that where you hold a candle for someone and you're like, Have I just built this way up in my mind, beyond what it actually was? And this might also just be a culture thing, too. We reference how Kanadi talks about Hemingway, and how pessimistic he is, and how very Russian that is. And I just feel like in his own personal life, he has some disappointments. You talked disappointments. You talked about Gennady gets married to... Her name is Alaa? I-l-l-a. Yeah. Alaa? Well, I'm excited to learn how I mispronounced so many names after this. But that marriage opens with optimism. She wants to travel. She wants to go with him. That's a pull for them to be in a relationship together. And then they go to Zurich together for that first time, and she hates it. Her German is even better than Gennady's, but she just doesn't like being an outsider. She doesn't want to be outside of Russia. And It's no fault for either of them. It's not like she could have known that until she actually traveled. You know what I mean? So, yeah, I feel like maybe Gennady's life just has had more disappointments up to this, because If you contrast it with Daniel's relationship with Elizabeth, they have an open marriage, and he tells her everything.

[00:50:39.800] - Beth

You get the sense they just are also very good friends on top of their I loved her.

[00:50:45.830] - Emma

Or maybe that's what's it.

[00:50:46.410] - Beth

Yeah, she was great.

[00:50:47.850] - Emma

She reminded me most of the wife character in the baseball romance that you made me read.

[00:50:54.840] - Beth

Oh, yeah. Fire Season.

[00:50:56.120] - Emma

Right. Where it's like we're... Katie Casey. Yeah. We're just on each other's team, go to have sex. I'm rooting for you to go have sex. They're getting divorced in that book. But I think it felt very real. I think this is one of those things I like so much about the book. This is the thing I think we talk about in the podcast a lot, where why can't there be open marriages in a book? We talk about this with cheating. It's like, marriages look a lot of different ways. Why is romance so invested in this singular mode of existing? It's like, this feels so real. I I think this could happen in our regency very easily, where maybe there's a happily ever after where someone is still married at the end to someone else. I think that's okay and probably true to history and also true to lots of marriages that exist now. There are lots of reasons that people don't get divorced or have open marriages and this thing that feels so novel in a book but feels so real in real life, that tension, I felt, happened a lot here. And Elizabeth just was fun.

[00:51:54.650] - Emma

I liked her a lot.

[00:51:56.760] - Beth

Yeah, she seems larger than life. I like what you said. I agree with... Obviously, I agree. Whereas marriage is also an economic partnership. And if people are only interested in maintaining that aspect of their marriage or maybe also friends on top of the economic part. It feels disingenuous to always make it that it has to be love in the marriage. We have so many marriages of convenience. I feel like some of them should stay marriages of convenience and that they find someone they love outside of that in different dynamics you could explore that way.

[00:52:40.720] - Emma

Yeah, and I think Daniel continues to love Kennedy, but I think he also loves Elizabeth. And I think they ultimately get divorced in part because she's fallen in love with someone else. And he's like, oh, I think she's happy to stay married. He's the one who asked her for a divorce.

[00:52:56.730] - Beth

Yeah, I feel like if she falls in love with someone else and they stay together for two years. And she's like, this has been working for us. And I think he's just like... The relationship, I think, had just changed. It wasn't even bad feelings. It was just like, this marriage isn't working for us the way that it used to. So it's probably better if we just in their own different ways. Right. Which I also like. I feel like sometimes people look at relationships that don't exist into perpetuity, like you died together as a failure or something. They had a very successful relationship for a large portion of their life. And then they moved on to... They changed that relationship. I don't want to make it seem like they... I can't imagine they would stop talking. It feels like that doesn't feel like that.

[00:53:39.780] - Emma

Yeah, it's like he still has a relationship with his children. He mentions that in the third part. It just it seems so normal in a way that I just... I think the lack of imagination when it comes to types of relationships. And I think also I was aware of this reading the book because time passes so much, the men are so old when we leave I think there's this sense sometimes in romance that it's like, this is the only interesting part of someone's life, is the part where they're falling in love with the first person, or the first person that they marry. That's the most interesting part of your life. But I think there's this sense of linear time that both of them are aware of, that we're not going to be able to go back and be in a gay relationship together from 1959 to 1995. That is unavailable to us. But that doesn't make the lives that we had during those times when we were not together not worth it or sad, because that's the only one you get. That's the only life that either of them had. It's like, that's how linear time works.

[00:54:39.980] - Emma

And again, it just felt very real in a way. It would be silly for Daniel to mourn marrying Elizabeth, when he's like, he loves his children, he loves his ex-wife. All those things are... That's how life works.

[00:54:52.150] - Beth

Also, I just feel it was very... So in 1995, they're both 60, I think. And I can't remember what happens, but Daniel or Gennady says something to the other, and it makes that person blush. And I think it was Gennady has the thought that he can't believe that he's still blushing at 60, which I just think is so cute and romantic. And They've got the next, hopefully, third of their lives together if they want. This golden era of their lives, they don't probably have to work as much anymore. They could just go on another road trip. Wait. Reelift the glory Days. So we are talking a bit about the side characters. Obviously, we both love Elizabeth. There's a few others that we could touch on. Anna is Daniel's sister. She's in the background, yet we still have a pretty good idea of what her life is like. So to me, it shows changing attitudes towards marriage. In 1959, she's in her shitty marriage to the husband. I can't even remember his name, but he sucks.

[00:55:55.610] - Emma

I don't think he's even in the book. We just hear what he says. We're like, he sucks.

[00:56:00.020] - Beth

Yeah, he just sounds awful. And then in 1975, she's traveling the world with her new husband. She's a photographer, and he's a writer, which I loved. And then we learn about John is Daniel's college frat brother. John kisses Daniel And when Daniel returns the kiss, John punches him. And so this fear of being outed pushes Daniel to enlist in the army, and he fights in the Korean War. We catch up with John in 1975, who apologizes to Daniel. And over a beer, John talks about how he is an art history professor and the faculty sponsor for the University Gay Club. And he even shows a picture of his boyfriend to Daniel. Paul's arc is obviously the saddest. Paul was Daniel's former FBI agent partner. And that's right at the beginning of the book, when Daniel gets transferred to this new mission with Gennady, it's because of that prior relationship with Paul. Paul stays in the FBI. The Soviets gather blackmail on him. They get pictures of him having sex with another man. And so Paul dies by suicide rather than be blackmailed by the Soviets. I guess my measure for well-written side characters or some kinds of characters in a book, is if it feels like they can have their own book.

[00:57:19.950] - Beth

All of those things I just relayed, I feel like that could be its own book. Yes.

[00:57:24.210] - Emma

I would love to read John's book with his boyfriend. Yes. Like homophobic frat brother. Like learns the errors of his ways and repairs them by becoming the sponsor for the University gay club. I love that. We don't get that much detail in all of them. All these people are so periphery, and it's hard to emphasize how periphery they are and how flushed out they are. That union is incredible here.

[00:57:49.180] - Beth

Yeah. I feel like a good side character is serving a plot function or highlighting a theme. You know what I mean? I think they're doing their job, but I I can imagine them having completely full lives. The way that it is in real life. We have side characters in our life, and you just... I feel like every time I go home, I get an info dump of a bunch of people I used to know and all the things that they've done in the interim. Yeah, people are living full lives.

[00:58:18.320] - Emma

I think both Daniel and Anna, or not Daniel, John and Anna serve parallel functions for Daniel because he sees parts of his life, how they could have worked differently. Because I think Anna's marriage, in particular, especially when he's at home for Christmas with Kennedy, it's like he's seeing a level of domesticity that's corrupted. This is the thing that he couldn't get with Paul and he couldn't get with Kennedy. He's only ever going to bear witness to it. But also it's like, it's shitty. This is the marriage that's accepted. And also 1959, no fault divorce does not exist. So it's like Anna's stuck in this marriage until time passes. And so that contrast. And then John, Daniel's really surprised. He's like, I can't believe that you have a gay club. I can't believe that people know about your boyfriend. Aren't you worried about these kids outing themselves? John, who's in academia, opposed to the FBI, is in a world that this is so much more accepted in 1975. In that same, that's the same period when he learns that Paul has died by suicide. It's when he quits the FBI. He's realizing that the world The world that he used to escape this homophobic culture of the 1950s has stagnated and the world has gone beyond him.

[00:59:38.710] - Emma

He's progressed in some ways with his open marriage, but he's also like, people can be out and have boyfriends that they have professional photographs with. It's not all... Again, it's with Daniel and Gennody realizing that Russia and United States have different pros and different cons, Daniel realizes the life that he's chosen has kept him repressed in some ways, where other people have gotten the chance to move forward.

[01:00:04.640] - Beth

Yeah. And I also like that it's highlight... The FBI is regressive in its views, and then the academia may as a little bit more progressive. So I think also when you think of progress happening in a country, it's not like monolithically, we all take one giant step forward. It's like everything's moving at its different pace, which I think is just adding layers to this book.

[01:00:26.440] - Emma

Yes.

[01:00:29.150] - Beth

Okay. So this is just you talking about John le Carré. I have never read a John le Carré book, but I can definitely see where there would be references, as this is like the spy guy.

[01:00:42.200] - Emma

I've only read a couple. I've finished maybe two or three, and I've started maybe 20. This is what I was going to try to start reading during the pandemic before I landed on romance. I was like, I'm going to read every John le Carré novel, and they're hard to follow if you're in the middle of a pandemic, I think.

[01:00:59.990] - Beth

I I feel like in the multiverse, there's a version where you started a Jean Lecare podcast.

[01:01:04.160] - Emma

I just read spy novels. So the book, I immediately thought of the Spy Who Came in from the Cold, which is probably the most famous one because it also has the best movie adaptation. It's like characters. The hot spy who came from the Cold, the big theme of it is characters who get disillusioned with what they're being asked to do and the mechanics of the Cold War. Both the machine on the side of the United States and the Soviet Union asking these men to work really closely and then ultimately keep each other at a distance. The spy who came in from the cold, from the '60s, again, is in this period where relations are not quite as frozen as they might be. You're aware of who's on the other side, and so you have a relationship with them in a way that is maybe outside of our imagination. But in a very Lecary novel... Basically in every Lecary novel, an important male character is coded as gay. The way that he writes about it is not nearly as explicit as you would imagine, and you have to know what the ciphers are of how he's referencing it.

[01:02:05.850] - Emma

I think that Esther Glenn gray probably is referencing this a little bit. When Gilman, who's one of the bosses for Daniel, mentions that he obviously had a relationship with an MI6 agent.

[01:02:17.060] - Beth

These things happen. Especially the British ones, because they all go to boarding schools and they're just all gay.

[01:02:23.610] - Emma

That's a big part of Lecary novels. It's like, who hasn't outgrown these phecadillos of the queerness. I think the big one that has the queer elements to it is Tinker Taylor, Soulja, Spy. There's a mole in the book who's queer. The spy who came in from the cold, the character who's gay, he's a double agent recruiter, and so he's like, queer coded villain. But the mole in the Tinker Taylor, soldier, spy is queer. Again, a lot of this is a little bit... John LeCarrie is not doing gay representation well. It's like a lot of them are the sinister queers. But more than anything throughout the book, there's this underlying fear that queerness makes a spy dangerous because they can be blackmailed. So exactly what happens with Paul. So like, spoilers for a tinker Taylor soldier spy. The agent who is possibly lovers with the mole is also the one who takes him out. Like the mole is... He's supposed to be able to be secreted away to Russia, but then his lover shoots him in order to shut down the knowledge that he has. So again, men across these books, like speaking code and cipher to indicate who is dangerous and who's not to be trusted.

[01:03:25.710] - Emma

And this is a big part of spy culture in England. You can think of Alan discovering, the coder who famously lost his security clearance in 1952 over gross indecency after all these services performed. The gross indecency was code for queer behavior. Then also, I think there might be a reference to this with John's profession. So John, the character that Daniel kisses and then beats him up and then becomes an art history professor. The fact that he becomes an art history professor, I thought about Anthony Blunt, specifically, who was a spy, who was an art historian, and then Guy Burgess, who is also gay. So they're both gay and they're double agents for the Soviets. I think the circumstances for the recruitment is very sympathetic. They're this tight-knit group of people at Cambridge, some of who are queer. In the 1930s, they get recruited before World War II and then are in the British Army during World War II. It just becomes this thing where you're protecting your friends, some of whom are protecting your most closely guarded secrets. This is this group of anticapitalists. Then it becomes so much more sorted as the Cold War progresses and so much more dangerous for their country as the Cold War progresses, but they're already in it.

[01:04:31.690] - Emma

They become individually exposed through the 1970s and '80s as their names get, the Cambridge Five, as their names come out. This is definitely in the minds of the British public, when Tinker Taylor, soldier spies coming out. And so, again, there's this real-life ramifications and real-life implications of queer spies. Who's to say if Anthony Blunt was a worst spy because he was gay, but he in part became a spy because men that knew his secrets were spies. And it's like, yeah, what begat that is Britain criminalizing homosexuality. So it's this very real fear as far as both homophobic British anxiety about it, but then also the men who were being spies, whether they were double agents or not, have this fear of being exposed because they're often keeping secrets.

[01:05:26.670] - Beth

Yeah. I think the theme of the podcast is we invite people on, and they just infoed up for a little bit. Like I said, I've never read a John LeCarre novel. I guess one thread I picked up while you were talking is just like, you mentioned these men are working so closely together, but they have to keep each other at a distance, which I think is just recipe for a relationship. That's perfect. Yeah. Well, thanks to Mel for recommending this. I enjoyed it a lot. And we'll probably read The Sleeping soldier next, or The Lark Still bravely singing. Looks interesting, too.

[01:06:10.050] - Emma

If people who are writing historical romance now wonder how they get Reformed Rakes on board, you should read this book because this is what we want. This is so much better than so many mainstream published books. I would read this over a Regency published in the last five years, any day.

[01:06:30.090] - Beth

I'm still a little floored that this is self-published. There are very good self-published books. I'm not trying to get that self-publish thing.

[01:06:35.400] - Emma

Yes. I think self-published, you just have to get a good rec from someone who knows. I will give a self-published book a lot of grace as far as the editing goes. But if you told me this was traditionally published and had an editor and had a whole machine behind it, I would also believe you. It's really tight, well paced, not a lot of fluff. It just it works so well.

[01:06:56.240] - Beth

Yes. Yes to all of that. Okay. Thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. If you'd like bonus content, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patron. Com/reformedrakes. You can follow us on Twitter, Blue Sky, and Instagram for show updates. The username for those platforms is at reformdrakes, or you can email us at reformdrakes@gmail.com. We love to hear from our listeners. Please write and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps a lot. Thank you again, and we will see you next time.