His Lordship’s Mistress

Show Notes

Jessica Andover needs money to pay off the mortgage on her estate. Instead of capitulating to her blackmailing neighbor who holds the mortgage and marrying him, Jessica decides to go to London and act on the stage, under an assumed name. In Regency England, this is her way of soliciting a protector. Philp Romney, Earl of Linton is the clear choice for Jessica, though many men vie for her, as she is a sudden sensation on stage. Philip quickly suspects there is more to Jessica’s story, even as she closely guards her past. Unsurprisingly, they fall in love along the way, complicating things. In a genre filled with convenient marriages and “oh no I love my wife” revelations, Joan Wolf’s 1982, His Lordship’s Mistress, takes a path less trod.

Check out Sara’s writing about mistresses in historical romance.

Books Referenced

The Lawrence Browne Affair by Cat Sebastian

The Lady’s Companion by Carla Kelly

Madensky Square by Eva Ibbotson

Lady In Blue by Lynn Kerstan

The Duke by Gaelan Foley

The Scandal of Rose by Joanna Shupe

The Mistress Experience by Scarlett Peckham

Revolting Prostitutes: The Fight for Sex Workers’ Rights by Molly Smith and Juno Mac

“I Don’t Consent to Enthusiastic Consent” by Phoenix Calida from Working It: Sex Workers and the Work of Sex

A Precious Jewel by Mary Balogh

Works Cited

Joan Wolf’s website

Transcript

[00:00:00.000] - Beth

Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that would give a diamond and ruby necklace to its mistress. My name is Beth, and I'm a grad student, and I write at the Substack ministrations.

[00:00:11.000] - Emma

I'm Emma, a law librarian, writing about justice and romance at the Substack Restorative Romance.

[00:00:15.400] - Beth

Jessica Andover needs money to pay off the mortgage on her estate. Instead of capitulating to her blackmailing neighbor who holds the mortgage and marrying him, Jessica decides to go to London and act on the stage under an assumed name. In Regency England, this is her way of soliciting a protector. Philip Romney, Earl of Linton, is a clear choice for Jessica, though many men vie for her as she is a sudden sensation on stage. Philip quickly suspects that there is more to Jessica's story, even as she closely guards her past. Unsurprisingly, they fall in love along the way, complicating things. In a genre filled with convenient marriages and, Oh, no, I love my wife revelations, Joan Wolf's 1982, His Lordship's mistress, takes a path less trod. This book is a Signet Regency romance, a category line whose name is often used as shorthand for signaling Georgette Hayerisms, a focus on the ton, and an investment in stayed values and storytelling. But Wolf writes a book that has a lot in common with some of the great mistress books of the genre, typically found in single-title romances, while keeping within category conventions. There are no explicit sex scenes.

[00:01:28.740] - Beth

There's an economy of and an abundance of historical details integrated into the plot, no matter how removed from the love story. Wolf cites Heyer as her favorite author, but she's written extensively across time periods: biblical romances, regency romances, medievals and contemporaries. She has a master's degree in comparative literature, and her interest in literature shows in his Lordship's mistress. The book is imbibed with well-hewed references to Shakespeare, but also many more obscure, 16th-century poets. She's working within a category formula, but pulling off something very special. So we have a guest today. Sara is definitely a regular in our group chat, where they have tweeted or said something and we're like, Yes, that's correct. So there is self-described Judy Cuevas superfan, which makes you an automatic reformed rake, by the way. And you can find Sara's writings at the website scarstuff. Com. Anyway, welcome.

[00:02:44.070] - Emma

yes, we're so excited to have them. Thank you.

[00:02:47.450] - Sara

Very exciting to be here.

[00:02:49.900] - Emma

I feel like Sara is a great follow. If you are interested in romance recommendations outside of the TikTok stuff, were you ever on TikTok?

[00:02:58.580] - Sara

No, I always got kicked off TikTok.

[00:03:00.800] - Emma

For the best.

[00:03:02.840] - Beth

I know, right?

[00:03:04.690] - Emma

But I feel like on TikTok, I was always holding people really close who's talked about anything other than the main stuff. It's like once I read Lisa Kleyaps, Tessa Dare, Sara MacLean. I was like, I know there's other stuff out there, but it's so hard to find other people talking about historicals that have their own quirky taste. And I was really interested in developing taste outside of what everyone is reading. But even I think a lot of contemporary readers read that stuff, and that's their early foray into historical stuff. But I think once I started following you, it was like, Oh, they read stuff. They just read stuff that they're interested in, and it's not... You have this backlog of taste in historical stuff that's not filtered through TikTok of them, which I love and I appreciate a lot because I've gotten so many good recs from you.

[00:03:49.240] - Beth

I feel like you're maybe similar to Emma, where Emma will dive deep into a particular author or be like, Oh, I want to follow this theme. I feel like you will do something similar, yes or Yeah.

[00:04:00.910] - Sara

If I find an author, or... Usually, I think it's an author, and I'll just fall down that.

[00:04:07.820] - Beth

Like their entire backlist. Yeah.

[00:04:10.340] - Sara

Or sometimes themes. I mean, I love books that are angsty. So if you're checking different websites or certain reader groups, people will be like, Oh, here's a cheating book. I'm like, Well, I got to read that.

[00:04:25.370] - Emma

Yes. Again, you fit it right into reformed rakes

[00:04:28.380] - Beth

I know what you're reading. I hope someone clips this out of context, but we're very pro-cheating on this podcast.

[00:04:36.730] - Emma

We're just pro-something happening.

[00:04:39.190] - Beth

We're very pro-conflict, especially when it adds to the character, our character is doing bad things to each other. Okay, so like we talked about in the intro, we're doing His Lordships Mistress. So I will do a quick plot summary so our listeners can be on the same page, and then we will dive into our discussion.

[00:05:00.820] - Beth

Jessica Andover's stepfather has died after spending all of the money out of Jessica's estate, Winchcombe. Her initial plan is to breed racehorses to get the money she needs for the estate and tuition for her two brothers to attend school. Her lawyer suggests that she marry, and Jessica counters that was her mother's solution, and look at how poorly that turned out. Her lawyer, Mr. Grassington, then says she should mortgage Winchcombe, and their neighbor, Edmund Belton, would as a friend of the family. A year later, Edmund Belton dies, leaving Henry Belton to inherit his property and Jessica's mortgage. Jessica visits her lawyer, Mr. Grassington, to ask about the terms of the mortgage. Henry Belton can call it in at any time and give only two months notice. Jessica tells Mr. Grassington, Sir Henry wants to marry me. If I do not agree to his extremely distasteful proposal, he intimates that he will foreclose on my mortgage. Mr. Grassington rightly points out that's blackmail and then asks if Jessica would consider marrying him. Jessica says she won't because as a married woman, she would lose Winchcombe anyway. She replies, No one will take Winchcombe from her. Three days later, Jessica heads to London and takes out a high interest rate loan from a money lender to pay off Henry Belton.

[00:06:23.700] - Beth

She uses another mortgage on Winchcombe as collateral. She lies to her old Governess, Ms. Burnley that she is meeting a cousin who will act as her escort. Jessica applies to work as an actress at Covent Garden, and the manager is impressed by her well-trained speaking voice. It's established earlier in the book that the governance was mostly hired for her good diction and love of Shakespeare. Her intention in working at the theater is to become a man's mistress, and knows that men often look for actresses and singers. She reasons that if she can make money by marrying, then she would retain greater control of her life as a mistress and make enough money to pay off the mortgage. She doesn't give management her real name, rather she goes by Jessica O'Neill, and she lies, saying that she worked out of small playhouses in the west of Ireland. The management at Covent Garden is impressed by her, and they cast her in the role of Juliet from Romeo and Juliet. She's a massive success.

[00:07:26.100] - Beth

Here in the narrative, we get the first description of Jessica's love interest, Philip.

[00:07:30.580] - Beth

And of all the great landowning Wig aristocrats, none looked more the part than did the present Earl of Linton. He was at this time 27 years of age and possessed a personal presence that instantly suggested a prince in very truth, a ruler. Warrior, warrior, and patron. Ironically, he was not involved with government, the wigs having been out of power for many years. But he was interested in certain areas of social reform and made it a point to be in the house whenever one of his causes came up for a vote. Philip attends one of Jessica's performances and asks to meet her. They meet and he asks to take her for a drive. All the other men know they have no chance now that Lord Linton has approached Jessica. Philip is to remain in London until Christmas, at which point he will return to his estate, Staplehurst.

[00:08:22.320] - Beth

Philip to belong to that diminishing number of wealthy, powerful, landed gentry who were genuinely attached to the land they owned and the people who worked for them.

[00:08:31.300] - Beth

They go for their drive and for supper twice. Jessica finds herself liking him. He had broached the topic that had brought her here with infinite delicacy. I have a house in Montpellier Square that is standing empty at the moment. It would make me very happy if you would move into it and let me take care of you. She accepts his offer, and the next morning, a carriage arrives and takes her to this home. For perhaps the first time, Jessica realized the enormity of what she had done. She sat down in a delicate chair in her bedroom and stared at the large, silk-hung bed. He was coming this evening. My God, Jessica said out loud, I don't have the faintest idea what I'm supposed to do.

[00:09:14.950] - Beth

She reaches out to another actress at the theater for advice. Her friend takes Jessica shopping for clothes and lingerie. She gives Jessica an herbal concoction to help prevent pregnancy. Linton goes to her that night. They kiss, and from Jessica's reaction, he asks her if it's her first time. Jessica doesn't seem to care much about her virginity, telling him if it's not him, it will be someone else. Internally, he agrees. They have sex.

[00:09:43.970] - Beth

When he departed a few hours later, he left a stunned Jessica behind him. She had had no idea her body could react that way it had. After he had dressed and was ready to go, he had bent and kissed her lightly on the temple. It will be better next time, he had promised. The thing that frightened her most was that she believed him.

[00:10:04.790] - Beth

Jessica and Philip get along well. They have a conversation about the Corn Laws, and both agree poor relief is bad because it incentivizes employers to not pay a living wage. Then the small parish taxpayer subsidizes the farmer and manufacturer. Jessica doesn't open up to Philip about other things. He notices when he asks her questions about herself, she becomes aloof. Jessica attends a gaming hell with Philip. There, where she meets Lord Alden. He was very rich, very bored, very aristocratic, and very ruthless.

[00:10:37.550] - Beth

He had a bad reputation when it came to women. He approaches Jessica, and she instantly dislikes him, and Philip proceeds almost immediately. The subject of going to a horse sale comes up and Jessica asks Philip if she can go with him. She also lets slip she has two brothers, something she berates herself for later, and recognizes how at ease she is with Philip. At the sail, Jessica's expertise becomes apparent. Philip presses to know more about her and asks her where in the west of Ireland she is from. Jessica replies, Wexford, tipping off to Philip if she isn't from Ireland, as Wexford is a county in the southeast of Ireland. A few months pass and we make it to December, and Philip heads home to Staplehurst, while Jessica remains in London. Philip has a good relationship with his mother, Lady Linton. His sister, Maria, has invited Lady Caroline in hopes to make a match for Philip. Lady Linton makes Philip agree to behave nicely, and agrees with Maria that it is time for him to marry. Jessica keeps up the charade of her dying cousin, Jean, via letters to her family back home. Philip returns to London and catches Jessica's performance. They head home and have sex.

[00:11:55.990] - Beth

Because he surprised her, Jessica feels she allowed more vulnerability. He gifts her a ruby and diamond necklace. Jessica tells him, Thank you. And from her tone, Philip can tell she doesn't want it. He tells her, even if she doesn't want it, it's hers. She can even sell it if she wishes. Jessica flinched as if he had struck her across the face, but he didn't seem to notice. Philip leaves for the next five days, and things aren't quite settled between them. He visits Jessica's Macbeth rehearsal and asks her to go for drive. Jessica's scene partner leaves, telling her he'll see her tomorrow. Jessica calls out Philip's jealousy and tells him she will pack and leave in the morning. Philip asks Jessica, Why won't you wear the necklace? And she responds, It makes her feel like a whore. Philip asks if she really believes that, and then says he regards her as the woman he loves. They have sex and stay in their bedroom until noon the next day. Jessica returns his love, telling him, You own me, body and soul. Do you know that? Philip helps run lines with Jessica. She worries about her anonymity, and she tells Philip she plans to give up acting, but keep him.

[00:13:13.530] - Beth

Of course, the opening of Macbeth is a smash hit. Afterward, Lord Alden approaches Jessica, telling her whatever Philip is paying her, he'll double it. She declines and moves away from him. A larger crowd forms around her, and she announces her intention to retire from the stage. Later at home, Philip asks if she'll miss acting, and she says she's not used to being around so many people when she grew up in the country. Three weeks later, Philip invites her to his friend Lord Holland's house, to which Jessica initially balks, echoing since she's an actress. They go, and here we mostly learn about how Lord Holland and his fellow Whigs need Philip to help unseat the Tories. Many people, including Philip's brother-in-law Matt notice Philip's love for Jessica. Philip's cousin writes to his mother, Mrs. Romney, to ask her to come to London so she can assist in rescuing Philip. Alarm spreads through the rest of Philip's family that he might marry his mistress. Jessica looks at her latest bank statement and realizes she has enough money to pay off the mortgage on Winchcombe. She feels bittersweet about it because now her moral justification for being a mistress is gone.

[00:14:28.420] - Beth

She's also pregnant. Philip arrives and proposes to her. Jessica initially rejects him, saying he will be a social pariah. He convinces her to think about it. Mrs. Romney comes to visit Jessica. Jessica asks what she should do about the proposal. Mrs. Romney tells Jessica that Philip will be disgraced and robbed of all of his friends and family. She tells Jessica she is sorry about the situation and asks how she will tell him. Jessica says she'll write him a letter. Lord Alden kidnaps Jessica. A groom who sees the whole thing runs to Philip, who rescues Jessica from Alden's house. As they reunite, he tells Jessica to go downstairs while he speaks with Alden. Jessica trips and falls down the stairs. Philip calls for a doctor. Jessica miscarries. Philip cares for her while she recovers. Many days pass. Jessica thinks she had left home six months ago, and in that half year's time, her whole life had altered. She thought back now to the arrogant, innocent girl she'd been. Not for her, the sitting back and allowing destiny to take its course. Not for her, a convenient marriage to some unknown, boorish, rich man. It was all right for other, less proud, less determined women.

[00:15:52.020] - Beth

Not for her, not for Jessica Andover. She would take her fate into her own hands. She would dare to do what few women of her class would do. She would dare to stand alone. Philip tells Jessica to buy some wedding clothes, and instead, she buys a ticket to go home. There's a little more that happens for Philip to uncover Jessica's true identity, but he eventually finds her at her estate in Winchcombe. He proposes to her again, which she refuses. Philip enlists the help of his sister, who is now on board because she knows Jessica's true identity and reasons for being a mistress. So she comes to convince Jessica that she is welcome into the family. It works. Philip and Jessica get married.

[00:16:39.530] - Beth

So as per usual, I like to ask what everyone's awareness of Joan Wolf was before this book, and then, specifically to Sara, why did you pitch us this book?

[00:16:50.170] - Sara

Okay, the first book I read by Joan Wolf was Margarita, published in 1982, also from the Signet Regency romance category line. I'm a fan of and collect books from this line. I came across a dear author post, If You Like Romances, Featuring a Mistress, while doing research for my mistress in Historical Romance Project. And the post mentions His Lordship's mistress, and I realized I actually already owned a physical copy. I pitch this book to the podcast because it's the earliest book I've read for my project so far, and it was published also in 1982. And also the book follows a popular formula that has been interpreted many times over by other romance authors. There are countless books featuring a mistress character. They aren't all the same, but how they overlap is fascinating to me. As with each book I've read for my project, I'm interested in understanding how this book is in conversation with the genre, how does it conform to or diverge from expectations, and most importantly, what is the book's relationship with sex work? How does morality figure into the characterization, or how the character understands themselves? Also, I think you all are so smart and have written and discussed sex workers and romance compassionately and intelligently.

[00:18:06.930] - Sara

If you look at the, or refer to the Blackshear episode, the Jennie Lin episode, conversations about Gaelen Foley's the Duke from the Starchy Character gets Unstarched episode, and Emma's writing from Restorative Romance.

[00:18:23.430] - Emma

Yeah, we do talk about sex work a lot. Until I saw that list of what you had written out for us, I was like, Do you think I think this is a theme for us because I think oftentimes, I think it's one of the topics that we are most dissatisfied with how other people speak about it, both in the fiction and then also in criticism, that I think it's often done a disservice by both the books and the people talking about the books. I'm glad that that is part of our reputation, that we talk about it intelligently and hopefully, compassion. I had not read any Joan Wolf before this episode, though I looked at my good reads. I put this on my TBR in early 2022, which was only a year into reading romance. I have no idea how I found this book or what I was interested in. No idea. But something piqued my interest and that I hadn't read it yet. I love that Sara found it on Dear Author because that's one of my favorite places to find recommendations. I love their taste. Chels turned me on to Dear Author as far, and I know that's a big part of their romance taste.

[00:19:17.900] - Emma

But I'm really happy to read another seen yet romance, especially after reading all those Mary Baloghs that we did for our last episode and my Mary Balogh project. It was because I think I had, again, I was narrowing my vision of what a Signet romance was like, which I think happens a lot with categories where you read a line and you're like, Oh, this is what it's like, and then you read a counter-example and you're like, Oh, it's more extensive than I think it could be. I think this book had some in common with Mary Baloghs' writing, but I also think there's stuff that Joan Wolf does differently, and that was nice to see within this framework of the category prompt.

[00:19:49.340] - Beth

I feel like unintentionally, we have paired two episodes together quite well. We have Mary Balogh and now we're talking about Joan Wolf, and I think it's worked out really nicely. I was just aware of Joan Wolf. I've I've never read anything by her. She's very charming. I highly recommend everyone go on her website and read her little biography. It's so, yeah, so charming. I don't know how else to describe it.

[00:20:11.150] - Emma

She just seems like a cool lady.

[00:20:12.640] - Beth

Yeah, she totally does. I do love her little updates just about her life. She has a picture of her horse who passed away because it says Romeo, R-I-P.

[00:20:25.230] - Emma

Others need to put their pets, pictures of their pets on their websites always.

[00:20:29.050] - Beth

I know. It should be mandatory. Don't worry. It's the pet tax to be on the internet. So much of the conflict between the couple comes from their supposed class difference, and that men didn't marry actresses and keep in good standing with the aristocracy. I should say that he is aristocracy, and she's landed gentry. So there is a class difference, but they're much closer than- Wait, if she was not an actress, there would be no issue with them.

[00:20:56.380] - Emma

Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:56.780] - Beth

If they just met, it would be fine. They have one fight, and it centers on a ruby and diamond necklace Philip gives to Jessica. She won't wear it. After he gives it to her, she's very distracted, and he can tell there's something wrong. So Philip comes to her Macbeth rehearsal, and he gets jealous of the male lead until that guy leaves. And so he finally asks her, Why won't you wear this necklace I gave you? So quoting from the book, She tore her eyes from his and turned to walk to the window. She rested her forehead against the cold glass and closed her eyes. Because it makes me feel like a whore, she said wearily, which is a very stupid reason, I know, since that is exactly what I am. So when I read this scene, I remembered Sara talking about a scene like this. I think you had tweeted it or something where you talked about a character bulking at being called a sex worker when her protector gives her jewelry. So while reading this book, I was like, Oh, was it this book that you were thinking about?

[00:22:01.590] - Sara

It's one of the books because a version of the scene is common enough for me to recognize a pattern within the genre. A protector tries to give the mistress a valuable gift, and it's usually jewelry. The mistress character then has to have some internal struggle with her identity. She's not a whore. She's only doing this for a short while. Who is she if she accepts expensive gifts for sex? Is this going too far? Philip reassures Jessica that he didn't give her the gift because he thinks of her as a sex worker, but because he loves her. Is this a signal that the exchange is not tied to sex work? I'm always asking questions that I don't necessarily have the answer for.

[00:22:40.760] - Beth

Well, I don't think there's always going to be easy answers in the text, and I feel like that's by design. It's muddy, in my opinion. It's complicated.

[00:22:49.500] - Emma

Yeah, I like how in this book, it doesn't draw a conclusion because I feel like a lesser, crueler author would say something like... Would come in on the side like, Jessica is not a sex worker, and that's different, and we're different than the other women who are sex workers. It's not just a self-perception thing. It's like, Well, the book lands on maybe she is performing sex work, and that's okay. It's very neutral about it, which is nice.

[00:23:11.900] - Beth

I also feel like it's like their relationship is evolving. It is also a defining the relationship moment. Why are you giving me this jewelry? What does this mean?

[00:23:22.520] - Emma

Yeah.

[00:23:23.250] - Sara

Well, in the book, it does include a follow-up scene that is surprisingly less common than I've noticed. Jessica sells the necklace and uses the money to pay off the interest for her loan, accomplishing what she set out to do, which is secure housing for her family.

[00:23:38.890] - Beth

Yeah. And it's funny because in that scene, Philip even was like, You can do whatever you want with that necklace. You can sell it. And in the moment before they have this conversation, she's like, Oh, I'm not going to... But she does do it, and I like that she does it.

[00:23:51.040] - Emma

Yeah. And I like that it doesn't come back. I feel like that would be too neat. It maybe would happen in a longer book where there'd be a scene where he's like, I bought you back the necklace.

[00:24:00.220] - Sara

Well, because she talks about selling her mom's jewelry for money, too. And so I was like, Well, when I first read this, I was like, She's not going to have to sell this because she sold the other...

[00:24:09.320] - Emma

But I was surprised. She did. She ultimately sells it in order to leave the arrangement earlier. It's like it pays off the interest on the mortgage. She has one more... If she worked one more month, she wouldn't have had to sell the necklace. But it's so untenable for her to be with him because she's pregnant, that she's like, I can't do this anymore. And so she sells the necklace. But I like that it's, again, this Jessica making a decision under crisis. Maybe she thought she would never have to make, but she's this person who can do that. When she's established that throughout the book, that she will do things that need to get done, even if they're incredibly painful for her. Again, Sara pointed out that it's something that we see a lot, but again, it's happening different. You can think how you know how a gift of a necklace will pale out in this relationship, but Wolf still does something a little different with it. And this question, I'm glad we brought it up, because I realized I love jewelry scenes in literature. I love when people are going through a box of jewelry.

[00:25:04.130] - Emma

I just love the descriptions. They're some of my favorite chapters in literature. I don't really know why. I'm not a jewelry person. I don't have this trait in real life. But I think there's something about looking at something so expensive and utterly decorative, especially in these scenes with women who are often thinking about beauty as an economic tool, and we're looking at something that is... It's a very easy metaphor that works really well for me. I was thinking specifically about the scene in Middlemarch where Dorothea and Celia, who are the sisters at the center of the book, or Dorothea is really at the center of the book, Celia is her sister. They're going through their mother's jewelry box to sort out what they're going to keep. Dorothea wants to be righteous and puritanical and take nothing. She's like, Celia, you have everything. I don't want anything else. But she has this niggling vanity that ends up making her take a ring and a matching bracelet. This is this hypocrisy that we see in Dorothea pretty early in the book. Then to compensate for her indulgence, she snaps at her sister when her sister suggests that Celia might wear the jewelry out in public.

[00:25:57.960] - Emma

Dorothea is like, How could you do that? That's so ridiculous. Like, it looks like people are going to comment on you wearing the jewelry. There's all this characterization happening in this very intimate scene between this, how the sisters interact with the objects. Dorothea has this ideal self that she struggles to uphold, and then when she fails, she lashes out. And then Celia's gap between her ideal self and and her ideal self and herself is much smaller. And so she struggles to see what Dorothea is being frustrated with. It's this very early conflict between these sisters who have had the same upbringing but are going to have different lives as the middle part plays out. And I think a similar gap happens between Jessica and Philip, he earnestly can't understand why a woman wouldn't want a necklace. And she's told him earlier in the book, she's like, You don't wear a necklace. And she's like, Don't buy me a necklace, don't buy me a necklace. And then he buys her a necklace. And she knows that she's being honest with him about her reaction, that she might be driving him away. She's been guarded up until this point.

[00:26:46.230] - Emma

And then this is one of the first unguarded moments she has. And then it extrapolates into the bigger conflict that Jessica is always thinking about people looking at them together, whereas Philip is only interested in looking at Jessica. She's thinking not what she thinks about necklace. She thinks, When people see me this necklace, they will think of me as his whore. I can't stand that. I think jewelry is a good shorthand for these relationships because it's completely unnecessary. And so how people react to something that is completely unnecessary there is no utility for it. I think it works in a vacuum, and then you can extrapolate out from it. So I just think... Also, I love that. My favorite jewelry scene in a romance level is the engagement ring in Lord of Scoundrels. That's my favorite. The lightning in blood. It's so good.

[00:27:29.830] - Beth

I love it. So, Emma, while you were talking, I had a half-form thought. I don't know if this is a good idea or not. But I feel like often there's jewelry scenes in queer romance, especially historical romance. Well, not often, but I feel like it's like I remember them. In the Lawrence Brown Affair by Kat Sebastian, Lawrence gives Georgie his father's ring, and it's like what you've been talking about. It can be an easy symbol for the relationship. And I think when you don't have those They're not going to get married at the end of the novel. But I think it is telling the reader and it's symbolic for the couple. And you can read it a couple of ways of being like, Hey, they've hit this milestone in their relationship now. So I don't know. I feel like maybe similar I really hear. It brought up a conversation and it's like their relationship is hitting a new milestone.

[00:28:22.470] - Emma

Yeah. And I think also it's these things that are decorative, but also we see it play out in His Lordship's mistress. They are economic. Because it's like, I'm investing money into you. I'm investing money into something that you find joyful or you find pretty. You see that in queer relationships where this is something sentimental, like a father's ring. It's like we are being connected in a way that... This is something that's sentimental and valuable to me, and I'm trusting you with it, this object that is, again, wholly decorative. I think that makes sense. Now I'm trying to think of other... Also, it's like something that is visible, but also like, textless? I see you wearing it. I know that's yours.

[00:29:05.270] - Sara

Also, sex workers might have, I think I've seen, I can't remember where, maybe on Twitter, being like, this wearing your bank account.

[00:29:14.800] - Emma

Yeah, the value of displaying yourself. It's like advertising, and you're also creating a lure and creating a higher value. If I can have this, I should be paid more. I talked about that a little bit later about some stuff with how sex workers, advertise and project a value.

[00:29:35.710] - Beth

So this setup is mostly for Emma because I can hear her in my head saying, Just get a job when a Typically, female character needs income and decides to marry for money instead. So Jessica is pragmatic, and she does get a job. As we talked about in the plot summary, she doesn't view marriage in the best light. She sees her mother's decision to marry as abstaining from her responsibility of running the estate, and Jessica's stepfather ran the estate into the ground, and she has two brothers to support. So this is quoting from the book, Marry for money she would not do. The thought of putting herself into the power of some man for the rest of her life filled her with horror. She might as well sell herself, she thought, which had brought her to the second option. She knew the amount of money her stepfather had spent on women. It appeared, she thought grimly to herself, that there was a good chance of making money by selling oneself temporarily. If anyone two years ago had told her she would consider becoming some rich man's mistress, she would have stared incredulously. But in her present situation, she didn't see any other way out.

[00:30:50.300] - Beth

The world would condemn such a course of action, she knew, but then she had no intention of letting her world know what she had done. And then this also leads her to acting because in the book, she thinks to herself, men looked for mistresses who are actresses or opera dancers. So Jessica's limited worldly wisdom told her, What do we think of Jessica's decision to get a job versus marrying for convenience?

[00:31:17.440] - Sara

I thought never underestimate a horse girl.

[00:31:20.080] - Beth

I didn't even talk about how she was raising and breeding resources. She's got multiple jobs, actually.

[00:31:28.860] - Emma

Yeah, her whole thing with... It's like she wants the stud farm to sustain them. It's just like, it takes a while to stud a horse. It's like she needs money now. And it's like she would have been solvent maybe a year or two from now. But the evil blackmailer is calling in the mortgage now, so she needs a new plan. But she has a plan. She just needs to...

[00:31:47.960] - Beth

It just didn't... Yeah, she tried that first. And you also have to race the horses to prove their worth, being like, this is a worthy stud. It's not even just raising them. You have to be like, okay, this one's a good one. Went a couple of races. So Yeah.

[00:32:00.930] - Sara

I thought it was smart of Jessica to use the theater as a way to vet and advertise to potential protectors. That just makes sense.

[00:32:08.870] - Beth

Yeah. No, it was good. And she's so popular, too. She is having her pick them together.

[00:32:14.220] - Emma

Everyone always said it early that it's like, Jessica has a beautiful speaking voice, but the reason she has a beautiful speaking voice is because her governess' only skill is oration. She doesn't speak Italian. She can't dance. She's not graceful, but it's like, she has a beautiful speaking voice, and now Jessica does, too.

[00:32:29.920] - Beth

She doesn't know geography, which comes back to haunt Jessica..

[00:32:36.930] - Emma

Tripoli is in the northern hemisphere, or Southern. She said Tripoli is in the Northern hemisphere. She tells Jessica that it's in the Southern hemisphere.

[00:32:42.760] - Beth

Right.

[00:32:43.730] - Emma

It's like, So this book, as far as jobs go, it remind me a lot of The Ladies' companion by Carly Kelly, which was my favorite romance that I read last year, which is also a Signet Regency romance. So either working as ladies' companion, which is something that spinsters do, or, quote, unquote, or working as a mistress/sexworker. It's often thought about my women characters in romances as something so terrible. And that's my frustration, and when I say just get a job, is I hate when I see it. A character is thinking like, that fate, working as a lady's companion or working as a mistress, working as a sex worker, is so terrible to me that it's this catastrophizing thought. And it's like, do we want to characterize a reality for many working class women as a thought that's as bad as death, as bad as being homeless, as bad as not having to put your food on your table? No. These are jobs. These are work things. They're work. Why do we have to perpetuate this narrative? I think it's the authors are doing this because it's like, this is something that women have done forever.

[00:33:43.460] - Emma

They've taken care of taking roles. They have taken sex work, jobs. It's a thing that people do. Sometimes the character will think these things, and then that will lead to the marriage and convenience. But more often, it's not that. It's this wishful tragedy thinking. They're using this fictive possibility as tragedy porn in the book, and I hate that. But I think either of these things would be better than not having a roof over your head or not being able to eat. And so I think a lot of read and see romances perpetuate the idea that there's some distance past where women didn't work or women had the...That work was so foreign to them that they couldn't conceive of it. But the women who didn't work during the Regency are the same women who don't work now, those who are dependent on either independent wealth or on someone else's income. If you're not working, you're getting money from somewhere. And so if you work now, you probably would have worked in the Regency, it just would have been a job that was maybe caretaking or piecework. Women have always had jobs. So I like how neutrally Jessica thinks about her work as a mistress, initially.

[00:34:41.900] - Emma

It's when she has the conflict with Philip, when she falls in love that she starts thinking about it more negatively. It only ever becomes a shame when she falls in love with them and knows that her decision has prevented them from ever being a couple together. And then also the horse husbandry stuff, I said, like Hot Girl Hobby alert. So I think Jessica is really smart about how she goes out, like she gets out from underneath the mortgage because she has this plan to set out the horses after she's done with the debt. I read a few good research that this is a common trope in Joan Wolf's writing, that she likes to write women who have passions or something. And I think I wasn't sure how often that happens because this is the only one that I've read. But I love that Wolf also loves horses because one of the links on her website is a link to her favorite dressage performance ever, which is a horse. I don't think she has any connection to the horse. It's just one she likes. She's like, This is the best performance you'll ever see by a horse.

[00:35:28.770] - Emma

I clicked on it, I was like, I love that. It looks great. I have no idea.

[00:35:34.140] - Beth

Is there even the most Joan Wolf? Or is that a lot where you're having hobbies?

[00:35:41.660] - Sara

I've read, I think three. And I can't remember the other hobbies because I think I was just reading.

[00:35:48.080] - Beth

Just reading, yeah. Haling them.

[00:35:49.160] - Emma

As you do.

[00:35:51.370] - Sara

I read this one with a specific purpose.

[00:35:54.390] - Beth

Yeah, yeah.

[00:35:55.100] - Sara

I close read it a little more than the other ones. I was just like, I'm having a good time. But I think I don't remember them. Was it music?

[00:36:01.000] - Emma

I feel like authors either do it or don't. And so if they do it, they do it in every book, or if they don't do it, it never happens.

[00:36:08.530] - Beth

I feel like Jessica is also so... I feel like Horsegirls, you normally read, they have a special bond with one horse. But Jessica is just so... She doesn't have that. She's just very clinical in her evaluation of, Oh, that horse's gait is weird. Not going to be good.

[00:36:24.060] - Emma

It's a skill. We see it being demonstrated. And I also like that she can't... She's so guarded about her past, but she's like, She can't hide the fact that she knows horses.

[00:36:31.340] - Beth

She's like, Can't wait, actually you're doing the wrong thing. Let me correct you.

[00:36:35.090] - Emma

He's like, You sure know a lot about this. Yeah, yeah. Get this fair. She's like, I'm Irish. Irish people know horses. I'm like, Is that true? Is that a stereotype?

[00:36:41.590] - Beth

Yeah, I feel like she was just baking up stereotypes about Irish people. They're like, Yeah, that's what we do in Western Ireland, even though that's... Okay, so Sara, you're writing a series on mistresses, as we referenced, and you published your post, The Mistress, Character, and Historical Romance: A Critical Look. It's very good. Everyone should read it. But the series will look at, and I'm now quoting you, romance as a relationship to the mistress character and sex work. I'm interested in how romance authors choose to engage with the societal norms of historical setting and how the, sometimes not so subtle imposition of contemporary standards, affects characterization and expectations placed upon these characters in terms of morality and desire. So I like how in your post, you talk about how books are not exactly recommendations, which we here on this podcast really appreciate. And I just wanted to ask you what trends you have noticed. For example, you say in your post that the mistress characters rarely stay mistresses, with the noted exception of Marensky Square by Eva Ibbitson, published in 1988. So really, this is me just setting up a great info dump for us and the listeners.

[00:37:58.910] - Beth

So if you just wanted to Can you talk a little bit about that, that'd be great.

[00:38:02.990] - Sara

Yeah. It's common for the mistress character's arc to include marriage, and I'm not necessarily against it. For instance, when I'm reading a category romance, like a signate regency or signate regency, a traditional romance line, I understand there are expectations for the happily ever after to be tied to marriage or an engagement. Authors are writing a story to fit into the category lines guidelines. It's when single title books conform to that similar expectation so readily that I start to bristle against the conformity.

[00:38:37.870] - Beth

Do you feel like those single title books, they're being influenced by the category, like how they've been written? So they're like, Well, that's how they're doing it. So they just follow suit, or what do you think?

[00:38:49.040] - Sara

That's what I was thinking. I need to read more mistresses and romances in the '80s and earlier because I'm trying to figure out where this formula is coming from. Is it the category line or is it one of the same? I don't know. Did her write any mistresses in her romances?

[00:39:10.150] - Emma

Not that I know, but I have not read that many.

[00:39:12.350] - Sara

I haven't read any, though. Yeah.

[00:39:15.400] - Emma

I finished one of the Waterloo ones that I was surprised how much I liked it. But I guess I've read a couple. I will say her books are... The ones that I read are surprisingly less conservative than I think we characterize her, which I think is also how I feel about the signets. I think we often use these things. I do think her has some reactionary conservatism with how she writes the Regency period because I think she's projecting a Victorian notion on it. I think that is absolutely true. However, I think characterizing her as extreme conservative, an extreme reactionary, displaces some of our current moment that we were in, that we are distancing ourselves from her. Because reading her books, there are things that happen in those books that I think people would not tolerate this in a book in 2025 with female behavior or how people talk to each other and some of the class stuff. I think she's interested in writing interesting books, so interesting things do happen. Sometimes I think... I would be interested. I don't know if there's a mistress book by her out there. I don't know if that would be a bridge too far for her.

[00:40:17.320] - Emma

But I do think sometimes we overselle her conservatism to diminish ours, which I think we are also in a conservative reactionary moment in some of the books that are coming out.

[00:40:29.650] - Sara

Absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. I guess having to legitimize the character through marriage, that's still happening. That is still seeing the way to make a mistress.

[00:40:43.050] - Emma

I do wonder in this book, I thought maybe if she didn't have the younger brothers, that was why they get married. I mean, he does love her and he wants to marry her and all that. But I think she feels the need to get married a little bit more. It would be harder for her to carry on this relationship without If the brothers weren't there, I think she would maybe have a harder line about not... Because she's so against marriage at the beginning of the book. I think maybe the brothers and legitimizing that and legitimizing her behavior to protect her brothers is maybe part of it. I don't know if Joan Wolf would have written that book, but I think the story could work with her staying a mistress, and that would be believable. I could see this character doing that if she didn't have her younger brothers.

[00:41:24.090] - Sara

Yeah, that's a good point. So birth control has so many trends. It It seems like in these books that I've been reading, birth control methods are often mentioned in the romances because it's important to prevent pregnancy, at least until a legitimate heir is conceived with the hero. Lady in Blue by Lynn, published in 1995, includes a scene where a side character describes for the heroine multiple birth control options. And spoilers for this book, there's no surprise pregnancy. So the birth control was successful.

[00:41:59.240] - Beth

Well, it's interesting Because in this book, it's just described as an herbal concoction. Herbs? Yeah. But it's just the one. But it's interesting because it seems like it failed or maybe she... When she was recommended, it was like, This is mostly... This will work well enough.

[00:42:19.820] - Emma

It wasn't.

[00:42:21.490] - Sara

Well, yeah, probably quite a few of their methods weren't as successful as today's. But it does come up a lot. The mistress character or if they're sex workers, not getting pregnant is a big part of the stressor. Then accidentally getting pregnant does become an issue in a lot of books, too. But they're talking about sexual health, I mean, I guess that's the thing. That's not new. Books have always been doing this.

[00:42:54.540] - Beth

I feel like it's also just this has always been a logistic, and I don't like when newer authors are acting like, We just invented birth control.

[00:43:03.660] - Sara

Great.

[00:43:06.170] - Emma

I have harped on this so many times. I was like, There are people who had sex who didn't get pregnant. I was like, There are methods to have sex that don't involve pregnancy. I was like, If you're smart and you're a sex worker, there are things that you don't need to be doing. There's one thing that causes pregnancy. You could be creative. I was like, In romance, we can be creative. That's the whole point. Why are we so away from the supremacy of penetrative sex that leads the pregnancy. I don't know why there are more characters who are like, I won't do that one thing because I don't want to get pregnant. Because that's feasibly what people did in the 18th and 19th century, is we were engaging in having orgasms together without penetrative sex. That's the method. I honestly don't know if I read a book other than The Count of Conspiracy, where people talk about that, where there's one thing that causes pregnancy. It frustrates me a lot. That the ultimate birth control is not having penetrative sex. Didn't these people go to abstinence only education high school? I was like, That's what people in high school are doing.

[00:44:06.250] - Sara

Okay, so this didn't happen in His Lordship's mistress, but is customary. A visit to the Modeste for a new wardrobe provided by the protector. In His Lordship's mistress, Jessica asks a friend she knows from the theater to help her find appropriate clothing and linger. Shopping for clothes or redecorating a townhouse or a new apartment is popular outside of romances with mistress characters. But I think it's different. It's different because hiring a mistress is a sign of wealth. So then redecorating and then buying all the new clothing. That's also part of that, my wealth.

[00:44:49.180] - Emma

I love any time a hero takes his mistress to the house and is like, You could redecorate. And then they describe the most boring townhouse in the world. And she's like, I'm absolutely redecorating. It's one of my favorite I love when they describe the wallpapers and stuff. But yeah, it's like... Or when there's... I think I read somewhere, there's like, Hints of the past mistress, like the old decoration, and she's like, I'm definitely redoing it.

[00:45:10.850] - Sara

There's a Mary Balog book, not a signet, and it's the most body declarations that the previous mistress had. And yeah, she's just like, Oh, my God. There's like mirrors on the wall or something. I would like to read more romances published around or before His Lordship's mistress because I have plenty of other books published after the 1980s. I reread Galen Foley as the Duke this week after I reread His Lordship's mistress. They aren't necessarily perfect comparisons, but I think both authors made interesting choices for their heroines that I wish were more common, namely that choosing sex work is not the worst option available. In fact, it could provide the character more options. It's hard to find that with newer. Strangely, it's just the older books are more interested in what you guys had said and having something happen, people making decisions that are uncommon or whatever.

[00:46:13.180] - Emma

I think the party line right now is that a hero who would employ a mistress does not respect that mistress. I think they frame the suspicion maybe about sex work in general, which again is a common way of talking about sex work, as suspicion about the man who's employing a sex worker, whether it's a mistress or a street worker or anything. If you're writing a hero who would do that, you're writing a hero who we don't want to be the hero. I think that sounds like the way that people talk about it now. We can't have that because the hero, we'd be disappointed in the hero. Then instead, what we get is characters who do nothing. But also, I mean, Philip is a great example of the most upstanding man. The world that he lives in, everyone thinks he is perfect, and he employs a mistress. This is just the part and parcel Well, this is Regency culture. It doesn't have to be- I was going to say, he's not a rake, he's not a rogue.

[00:47:06.430] - Sara

When he comes to town, this is what he does. He employs a mistress.

[00:47:10.420] - Emma

His mother and sister are like, Yeah, he's just probably with one of his mistresses. But they're like, He's spending a lot of time with this one. But it's like he's done it before, and it's what he does, and they're fine with it. Yeah.

[00:47:19.910] - Sara

Most romances I have read for this project so far, the protector is unmarried because the protector is a wealthy aristocrat that a family member, usually the mother or grandmother, is very concerned about an heir. Potential matches are brought in, and sometimes an engagement follows. The heroine's reaction to this is the tension. Usually in the third act, she might leave the hero because she doesn't want to be a married man's mistress. A family member may seek the heroine out and state explicitly that a marriage between her and the hero would be impossible due to how society will react. I think I've read three or four romances where the woman considered an appropriate match sneaks off to marry another person, solving the issue of how does this wealthy aristocrat get out of an engagement he doesn't want to be in.

[00:48:08.540] - Emma

I think I read a Mary Ball that does that. Is that what happens in the one with the boring hero who's the super beta, William. Is he engaged to somebody?

[00:48:18.630] - Sara

There's one or two of hers that I've read that do that. Yeah.

[00:48:22.790] - Emma

I can't remember which one it is. But I can't remember if it happens in a Precious Jewel. They all run together. Precious Jewel is It has many great mistress trope scenes in it with that townhouse and all that. I don't know.

[00:48:37.110] - Sara

I guess thinking about this since he's unmarried or unattached, the hero, because we have, I think, feelings maybe about cheating.

[00:48:44.630] - Emma

People do have feelings about cheating. We know that.

[00:48:48.780] - Sara

Cheating is all the time. Sometimes they'll get engaged. He'll be engaged and the mistress character understands, Okay, we can keep doing this. Because it's just an engagement in Regency England. They're not dating or serious.

[00:49:02.160] - Emma

It's just like- It's a contract at this point.

[00:49:03.990] - Sara

It's a contract at that point, yeah. So they might try to stay together as long as possible.

[00:49:09.690] - Beth

Yeah. I don't know if you kept this point in, so I may be stealing a point further down, but reference Thierry Thomas's not quite a husband, where... What's the hero's name in that? But his parents- Leo, yeah. Leo, yeah. His mom has someone she's with, and that's just like, and because her husband is just cool with it. And that's his real father. Yeah, and that's his real father. They're like one big... This is making their family work. I think leaving the person, the hero, unmarried, people have complicated feelings about cheating or I think come too hard on it. But I think it actually could be a really interesting thing to explore in fiction. How would you make that work? Why are these people married? I feel like there's not enough lavender marriages in historical romance. You know what I mean?

[00:50:02.890] - Sara

I wrote about that in my post, the Sherry Thomas reference. Because it was like a sly way of throwing in, well, the woman is the cheater in this case. I mean, I don't consider it cheating because they agree that- Yeah, they're all on board with it.

[00:50:18.640] - Beth

It's not cheating.

[00:50:19.390] - Emma

We talk about this in our cheating episode.

[00:50:20.970] - Sara

He's always cheating, and it's like, well, it's her. It's a woman who is doing this. Right. Yeah.

[00:50:26.620] - Emma

I think about... It's like, people talk on both sides of their mouths with how they talk about marriage in the 19th century, where they were like, it was for a contract. It wasn't for love. The Roman novels are the exception. But then we get so aggrieved when a man considers taking a mistress when he's in a contractual marriage or the opposite. People did this all the time. The person that the curiate is named after, the Prince Regent, famously had mistresses that he adored, but was married to someone that he couldn't divorce. He tried to divorce her, but he couldn't. It's like, that's the nature of... I guess it's like people would argue, it's like, Well, we have to have happily ever afters. Why does a happily ever after have to be a marriage if all parties are not agreed? If the happily ever after could include the wife or husband in the ménage à trois being happy. Also, I think this also happens in real life currently, that a lot of people's marriages, you don't know what's going on in them. People often think that what's cheating for one person is not cheating for another person.

[00:51:34.960] - Emma

You have no idea what's going on. I think all marriages are different. But in romances, we have a very narrow definition of what is a happy marriage and what is allowed in a marriage. It's so narrowing. For all the talk about how expansive the genre is about love, this is something that people have a very strict rules about. It's like, you don't have to read them, but I think they can exist. I think these stories can exist.

[00:51:58.830] - Sara

They should exist. Interesting.

[00:52:01.200] - Beth

Yeah. I think that's why we're always pushing to redefine what is a romance and how you would define a happily ever after, because I feel like it is so tied to these two people are now married together at the end.

[00:52:14.080] - Emma

Well, you say It used to have to be engaged or married. We moved on from that because we recognize that some people don't get married. So it's like, ostensibly, we've moved on for that. But I still think a lot of people think that if a mistress and a man were committed to each other, we're going to be together forever, and they were not married, some people would consider that not a happy ever after.

[00:52:39.510] - Beth

Do we want to get into Joanna Shoup now?

[00:52:42.550] - Sara

Yeah. I read 2024, released by Joanna Shup, The Scandal of Rose, about a 19-year-old actress who refuses to be a rich man's mistress. Enter the rich man, Mohr, who attends all of her performances because he doesn't have a real job. He is divorced, and the dissolution of his marriage was a disaster for him. His personal life was strewn across tabloid papers, and he believes his scandals caused his father to die. We later learn his father actually died in bed with his own mistress. Mohr She wants to basically date Rose, but she only has sex with men once and then moves on. Rose's definition of sex is P and V. Oral and hand stuff don't really count. She's 19. I guess that makes sense. Some of the actresses Rose works with have benefactors who supplement their income or help pay for their housing. Rose explains, In exchange for intimacies, she never judged them. Yet, she wasn't interested in a benefactor. She had dreams of financial them, one that depended on no man. And that just feels like, not that there's anything wrong with that. It's not really clear to me if Rose actually became More's mistress because she was often reminding the reader her herself and More that she would never become a mistress.

[00:54:02.760] - Sara

But she did accept gifts and an actual house for more. During the third act, Rose finds out more is going to be forced to marry an heiress in a marriage of convenience. At this point, she refuses to be a rich married man's mistress and fucks off to France. She says to herself, Actresses didn't mix with the Knickerbocker elites unless they were being paid for the privilege and guided compensation, gilded, excuse me, compensation wasn't worth the heartache. I was worth more, and I was done letting a man have control over me and my future. It was time to stand on my own once again, but I would survive. It was what women like me did. And then a few pages later, Rose says, She left New York for Paris with almost nothing but the clothes on my back. She didn't sell the house, which would have made her very wealthy, and she didn't sell any of the expensive gifts. The income from selling them would have given her options. Shup does employ this bootstrap mentality in some her other books, but here it feels especially thoughtless. It's important for Rose to receive a marriage proposal for more.

[00:55:05.880] - Sara

She doesn't need or want a man unless it's within the bounds of marriage. So I'm just very confused by this.

[00:55:13.250] - Emma

Yeah. It feels like Jessica's thoughts It's like out there being a cohesion to them. Yeah, the thought of it's what women like me did, but then choosing to go to Paris with no... You have resources, but you're not using them. So what women like you? What are you doing? You're not taking advantage. You're not doing this like, cut throat, taking advantage of your situation by any means possible. It's like, Jessica sells the necklace. That's resourcefulness. This is foolishness?

[00:55:42.510] - Sara

Well, and Jessica also made money being Philip's mistress.

[00:55:46.930] - Emma

Right. She saves the money and pays off her debt. Also the idea that I won't be a mistress, but then becomes a mistress, but won't label that. And then I won't be a married man's mistress. So you admit that you're a mistress?

[00:56:00.120] - Beth

It feels just so hollow. I feel like I've read this where the female character would just be like, I don't need a man, and then their actions. I don't know. It just feels not great. I don't like this.

[00:56:15.070] - Sara

She follows her to Paris and then puts advertisements out to find her, and then they get engaged. And she's like, I get to act and throw lavish parties now.

[00:56:28.280] - Beth

Because they're in France.

[00:56:29.270] - Sara

She's still an actress at the end of the Yeah, that's why she goes to France.

[00:56:33.870] - Emma

Oh, okay. This just feel like the worst possible combination of plot details. It's like the ethos combined with the plot is very annoying.

[00:56:47.480] - Sara

Yeah. I mean, I think there was potential here. She's going to act, but then it's like, I act. She doesn't have to act, though.

[00:56:56.710] - Emma

Right. That's the definition of a hot girl hobby is when by the end the book, you're continuing your passion, but it doesn't enforce your livelihood at all. It doesn't actually make you money. Or especially a hot girl hobby is never profitable. But I think it was one distinction here with Jessica's thing is it will be profitable eventually, but you're not making the big bucks off of presenting your paleontology papers. It's someone of the leisure class having a hobby, but also these women are not of the leisure class because they often don't have any money until they get married. So it's this weird disconnect.

[00:57:28.650] - Beth

It just feels like a very attempt at characterization. This is my character, and they like archeology, horses, music, fill in the blank, but it's not adding anything to the plot. We've talked about in the past in Emma's sub stack, she's talked about if you could just If you take out the hobby and the plot doesn't change, why was it there? I feel like with the acting, maybe it is moving the plot forward in the way that that's maybe how they meet. But you could have had another meet cute. I don't know.

[00:57:59.770] - Emma

I feel I think about how integrated the acting is in this book, where it's like, this is how we get to know Jessica. It's her ability to act. Also, Philip knows that she is acting with him. He acknowledges that. He's like, She's a good actress. I have to be aware that her presentation to me is coded and layered. I don't know if I'm getting the truth from her when I'm falling in love with her. Am I falling in love with the actress or the real person?

[00:58:24.520] - Sara

She uses acting to find a protector. I mean, that's also a trend I've noticed the later. It's really inappropriate to be asked to be someone's mistress. I have the hot girl hobby, and that's maybe where you meet the hero, and then they extend an offer, and that's gross.

[00:58:46.540] - Emma

I do this book where Jessica is like, Philip did it in a really nice way. It's like he was very subtle about it. He's like, I would like to go home with you. And she's like, I need money to furnish the house. And he's like, Great, cool.

[00:59:01.460] - Sara

Yeah, I got it.

[00:59:02.990] - Emma

Of course, I'll pay for it. It's like passing someone like when you tip a waiter and you either look really cool doing it or you look really dorky. I was like, Philip knows how to get a mistress.

[00:59:13.000] - Sara

I love that scene because Jessica It's also part of how she... She's good with people, too. She's good at reading them. So instead of saying, I can't afford to buy... She's just like, Oh, that sounds lovely, but I don't know if I can really... That sounds pretty expensive. And that leaves it open for him to be like,.

[00:59:36.890] - Emma

I just wanted to say as a side note here, because it's my chance to talk about my least favorite book of all time.

[00:59:42.840] - Beth

Oh, I almost was going to break up the mistress experience Because it sounded like it. I'm glad we're going this way.

[00:59:48.380] - Emma

I hate this. So this happens in the Joanna Street book that Sara was talking about, and it also happens in the mistress Experience. I don't know why authors are so interested in sex workers whose business model is I only sleep with anyone once. I guess it's not maybe Rose's business model as much as a personal ethos that she just only does it once. But this happens in The Mistress Experience by Scarlett Packham, which I read last year. This is Thais' whole business model, where it's like she creates a lure by only sleeping with men once. And then in the book, she auctions off the chance for her to act as a mistress for charity, which is unique because she's famous and laitly sleeps with men once. This, to me, just reveals authors who do not think about sex workers as workers or as people who make logical decisions, because this, at best, is a marketing tactic that a sex worker might use. I think this is something that if you speak to sex workers or you read sex workers' writings or you have friends who are sex workers, you realize that sometimes they talk in a different way online in their advertisements, any front client-facing profile that you see, if you have access to on the internet, is client-facing.

[01:00:53.880] - Emma

That's the phrase client-facing. They may speak about sex work differently there than they do in their private lives or on a non-client-facing profile. I think that's one of the things that Jessica gets at, where it's like she knows that she is different in front of people who are potential clients than she is not with that. But in practice, the idea of only sleeping with anyone once makes no sense. Sex work is a business with clients. Getting new clients is the most expensive part of any business, especially in sex work, where you're vulnerable to violence. It makes sense to develop consistent relationships with vetted clients. I just think of the author's right characteristics of this way. It's obvious that they're using sex work as a way to add celacity to their books. Like, Oh, this is dramatic or sinister or it's sexy, rather than thinking about sex work as work and as a business. What other business would only sell to one client one time? It doesn't make any sense. It's just one of those things that I think betrays a lack of thought in how this is integrated into the books. I think it also happens more...

[01:01:51.030] - Emma

I see it more with newer things, newer books where they feel this is a way to... It just feels like they've invented this thing that happens. I was like, It just doesn't make any sense. You have to be a very good reason why this is the business model, because if you haven't explained it in a good way, it makes you look like a fool to me, honestly.

[01:02:10.880] - Sara

I think I recently saw a promo for an unreleased romance that advertised She's his mistress for two weeks. He only hires mistresses for two weeks. And I'm like, I don't know. I feel like that would be... Like he's not good at...

[01:02:29.220] - Emma

Right. Well, also, is it a mistress at that point? There's this information that there's housing and a salary, and you get all these... That was my issue with a mistress experience. She was like, I don't want to be a mistress because it makes me too dependent on men. I was like, Well, you're currently dependent on men. It's just a different man every time. It never backs up on her. Scarlett Beckham never deals with the fact that maybe this would endanger Thais at all, which it just seems like It's so not thoughtful. It drives me crazy. Yeah.

[01:03:05.130] - Sara

I recently read Revolting Prostitutes: The Fight for Sex Workers Rights by Molly Smith and Juneau Mack. Emma has recommended this book several times, so everyone should read it. And this passage stood out to me. Despite their precarious feminism, prostitutes' relationship with the wider feminist movement has always been fraught. In the mid-19th century, a middle-class woman emerged into the public sphere of the profession. Institutions. A new role was invented, which married the ideal values and attributes of middle class femininity to paid employment. In part, this can be thought of as a feminist project. As the alleged moral superiority of these women justified their taking a more public role in society, including working outside the home, the legal right to own property, the vote, and so on. But the creation of professionalized caring roles such as philanthropic and social work was about employment that reproduced rather than upset gender roles. These women were reasserting their position in a class hierarchy over working class people, particularly working class women and children who were targeted as recipients for maternalistic and course forms of care. I have so many notes and highlights from the book. It's difficult to choose one, but- I do really recommend this book.

[01:04:22.120] - Emma

It totally shaped my politics when I read it in law school. I returned to it a lot, and I think you don't have to have a huge background in sex work to read it. It's written by two sex workers, Wally Smith and Juneaback, both have experience in the field, which I think is really important when you're reading about sex work, because I think it's very easy to fall into paternalistic NGO talk about decriminalization, or not decriminalization, actually, the Nordic model and all that. I think findings written by sex workers, I think, is really important if you're interested in exploring how this can inform your politics.

[01:04:57.100] - Beth

I read this book, and I don't feel like I have a a very strong background in understanding sex work. It was very approachable to me. I think the two main ideas I got from it that I've applied across fields that have really helped is just the power of calling something work and calling it labor That is where you get your power from. Then also just allowing things to be neutral. At the beginning of the book, they're like, We're not arguing for these other types of feminism or approaches. This is a We are workers. This is a labor thing. I think that has really shaped, not just how I see sex work, but a lot of things.

[01:05:39.970] - Emma

Yeah, the quote Sara pulled. I hadn't thought about this before, but I was thinking about... I'm reissuing my project about marital rape right now, and I found a new article that is really changing how I think about it, I think, for the better and making me think about... I'm reediting something that I published a couple of years ago about marital rape and the the popularity of bonus strippers in the 1970s and the marital rape exemptions. But this was a very 19th-century ideal. You look at what 19th-century feminists were arguing for when it comes to... They were not arguing to remove marital rape exemptions from the law. They were arguing that we should shame men for doing this. This should be a social issue, and they weren't looking to criminalize it necessarily because they were looking for... They were not specifically looking for non-carceral solutions, but they were advocating for non-carceral solutions because they didn't believe that had a chance of removing these statuts. But the theory behind those laws, which I think is actually more interesting than the advocacy itself, is that these middle class women thought, I should have the right to be in a public space like my husband, and the way that I will get that right is having control over my own body.

[01:06:47.220] - Emma

This is my God given right as a member of the bourgeoisie to be in a public space advocating for other politics, being able to vote. I'm able to do that if I have control over how many children that I have. It's It's not this argument about bodily autonomy, the way that we talk about consent in the 21st century. It's more about autonomy of the middle class to be in public in that choice. They were not thinking... It's weird reading Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan Anthony talk about this because it feels like something that's very progressive for them. But then they throw working class women under the bus and you're like, Oh, that sounds like them. I don't know I actually have a point here, but I think that threat of the 19th century of bourgeois women looking to be in public and taking advantage of working class women in order to do that, I think that feminism, I think, is something we don't see in a lot of romances. The 19th century feminism is often like, suffragettes, and we're looking for the right to vote, and we don't necessarily see how people like Jessica, who had to do something else, who had to be in public in this coercive way, those stories get hidden when we're writing a feminist romance novel.

[01:08:06.450] - Sara

I was going to say I liked that passage just because I feel like it spoke to exactly all the different things I struggle with with the ways feminism is employed in some current romance books or recent last 10 years or so. Sex work is not acceptable work in many of these books, even the ones where the main character is a sex worker. Yeah.

[01:08:29.920] - Emma

The other thing I thought about with this quote is, so I've been seeing this rising tide of people arguing that marriage is akin to sex work. I think you could read this book and make those connections. I don't know if the book is making them, but I think someone with bad faith or that bad take reading this book could do it. I think especially people will look at it historically because they look at marriage as representing an exchange of money and a protection for sex, which this book explores. I think his daughter's mistress and other good romances about sex work to actually push against this. First off, street women are not more likely to policed or interact with the carceral state as a result of their marriage to men. That is the big distinction between... When people argue that marriage now is like sex work because you're getting protection from a man, it's like you're ignoring the carceral state and you're ignoring how often sex work is criminalized. So marriage cannot be sex work in this way, even when the work was not criminalized. So Jessica, she's never in danger of the police state that's not present in the book, and I don't think she would be as a mistress in the 19th century.

[01:09:27.240] - Emma

But I do think we see a lot of her doing work that isn't a part of the marriage process. The vetting process of Philip is different than if she had participated in the taunt. She had to do it herself rather than having the society do it for her. Her guarding her past, to keep things pleasant for him, that's part of work. There's this gap between how a mistress or a sex worker is treated and a wife, not even just by the husband, but by the world at large. That's one of the things the book explores. Then plus, looking at the 19th century, only in terms of what is being taken away is, again, an incredibly bourgeois outlook. While laws surrounding marriage rely on the inequality of genders and are paternalistic towards women within not having any property rights, which is often what's cited when we talk about these feminist romance novels outside their husband, there were benefits to getting married, as evidenced by the millions of people who did it. If marriage was just a form of sex work, which diminished legal rights, why would anyone not do what Jessica did? People got married because there was a benefit to them, whether it was economic or legal or romantic.

[01:10:22.510] - Emma

It was there, and there was a distinction between that and sex work. Many more people chose to get married than to enter sex work. I do think if anyone wants make that metaphor, they should read Revolting Prostitutes. I think it does a good job of respecting those domestic labor and caretaking roles that are in marriage, and we talk about domestic work and domestic labor while also being clear about the distinction between unpaid labor of wives and sex work.

[01:10:42.220] - Sara

Well, and a lot of romance also devalues domestic labor and caretaking roles. I don't know if I have an any other point.

[01:10:53.970] - Beth

Yes. No, we agree.

[01:10:55.820] - Emma

How many books have a woman bemoaning to her maid about the chance of getting a job. She's like, I have to go work. And it's like, you're talking to a woman that you employ. Who has a job?

[01:11:08.290] - Sara

They were probably six. Right.

[01:11:11.620] - Beth

So I think something that makes all of us on the Reform Drake's podcast, guests included, Want to Walk Straight into the Ocean, is talking about good and bad. I have scare quotes around that, rep in romance. I think it's a boring way to talk about books and a reductive way to talk about art. Is his Lordship's mistress good sex worker representation? I mean, I find the ultimate message and resolution quite conservative and neat. But I find Jessica an endearing character, a 21-year-old who jumps into this world aware of her lack of experience and knowledge, but who knows herself well enough to know that being a mistress is a good solution to her financial troubles and situation, and it's something that works for her. I feel like I'm understanding how much I like this book. I really did like it a lot. And I think it has provided, obviously, we were doing a whole episode right now, lots of things to talk about, and I think there's multiple ways to read things. But yeah, what do we think?

[01:12:13.190] - Sara

Well, yeah, I think you can How can you talk about this book without being like, It has the good rep. There's so many things to talk about in this book. And that's what I think valuable, is the things it brings up and how it's in conversation with romance itself, other books, newer books, older books, whatever.

[01:12:32.160] - Emma

I think that's a huge benefit of categories is that they announced their placement. And so you know what month they came out, who was reading them. It was like, sitting at readers or the people who are reading this book immediately the month that it comes out. And like, Joan Wolf. You can do like, narcissism of the small differences between Joan Wolf and Mary Ballet, between one Joan Wolf book and another book, because they're all going to be within this very strict limit of what is written. And so when they deviate, it's like something meaningful is happening. I I think categories are... They're so fruitful for that, and I'm surprised at how fruitful they are, but also how under discussed they are, because it's so obvious to me that it's like, this is where interesting stuff happens.

[01:13:13.060] - Sara

Well, yeah. I think because there's Here's the theme, everyone's got to try the theme. Someone eventually does it. There's so many of them coming out, but I don't know, that wasn't really clear.

[01:13:28.910] - Beth

No, that makes a lot It makes sense. Actually, you're saying that where it's like people are all like, ripping off of... You have these boundaries. And honestly, I feel like that can make the best art sometimes. You have the parameters and how you work within those parameters, I think, can make very interesting art. And a little tangent off of this, I saw a tweet by KJ Tarles the other day, or a tweet. This was on Blue Sky. I don't know what to call Blue Sky.

[01:13:56.270] - Emma

I think technically they call them Skeets, which is terrible.

[01:13:58.750] - Beth

No. I don't say that. I think K. J. Tarles used to work as an editor at Mills & Boon, which, again, big categories. And she took a screenshot of a book that had come out of the title. She just talked about how hard it was to come up with new titles for books because it's just all variation of certain keywords. His Lordship's mistress immediately conveys to you what that book is about. That's what these categories are looking for. But I just found it so... She was just like, This is amazing. I don't think you guys realize how amazing this title is. Sometimes a title is just so simplistic and you can't believe no one else used it. I just loved that. I thought that was so interesting.

[01:14:49.560] - Emma

Sorry, go ahead. When I was doing the Mary Mollet research, I was looking at old all about romance posts, and it was people in the '90s on the internet were talking about the category style titling. It's the titles that we have now where everyone has an aristocratic title in the title. That comes from categories. We used to have books called Stormfire or Whitney My Love. All those great titles of single title books have gone by the wayside for these SEO titles is what I call them now. But that convention comes from categories, which again makes sense in categories because you're like, I'm going to read it no matter what it's called. I'm just subscribed to Cindyette, so I get four books a month or whatever. It's funny. Again, one of those things that I think when we don't talk about categories, are we them or write them off, we lose some of the history of stuff. But I'm off the topic of rapid consent.

[01:15:36.440] - Beth

We can go back to that.

[01:15:38.760] - Sara

Oh, yeah. I guess for representation, it's not a favorite book, but is. The more I talk about it, the more I love it. I'm charmed by Jessica, and I felt the couple shared some lovely, intimate moments. Would I say it has great sex worker representation? Not necessarily. But I think the choices Wolf made with her characterization of Jessica are unique and interesting to talk about. I wish we could, like Romance Landia, could move away from a rep and rec style post or whatever and move more towards helping readers find books or helping people talk about books in more interesting ways.

[01:16:15.990] - Beth

I feel like often when I'm looking for a rec, I feel like people just read such a surface thing on it. I'd be like, Hey, I want another song for my sunglasses at night. That feeling it gives me. But I think if I said that, people would just give me other 80 songs. Do you know what I mean? That's how it feels in romance. Where it's like, Oh, I really like this book. And then, Oh, it has a marriage of convenience in it. So here's 10 other books that also have a marriage of convenience. And I think it's just hard to I think if you read a really in-depth review, I could probably get sold on a book because I'm like, Oh, that's a similar feeling to what this other book gave me. I hope that makes sense.

[01:16:54.990] - Emma

I mean, that's one of the reasons why I like reading negative reviews, because I think people often... It's easier for people who are less skilled at criticism to write negative reviews. So sometimes negative reviews are more illuminative to me as a reader about what I like. I think it's a detriment of AI being integrated into our recommendation apps. Recommending a book is a skill. I don't like doing it to people that I'm not friends with because I don't know your taste. If you tell me you love marriage and convenience, well, it's like I can think of 10 marriage and convenience books that I love and 10 that I hate. That data point is not useful to me. Really? It's like, Tell me what books you like, and maybe I can get there. Or what do you want something like? But again, I only have that skill because I read all this. I couldn't do it for... The few contemporaries that I read, I would not recommend to anybody, not because I didn't like them, but because I don't have a good sense of my own contemporary taste. And so if you tell me your contemporary taste, I'm not a useful recommender for that.

[01:17:48.860] - Emma

I feel confident in recommending someone a Mary Wallach book. If they want to read one, I can tell you which one you would like. But that comes with reading a lot of books and also practicing doing it. And I think we just we underestimate it as a skill. And we think sometimes the recommendations on tropes are easy to give. But are they useful? I don't find them useful as a reader, and I don't like giving them as a recommender.

[01:18:11.900] - Beth

Yeah, I feel like my best recommendations are to my friends. And I feel like it takes me a while. It took me forever to figure out what Haley liked. I'm like, okay, I think I have a sense of it now. Or even Emma. I'm like, I feel like I could read a book and Emma would like this.

[01:18:26.050] - Sara

I also think sometimes, because sex workers are So stigmatized. I think just seeing them recommended based on the sex scenes in the book instead of like, This is what maybe is interesting, what's interesting about this book, what the author does differently from someone else. That's where I'm like, What is we doing?

[01:18:49.430] - Beth

Well, you say it's, again, the tropification of everything. Sex workers are not a fear people. That's our same argument with pregnancy. This is a person. It feels extra gross, I think, to be like, Oh, you like this book? Well, here's 10 other books like that.

[01:19:06.770] - Emma

I also think sex work... I'm biased because this really is my operating principle for my politics is centered around sex work. Sex work and being friends with sex workers is how I got to prison abolition. It is really instrumental. I think I'm often foregrounding it as part of my politics, thinking about how does this affect sex workers? How does this affect people who are highly criminalized in their work? It's both labor and criminal. It's the intersection of labor and criminalization, which I think are two things that I consider central to my politics. But with sex work, I think it is a position that a lot of people who are very well meaning and have not thought about a lot. They think that they have a handle on what they think is best for this population that they feel like they don't interact with, which is probably not true. You probably do know someone who has been a sex worker. They may not feel comfortable disclosing it to you, but you probably do know someone who has done sex work. People will think is good representation, and I read it and then I find it very thoughtless.

[01:20:07.870] - Emma

I'm trying to be neutral about that, too, but I think it reveals that this is a population that people do not think about as real people. That's what I see over and over again, that it's something that is distant and far away and not something that connects my life. It's something that happens in fiction. I think that also happens with Rex about this area People think if it's present and I like the character and she's empowered, that's good rep. It's like, That's not a meaningful distinction for me. That doesn't mean anything. I'm much more interested in, does her business model work? Does she take measures to stay safe? Those are things I'm interested in reading in a book because I know those are things that are so important to sex workers who are alive today and working.

[01:20:50.810] - Sara

Right. Yeah, exactly. So consent, romance, and sex work. I think talking about consent is good in romance. I also feel are some unintended consequences when people try to define good consent from bad, namely that certain groups of people are always left out of these discussions, see sex workers. There's a brief passage in His Lordship's mistress where Jessica thinks to herself, She was not looking forward to the coming encounter, but she told herself sternly it was certainly preferable to marriage to Harry Belton.

[01:21:23.490] - Emma

He was the guy who's blackmailing her. The blackmailing. I forgot his name multiple times. Other people kept coming up in the book and I was like, Is that the guy who's I'mmailing her and I have to go back and check his name. I was like, No, that's not him.

[01:21:32.690] - Sara

Whenever you read it, I had to write. I wrote his name down and circled it because I'm never going to remember.

[01:21:37.600] - Beth

He has a very blink-and-you-miss appearance in the book where it's like his father dies, he gets the mortgage, Jessica gets herself out of... She takes it another high interest loan to pay him off, and then we never see him again.

[01:21:53.000] - Emma

He leers at her one time, and then I was like, Is he going to come back? He doesn't. Which I guess is good. I guess it's as far as villains go, it's like, he did take no for an answer. He was like, I'm not going to try to continue to pursue you, unlike the other guy who kidnaps her.

[01:22:07.480] - Sara

Yeah.

[01:22:08.170] - Beth

I can't even remember his name right now, but to me, I'm like, Would the book had changed that much if we just took out the kidnapping? Because I feel like it just instigates the miscarriage because she falls down the stairs. And I'm like, literally, she could have just fallen down the stairs and still had a miscarriage. And I don't think much would have changed, really.

[01:22:27.330] - Sara

I suppose we get to think Philip is cool because he shot him.

[01:22:30.950] - Beth

Yes. I forgot that was in the dual.

[01:22:34.250] - Emma

The way he met with economy of plot. So much in this book happens off-scene. Like, we got a duel. I was like, We're going to have a duel, and there's going to be a scene, and Jessica's going to come to the duel. It's like, No, it happens It's a paragraph of it happening off script, which is very Shakespearean as far as drama goes. But it just was like, Okay, the duel. I thought that was going to be our third act conflict. It's like, he doesn't get hurt. He successfully shoots the guy, but doesn't kill him. And then Also, exemplary of my struggle with plots and romance, when she falls down the stairs, I was still surprised that she miscarried because I cannot telegraph a plot to save my life. I'm so bad. I feel like 300 romance levels in, and I still get surprised when things happen. I'm like, Obviously, that's what was going to happen.

[01:23:15.620] - Beth

I, to be fair, I actually respect Joan Wolf for this because she's just not precious about anything. She's just like, Oh, this is going to happen, and then this is going to happen, then this is going to happen. Lots of characters just have utility, and then they're gone. She's not bringing people back.

[01:23:30.570] - Emma

I also thought writing about the miscarriage, I thought was for how little it takes up the plot. I thought it was novel. Jessica calls the baby It, which I thought was not precious, and also is a fair way to talk. If that's how you're coping with the loss of a child or loss of a this. Jessica is upset about it, but also is very neutral about it and is mostly concerned about her own health, which I thought was novel. Again, a lot of miscarriages, it becomes this big conflict. You can feel whatever way you want about a miscarriage. Jessica was ambivalent about the prospect of being pregnant in this moment in her life. I thought, again, there was a neutrality there.

[01:24:06.050] - Beth

It was like one thing... She was going to keep it because it was going to be her last connection to Philip. I think it was more sentimental that way. I was like, Oh, I I don't ever remember this one time in my life. But you're right, it is just very matter of fact, I guess.

[01:24:21.920] - Emma

Right. Which I think makes sense for her character. It's not precious, which I liked.

[01:24:27.650] - Sara

In the doctor, even, I thought that scene because he didn't have a moral judgment on anything. He was like, Oh, she was pregnant, and she had a miskip.

[01:24:37.070] - Beth

I'm sure as a doctor, you just see... Yeah, of course. This is probably the 10th mistress you've ever seen.

[01:24:42.090] - Sara

Right. But I feel like there's times it's It's so strange. When I read all her books, I do this all the time. I'm like, I could see in a newer book where it's like, this would be the morality lesson right here.

[01:24:53.770] - Beth

No, I agree. I agree with that. That's a good point.

[01:24:57.770] - Sara

Yeah. So I have a passage to read I Don't Consent to Enthusiastic Consent by Phoenix Kalita from Working It, Sex Workers, and the Work of Sex. What began as a way to empower women, shift narratives around consent, and challenge conservative ideas around sexuality has become a weapon used to belittle, shame, and outright deny lived experiences of certain women, mainly sex workers. It has ultimately barred people like me from being able to participate in conversations around what idealistic consent versus realistic consent looks like. The anti-sex work movement wants me to view myself as nothing more than a perpetual victim without agency. Their goal is to end demand and save me from myself. Is it any wonder the people who gave us enthusiastic consent as the exclusive model of consent are also the same ones who use government crackdowns, police brutality, loss of Civil Liberties, and social stigma to save sex workers from themselves. Where we used to be victims of bad policies intended to punish sex workers, we are now victims of bad policies created to save sex workers. Sadly, under both models, sex workers are seen as inferior, incapable, and undeserving of autonomy.

[01:26:13.050] - Emma

This speaks about paternalism about how people talk about sex work. Again, I think enthusiastic consent is a useful model to some people, but the bright line of it is not... Sex workers will say it's not useful. Have you read the piece by Laura Lailee called Cash consent, Sara? Yeah. I think there's similar discussions here where it's like, this model does not work if money is being exchanged. Because the model does not work, does not necessarily mean that we need to do away with this. It's, again, Just the neutrality of like, This is our reality. This is our lived reality. Stop projecting this on us because what you're doing is ultimately endangering us. Again, I think people talk about these policies and they're like, Well, anything's better than nothing. It's like, what sex workers are saying, these policies are actually actively endangering us. So you doing something that is the wrong thing is worse. It's expecting us to follow this model that works for non-economic relationships. Again, it speaks to this assumption that sex workers can't have opinions about the policies that affect them. They don't know better, that they're not educated or they're not capable of this.

[01:27:26.420] - Emma

Again, sex workers come from all different walks of life, and some of them are incredibly educated, but also you don't have to be incredibly educated to have an opinion about a policy that affects your work.

[01:27:35.490] - Beth

I feel like, again, referencing revolting prostitutes. Looking at this quote where it's like, you have the policy one way and then it swings the other way, the power. I'm not saying a middle ground, that's not what I mean, but just a neutral ground. I think if we could recognize this cycle, we would maybe not keep doing it.

[01:27:58.300] - Emma

Just for context, the end The demand model that is in Sara's quote, the end demand model is like, I also use the phrase Nordic model earlier, that's policies where the demand for sex work is criminalized. The customers are criminalized, and so the idea is that John's clients are criminalized But sex workers are not supposed to be criminalized. In practice, what happens is that sex workers still bear the brunt of the criminalization because sex workers often work in community with each other. They help each other. Those acts of protection are often considered pimping or procurement. Also, generally in that relationship, the person who's vulnerable to the police state is the sex worker. So the John, the client, can get out of whatever charge they are dealing with while the sex worker doesn't have the resources to do so. So they are still criminalized. Also, when you end demand or make demand illegal, it makes sex work more dangerous because the person who is buying the thing is criminalized. So they won't give their real names. They won't wear protection because they know that the cops aren't going to be called. There's more violence. So this is generally just the decriminalization platform is that end demand is not a halfway measure.

[01:29:10.560] - Emma

It's a measure that is almost worse because it puts this focus on actively criminalizing something that it hurts workers more. The idea that a half measure is not actually better than a no measure.

[01:29:23.180] - Beth

I feel like we haven't. I find Philip a boring character, but mostly just because... Well, not boring, boring, but mostly he's just too perfect. I already read this quote in the plot summary, but I just wanted to quickly reference part of it again. He was at this time 27 years of age and possessed a personal presence that instantly suggested a prince in very truth, a ruler, a warrior, and patron. He has no flaws or big missteps that he has to work through with Jessica other than the necklace plot point that we talked about earlier. Even that It's all resolved fairly quickly. I don't know. So part of me feels like Wolf wrote him this way to maybe, quote, more really scrub the situation a bit. Even though he has a mistress in every part of his life, he's unimpeachable. Not that him having a mistress is a social misstep, but I also feel like you could read it as he is perfect and has a spotless reputation, so he's a lot to lose socially if he marries his mistress. But I might be wrong, but I feel like there's no scenes where he's worrying. His family does a lot worrying for him, but he's not personally worried about blowback on his family, or if he's like, Oh, should I really take this dive socially?

[01:30:39.560] - Beth

It also makes a lot of sense to me that Jessica, who's 21 and naive, falls for this perfect man. Also, I feel like for someone who's against the idea of marriage, it would maybe literally take the perfect man for you to be like, Maybe I'll reconsider. But I find Wolf doesn't allow multiple tests of this love. The main The only conflict is the conflict of a man marrying his mistress. I guess I attribute some of the non-conflict to Philip's perfectness. Lord Alden, who we talked about earlier, who kidnaps Jessica very briefly. I cannot emphasize how briefly it was. He's not a serious contender for Jessica's time or attention. He tells her at one point, Lord Alden tells her, I'll pay you double what Philip's going to… She never considers it. Although I feel like instantly he's giving a very dangerous guy vibe, so that also makes sense. Why she's like, Nope. But I also feel like maybe he's there to just highlight what a stand-up guy Philip is. So, yeah, I would love to talk about Philip. I feel like there's multiple ways we could take this.

[01:31:47.010] - Sara

I agree with something you said. As I was reading the book, Philip's Perfectness stood out to me more than the first reading. And something I considered as, Philip's characterization as a kind man, caring for his tenants and serious about his responsibilities to people in his life could help assuage any fears Jessica may have in giving up her farm easily to marry him. Jessica repeats through the book that she does not want to marry because of what happened between her mother and stepfather. She's afraid of being in the same vulnerable position to lose control over her money and property. So it's understandable to me that she would not want to be in that position again. So I think I would have prepared maybe a little more conflict or something coming from Philip's side.

[01:32:32.230] - Emma

I did like the part that... I may have thought Phil was less perfect than you all did, but his fatal flaw that I saw was in his relationship with his sister and his mother. I loved his sister, Maria, who we've not talked about yet. She's just like, I love a controlling big sister, and I love her diplomat husband. When they were like, She misses Matt so much. I was like, Did she get divorced? I was like, Where's Matt?

[01:32:54.210] - Beth

I know. I was so confused. And then we met Matt, and he was so nice. I was like, What is going on here?

[01:32:59.290] - Emma

I was like, Oh, He's at the Congress of Vienna. He's like, Okay, got it. He's gone a lot. He's gone a lot. He went to the congress way later. I was like, What's going on with Matt? He left his pregnant wife to defeat Napoleon. It's okay. So Philip is generally very easy to please. He's hard to ruffle. But Maria and his mother point out that once you push him, he's hard one to get back. I just feel like this is a personality that feels very real. Maybe I'm speaking about my own brother here. There's lines that he has that if you joke with him or push him too hard, it's a big get to get him back, but it's like he's otherwise very stable, like a very easygoing. It's probably very real. I feel like it could have been pushed even further. I think that it would have been a fruitful area of conflict if Jessica had maybe unknowingly pushed him a little far. But this feels like a different personality than we usually get. I think we usually get these grumpy, like sunshine types, like Mr. Darcy, who's just grumpy all the time, and it's like, he has to be won over by a sunshine character or a character who's a bully who has to learn to not be that way, like a rake or a rogue.

[01:33:56.620] - Emma

But we've established that Philip is not like that. Having this hard line where it's the one that's hard to reach made Philip feel very real. But I do think the political stuff is a little shoehorned. Again, this is the set dressing that I thought… It's obvious that Wolf cares a lot about this period and she wants to include it. It's all very realistic. Sometimes you read people talking about politics. Bringing Down the Duke has the worst inclusion of the Corn Laws I've ever read. The Corn Laws in this book are integrated very well and very realistically. But at one point, he independently invents the liberal Party 25 years early. Jessica was like, Why don't you join Parliament? He's like, Well, I can't be a wig. Obviously, I'm not going to be a Tori, but there's no other party for me to join. It's like, Oh, you've just preempted William Gladstone by 25 years. It's coming. I do think part of this is that the book is so short because it's a category. There's not a place for it to... For this to play out. Does he ever join Parliament? Does his marriage to Jessica mean that he to take a seat at the House of Lords.

[01:35:01.530] - Emma

We have no idea. I think Sara brought up the Duke by Gaelen Fawley earlier. There's more room for that hero, Robert, to explore what does it mean to be in Parliament. He also independently invents the liberal party in that book. He leaves the Tories, but it's set later, so it makes a little bit more sense for him to be dealing with the fallout of the Wigs and Tories, but it just has more room, too. Again, I think I'm fantasizing about what this book would be like as a single title that just had more room for conflict. She just puts in so much in there, and I don't know Philip's conflict would go. Maybe we would get rid of the kidnacle.

[01:35:33.260] - Beth

Yeah, I feel like this is good and bad because, like I said, I do like when an author is not precious about things and it's just moving the plot along. But there are, again, some things that I'm like, maybe you could have I stand it on.

[01:35:48.580] - Sara

We have 220 pages.

[01:35:50.800] - Beth

I know. It's tight. It's tight writing. I do like her actual writing, the style. I think it's underrated, maybe how hard it is to write so approachably. But yeah, I really like her style a lot.

[01:36:07.890] - Emma

Yeah. I'm excited to read more books by her. I loved her dialog. I cried, I think, three times. Which is not saying... I cry at every book.

[01:36:14.880] - Sara

I do, too. But I don't know.

[01:36:16.980] - Beth

We talked about this before, but I did want to bring up that I like the scenes between them. I understand why they like each other. I think that's, again, really hard to write in romance. They have similar politics. They have similar ideas on things. It's just they talk about things.

[01:36:34.560] - Emma

The cute of scenes are when he's getting excited about her getting excited about horses. It's good to watch him, watch her, watch the horses. I don't I don't know what that's come across as prudish, but this is like a closed-door romance. There is no sex scenes in this book. They have sex, but we don't see it at all. It's not explicit at all, which I don't think is... I'm not anti-sex scene at all in romance, but I do think there is more work to be done if you're not including the relationship being built through sex scenes, because I think sometimes that could be a shorthand for the Lisa Clapis, baseball style metaphor of removing our relationship along by going through this progress of bases or whatever. But when you don't have explicit sex scenes and you don't have that communication happening during those scenes, you have to put it somewhere else. I think sometimes that doesn't happen in categories. Sometimes you're like, Okay, why are they together? I think it's very clear in this book. Both the parts of the sex scenes we do see, the setup, it makes sense why they're having sex or what their sexual relationship is like without it being explicit.

[01:37:34.740] - Emma

I still think she does a lot of work.

[01:37:36.800] - Beth

And those scenes, I was like, Okay. I was going to say, and I'm the only one.

[01:37:40.880] - Sara

I remember the first time reading this, my ears were turning red when he's kneeling before her and removing boots. I was just like, oh, my God, this is so erotic.

[01:37:51.150] - Emma

Yeah. I mean, a good closed-door romance will not feel like a closed-door romance.

[01:37:54.870] - Sara

No, I just thought it was so sexy and internet.

[01:37:59.420] - Emma

I mean, a lot of romances with sex scenes, I'm like, This is boring. I'm just giving these scenes. Yeah.

[01:38:04.060] - Sara

Or even how they undress each other. They're not like, ripping each other's clothes off. It's like a very- Like, does the hooks. Yeah. It makes me blush a little bit thinking. So Well done.

[01:38:15.970] - Emma

I just wanted to speak about another thing that I think Wolf does really well. I think she probably would like props on this because she has her... She's studying for a PhD in comparative literature, and she has her master's. She has epigrams at the beginning of all her chapters, which were fun. I liked that they were both not the most obvious references, except she just quote Philip Marlowe's The Come Live With Me, But You I Love, We Will All My Pleasures Prove. We Will All The Pleasures Prove, which is from passionate, something to the Shepherd, his most famous poem. But the other ones are pretty obscure. Then that's of the poets that the Regency would actually have read since they were from the 16th century and in this Shakespeare revival that's going on in the 19th century. I know Beth hates literature references or just Regency authors that we read. It's like we're not getting Jane Austen epigram. We're getting John Webster Barnaviguj, which is a real name, who also had 10 children. His Wikipedia has all his children's names on it. I was like, This is bizarre for this obscure poet. Then Folk Greville, whose name I don't know how to say, but he was Sir Philip Sydney's best friend, which is important.

[01:39:13.330] - Emma

Ben Johnson, Edmund Spencer, and Sir Philip Sydney, who's my favorite 16th century poet. She's mixing plays and poems. Again, shows this skill that she has for finding these references. I also think she... I imagine she's referencing her Philip Sydney with the naming of the hero. It lets us get the epigram, Philip, the cause of all this woe, my life's constant Well from folk Greville. That's on the chapter where Jessica finally leaves Philip. That's from a poem that Greville wrote on the occasion of Philip's death when he was only 31 in battle. Sydney is best known for his sonnet cycle, Astrophil and Stella, which is 108 sonnets, and it's dedicated to a woman named Stella and her lover's name, Astrophil is a pun on his name, Philip, and that stems from the star lover, and then, of course, Stella mean star. So again, she's referencing this very famous 16th century sonnet cycle. Sir Philip was probably the most perfect Elizabethan man He was a scholar, he was a soldier. He was held up. His funeral was one of the best attended funerals in the 16th century. So again, there's a Philip reference there. And then also there's lots of Shakespeare references because Jessica's in the place.

[01:40:13.260] - Emma

So it's both the plays and to real actors, which I feel like this historical grounding is what we've lost nowadays. So Jessica is in Romeo and Juliet and Macbeth, and she watches Edmund Keen's Macbeth at a competing theater, who's a real actor. And then Jessica's star turn in celebrity seems a little bit based on Sara Siddons, who's also mentioned in the book. Siddons was maybe the first actress to achieve stardom associated with her name, linking celebrity and acting together, because she was this London phenomenon where people talked about her, even if they'd never seen her perform. Edmund Keen is like that. Jane Austen went to go see Edmund Keen perform. We started to see Jessica become this phenomenon in the book. She was on the decline in 1815 when the book is set. Her last performance was in 1816. It makes sense that Jessica is following Sara Sedan's path. There is a power vacuum of actresses in London at this time. I feel like I'm pointing these things out because when I read these older Cygnate romances, I know a homework of them is supposed to be historical accuracy. But the really good ones, I'm always delighted in how integrated the peppered-in world building is.

[01:41:11.370] - Emma

I have to mention Napoleon because he gets mentioned in this book. Even the Napoleon bit in this book, Napoleon does not play a huge part in this book at all. Because it is 1815, of course, Wolf mentions him. I'm looking at Bridget in Season 3 pointedly for not mentioning Napoleon in something set in 1815. But Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo has an effect Philip and Jessica because why would it not? It's the most important historical event that's ever happened in their lifetimes. It's pointed out that Napoleon is a major distraction for the ton about any to do about their affair. Maria points out, This is a good time for this to happen. We can move on. She says, It all depends on how you carry it off. We are able to take advantage of the situation and have people accept Jessica because of the circumstances of the world around us. It just works so well. Again, it's not that Philip goes to Waterloo and is at the battle. No one they know is injured. It just is part of their lives because she's chosen to set a book in this time period. So of course, you have to mention Napoleon.

[01:42:10.550] - Beth

Yeah. Like Emma said, I hate people just needlessly referencing literary, mostly Jane Austen, so that the reader can be like, Oh, I know Jane Austen. Do you know what I mean? It's not really adding much to the narrative. I like how the theater is integrated into this book, and it also makes a lot of sense when Jessica gives up being in the theater. And it's like such a simple line when Philip's like, Are you sure you really want to give up on this? And she's like, I grew up in the country. This is a lot of people around me all the time. And I was like, But for real? Because Because she's not going to be... I don't know how much she traveled before the start of the book, but I imagine not a ton. You know what I mean? I think even just being in London would be a little shocking.

[01:42:58.460] - Emma

She's clearly never been to Ireland. Maybe he quips her.

[01:43:04.910] - Beth

I know. I hope so. He could be like, This is your home, except it's in the Southeast. Sorry, go ahead.

[01:43:12.810] - Sara

For other Sonette releases, because I checked every chapter in A Kind of Honor begins with an epigraph taken from Shakespeare's Symboline, or Symboline. And Margarita's epigraphs include Alfred Lord-Tennison, Matthew Arnold, Robert Browning, Thomas Campion and John Keats. I checked the single-title releases I have of hers, and I didn't see any. I haven't read those yet.

[01:43:39.190] - Emma

Yeah, I mean, those are also very popular for the period references. This also drives me crazy when people sometimes the reference things that I'm like, Technically, this was published then, but then this person wouldn't have read it, and it takes me out a little bit. I read one. I think it was maybe a reference to War and Peace, Sara. It was definitely a Russian novel, but there was a book that famously wasn't translated until much later. I think it was a Russian. I can't remember if it was War and Peace, but it was a Russian book that was not available at the time. She references it, and then the author puts in the author's notes. I recognize that this was not available in translation, but I wanted her to read it. I was like, Why didn't you move the year. Move the year. You created the universe that we were occupying. It did take me out. I did notice it, and it took me out of the narrative, and you knew that that was going to happen. And then you tell me at the end of the book that you knew that it was going to happen.

[01:44:26.880] - Emma

I was like, What are we doing? You picked the year the book was set. I can't remember. It must have been War and Peace because I don't know that I know any other Russian novel well enough to have noticed that the translation grows off, but it drove me bonkers. Yeah.

[01:44:45.460] - Beth

Okay. We have enough podcast, so I'm going to end. But thank you, Sara, for joining us. This was a lot of fun. I'm hoping you will consider joining us in the future. We just have a rotating guest I guess Bayly and Haley have already come back on. I hope it will be a yearly thing. But yeah, you can find... Thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. If you'd like bonus content, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon. Com/reformedrakes. You can follow us on Twitter, Blue Sky, and Instagram for show updates. The username for all those platforms is reformedrakes, or email us at reformedrakes@gmail. Com. We love to hear from you guys. Please rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps us a lot. Thank you again. We'll see you next time.