Rants and Raves
Show Notes
Previously released as a bonus episode on patreon, Emma and Beth discuss the books they loved and hated from 2024:
Raves
The Hidden Moon by Jeannie Lin
One Burning Heart by Elizabeth Kingston
The Secret Pearl by Mary Balogh (related article by Emma “why now? why this duke?”)
A Splendid Defiance by Stella Riley
Fast Women by Jennifer Crusie
Medievals series by Madeline Hunter
Rants
Reading the Romance by Janice Radway (Longer rant by Beth “Is this 1984 romance scholarship the root of all the arguments I hate?”)
Don’t Forget to Smile by Kathleen Gilles Seidel
The Earl Takes All by Lorraine Heath
Seducing Mr. Knightly by Maya Rodale
Transcript
[00:00:00.280] - Emma
I feel like a sports team where it's like everything has to be the same or else it's bad luck. Do you know what I mean?
[00:00:05.870] - Beth
Yeah, bad luck.
[00:00:06.530] - Emma
This is like me growing out a beard for the season.
[00:00:10.590] - Beth
Yeah, play off beard.
[00:00:11.810] - Emma
Emma has to be the one to count us in. Anyway, welcome to Reformed Rakes After Dark. This episode, we're going to do what we've called Rants and Raves. So we will rant about some of the books we didn't really like, and then rave about the ones that we thought were really great. I don't think we have any books that came out this year that we liked, except for the one Burning Heart.
[00:00:35.630] - Emma
Yes. Which I think we're going to do an episode on. Yes. Because that's our goal for this season. So that's a preview for things to come back when Chels... I think Chels would kill us if we did it without them. But it was the one book from 2024 that we all read and we all liked.
[00:00:51.250] - Beth
Yeah, I'm still floored by it. This is exactly what we want out of historical romance. I think, do people generally know that Laura Kinsale mentors Elizabeth Kingston?
[00:01:03.380] - Emma
I don't know. I just don't see people talking about Elizabeth Kingston other than people... We have been like, Please read this book. So I don't know if people know her, Laura, but yes, she has a working relationship with Laura Kinsale, and it shows, especially in the medievals, I think. I read some of her regencies before, and there was good stuff there. It was like, Oh, these are probably some of the best regencies I've been reading that have been published recently. But also I don't like regencies that have been published in the last five years as much as older regencies. I wasn't super attached to her as immediately, but then this medieval blew me out of the water. I feel like this one, especially, I feel like I could see the Kinsale influence.
[00:01:41.840] - Beth
Yeah, I feel like even from, and this is such a delight to see from her first book, The King's Man, which is good. I liked that book. And this is the fourth one in the series. The growth, even within the series, is getting better, which is nice because I feel like often the reverse happens.
[00:01:59.320] - Emma
Yeah. I don't know if that's... She publishes independently, which I think probably helps her.
[00:02:04.840] - Beth
She doesn't have a publisher. I need another book next year. And you're like, I don't have an idea, but I got bills to pay.
[00:02:10.920] - Emma
Because some of the books that I'm going to rant about, I think, were done dirty by their publishers, which is upsetting to see with authors. It's like, I want there to be a robust system for historical romance to be published. But some of these books were definitely worse based on in-house editing and lack of support, I think.
[00:02:28.600] - Beth
Right. I don't know how much we want to talk about this other than just everyone should read it. We're going to do an episode this year. Everyone should read it, yeah.
[00:02:33.830] - Emma
There will be an episode this year. You should read it. You should read the whole medieval series. And her Regencies. I mean, her Regencies are great. The medievals are like... This is the most recent book, I think, that would be in my top 20, top 10 romances. It's so good.
[00:02:51.550] - Beth
Yes. One book I would like to rave about, unsurprisingly, by Jeannie Lin, The Hidden Moon, which is the third book in the Lotus Palace series. I think I was just going through a slump. And so what I will often do is go back to an author that I know I like. I'm like, Probably we'll enjoy this book. And I guess this is just the hallmark of Jeannie Lin, where I'm like, of course, the characters are yearning for each other. The chemistry is there. The buildup is really done well. Like other Jeannie Lin books, there is a murder, but I don't even care about who got murdered other than for the machinations of the couple. It's bringing the couple together. That's the main reason for the murder, in my opinion. So the characters are Gao and Wei-wei. And if you read the other books, Wei-wei is the younger sister of Huaung, who is from the first book. She's his younger sister. She's She's put off marriage for longer than her family would like. She loves learning, and she takes that energy to tutoring her younger brother. I think Gao and Wei-wei have a run in in a previous book, but I don't remember, but who cares?
[00:04:13.020] - Beth
Because this book was so good. Yeah, I would highly recommend it.
[00:04:19.850] - Emma
Yeah, I need to read more Jeannie Lin. I really did love that book that we did. The episode on... What book did we did? The Lotus Palace?
[00:04:26.460] - Beth
No, it's the series. The Jade Temptress.
[00:04:28.830] - Emma
Jade Temptress, yes. I'm so bad with names of books. But yes, I loved that book, probably the best investigation. A lot of romance authors, I think this is also one of the books that I hated had a murder in it. I don't know if this is a brief people are getting from publishers. It's do hybrids? I think readers complain about this a lot. Hybrid romance categories. Is this good? Is this bad for publishing? Whatever. But I feel like the more and more of them were being published, and I think writing a murder mystery is very hard. I can imagine writing a romance novel. I have read enough of these. I mean, maybe if I read more murder mysteries, I would feel differently. But I can imagine having an idea for a romance novel and writing it. I cannot imagine writing a murder mystery. That is so intimidating to me. And I think it's different skill sets. When people pull it off or it doesn't distract.
[00:05:21.470] - Beth
Yeah. I don't want to say that Lin is bad at writing murder mysteries. I think she's very good, but I think she's also very good at writing romance. So I just am more invested in the romance, and I see the mystery more as like, this is what bringing... Is what's bringing our couple together. Whereas it's not like a page-turner mystery where I'm like, Okay, I can't go to sleep until I know who the murderer is because I think it's this person, but it might not be that person. It's not the same reading experience, but I don't want to say that it's less than. It's a different- Yeah.
[00:05:53.480] - Emma
Thinking about The Jade Temptress, it almost works like a historical coworker.
[00:05:57.830] - Beth
Yeah (laughing).
[00:05:58.570] - Emma
Like romance Because it's less about who did it and more like, Oh, we're going to work on a task together. It's like a group project for them to work together. So maybe that's why it works for her. She is less interested in the mystery of it. Because I feel like so often when I read mysteries, and this is why one of the reasons I don't read mysteries or detective novels, is that it's like, you think someone did it and then reveal someone else did it. And you're like, Okay, what was I supposed to do? I didn't know. They're like, Here's the thing that would have revealed that they did it. And then you're like, Okay, well, I didn't have that information because I'm reading a book.
[00:06:28.420] - Beth
I think that's a hallmark of a bad mystery. Mystery. I think that's why Agatha Christie is so good. It's because she actually did give you all the information, but she gave it in such a way that you are like, oh, of course, it's that. Now I see it. That's the point of a mystery. I think bad mystery writers are the ones where it's like, Okay, I'm now revealing this information, and that's why it's this person.
[00:06:48.850] - Emma
You just lied to me.
[00:06:49.920] - Beth
Yeah, that's bad writing.
[00:06:52.510] - Emma
It's like Agatha Christie once in a generation talent, as far as inventing genres and stuff. Yes. I'm going to swap out one of my raves. I put books that we did episodes on my list because I just earnestly thought about, What are my favorite books this year? And then I didn't think about the fact that our listeners probably listened to those episodes. So I did love Keeper of the Dream by Penelope Williamson—it's in my top five books of the year. But I'm going to swap it out for a Mary Balogh book that we've not talked about, that I did write about for my dukes project because it features a duke. So this is The Secret Pearl, which I think Chels has read. I think Chels maybe is the person who got me onto this Mary Balogh one. This is about a woman who's fallen on hard times It's her first night working as a sex worker in the city. And this man is also... His wife has been cheating on him, so he goes to the city, secures a sex worker. He doesn't realize that she's a virgin. And so he's already feeling bad about himself.
[00:07:46.180] - Emma
He's like, I don't know if I really want to do this, but this is what you do when you find out your wife is having an affair. So he goes and then he realizes she's a virgin. And he's like, Oh, my God. I wouldn't have done this, which there are problems with that a little bit, how we put value on virginity. But this is, in the universe, he's very upset with himself and also upset with her for not charging more. That's also a big discussion they have. He's like, You should be paid more for this. People would pay a lot of money for this. And she's like, I don't know how it works. This is my first night on the job. So he feels really bad about it. And he's like, I need to help this woman because I've now... I've ruined her and also not compensated her enough. So he basically makes sure that she's able to find a job, and the job is as a governance in his house for his beloved daughter while his wife is there and is cheating on him.
[00:08:33.280] - Beth
That is so fraught. I love it.
[00:08:34.970] - Emma
It's so fraught. And so Fleur is really upset. She's like, I don't want to be your mistress. And he's like, I don't want you to be my mistress. I'm not a guy who has mistresses. I just was upset about my wife cheating on me. That's not me. And Fleur has no reason to trust him. And so there's this big conflict of the guy does not understand that he has done something that will immediately be read in a distrusting light. It's like he's a very starchy, Mary Balogh duke, but he's done this one thing, and that's Fleur's only concept of him. So he doesn't understand that she doesn't trust him, but also she doesn't trust him. And so you're in both of their heads. And in my Goodreads review, I compared it to To Have It A Hold, which is one of our favorite books on the podcast, and to Sir Philip with Love, which is one of my least favorite books ever. I was like, How could you put these two books together? But the concept of a woman coming into a house that has all this fraughtness in it, which I feel like that's the Bridgerton to Sir Philip with Love, like Eloise coming in and like, there are children there, and the guy doesn't know how to be a dad.
[00:09:37.300] - Emma
The wife is out of the picture, but also it haunts the house. That's the governess aspect of it, but also the sex worker aspect of To Have and To Hold where the heroine does not trust the hero and the hero has to learn like, oh, my image of myself is also different than I thought it was because I'm now seeing myself through her eyes. So this is a book I did stay up until 2: 00 AM to finish it. I just had to know how it worked out because there was a wife there. I was like, The wife is not dead. The wife is there.
[00:10:05.150] - Beth
What happens with the wife?
[00:10:06.300] - Emma
How are they dealing with her? I actually don't remember if she dies or if they get divorced.
[00:10:11.060] - Beth
I hope divorce.
[00:10:11.780] - Emma
I think she may die. But I think in a way that was like... I think she dies, but now I can't remember. But it was a surprising turn of how it all works out. And then they also don't get married immediately. The heroine is like, We're going to take some time apart, and I'm going to make sure that this isn't an emotional thing you're doing. But it's just that perfect Balogh. They're in a house. I think being inside is really important for Balogh. And making the home. And then also the starchy duke. But also when she does emotional anguish, she does it so well, which is so weird for me to say, especially people I think you've only read her more recent books. She has this in her. This is there. It's just I think people characterize her as sexless, quiet, cozy romances. And it's like the stuff from the '90s is so different. But I think if you read the stuff from the '90s, you can start seeing that stuff, where it pops up in her later books. It was great. My relationship with Balogh is either that the books are my favorite books ever or I hate them.
[00:11:13.000] - Emma
And this is like, I just loved it. It was my favorite book that I read that was about a Duke, I think. At least that and Duke of Shadows, I think were my two top Duke books this year. I said this was from the '90s, but I think it was actually from 2005, which is still old.
[00:11:27.000] - Beth
No, it's from 1991.
[00:11:28.850] - Emma
Oh, it is? Okay. Maybe got Republished. Okay.
[00:11:30.790] - Beth
Yeah. I think, which... Yeah, it got republished in 2005. So we're both correct. We're both correct. I like what you said about how she only knows him from this one experience. And I think sometimes as people, we get it in our own heads and we are fully fleshed out and formed in our minds. And you can be like, well, of course I would never do that. But the person, they don't know that. They have-
[00:11:53.730] - Emma
Right. I like that she... Because I feel like maybe a book being written now would have it be where he would be proving to her that he's not like that. But really, the book is about him realizing, I did go hire a sex worker. This is something that I did. And so it's not that I'm a bad person because I did that or a good person because I wouldn't normally do that. It's like, these are just things that are true about me, and I'm trying to show her all these things and that she is safe and that I would not hurt her. But also I did do something that caused her harm, whether I wanted it to or not, because yes, it did change her prospects by him hiring her. And so, yeah, it's not him being like, Oh, it's misunderstanding about me being a bad guy. It's like, No, I'm just a person that has all these things that are true, and that's his journey. Because I think sometimes we're actually in the group chat, we were talking about enemies to lovers, where he's been in love with her the whole time. I love those books, but sometimes the plot is the woman has been misinterpreting the man's actions in bad faith.
[00:12:57.770] - Emma
Actually, here's all the explanations of why he was actually good the whole time. But this is one where it's like, oh, both of them have to go on journeys. I think those books can be one sided where it's like, oh, I've been projecting that bad faith onto him. And it's like, this is... Both people have to do something. So it's just great. And yeah, this is like a mean ball, is how I would characterize it. Like, mean things happen and the characters are mean to each other. And it just... It's great. Yes.
[00:13:22.540] - Beth
I love it. Okay. So one I wanted to rave about was A Splendid Defiance by Stella Reilly. It's set during the English Civil War, which is from 1642 to 1651. And Abigail is a Puritan, more just because it's the religion of her family. I don't know how deep her religious convictions are, but her brother is very religious and just rules over the family, which is made up of their mother and her twin brother or younger brother. They just are living in his house, and he's not great, the older brother. Justin, her love interest, is a royalist. He is a captain at Banbury. Banbury? I feel like the English is going to come from me. How do I pronounce this? Banbury Castle. Well, they're under siege. They meet as he gets her out of a situation I don't really remember, and then he walks her home. The thing I love about this is he doesn't even really remember her. I think that sets the tone for how this book, which is a slow burn, they slowly become friends and then they slowly become lovers. And I would say the pace of this book is, like I was talking to Emma before, cyclical in the way that a KD Casey book is paced as a baseball game.
[00:14:41.450] - Beth
This book is paced the way that war is, where it's like a lot of things are happening at once, like with battles, and then there's a huge dip and it's like nothing is happening. So it's an interesting book. It's heavier on the historical side, which I like. I think the deeper I get into my romance reading journey, I just appreciate well thought out settings so much more and how that informs character. I don't know if this is me deeply reacting to all the wallpaper romances that are coming out that I'm like, But what about the setting? How is this influencing things? So yeah, I would recommend it. I think Stella Reilly is an interesting author. I'll probably read more of hers. I have on my TBR. I I don't know a ton about English history, but it felt accurate to me. I was telling Emma. But we'll see. Someone else who maybe knows more about the English Civil War can chime in and correct me or not. But it feels like she's referencing like, troop movements and people's names that I feel like might be actual real people, but I don't know enough to know if they are.
[00:15:54.210] - Beth
But yeah, it was interesting. Interesting character study as well.
[00:15:58.920] - Emma
Yeah, I'm excited. I I'm going to read that one because that's a period that I don't think I've even seen a romance being said in, this English Civil War. I feel like it's either Tudor stuff or Regency, and it's like that 17th century stuff gets put on the back order. Okay, so my next book. We have talked I have this book on an episode, but I want to plug it again because I do think I recommended it pretty strongly in our Hold Fast episode, the one we do with Reni with the medieval. But the Julie Garwood book, I just feel like I've been singing this praises a lot because I don't like Julie Garwood. I have never connected with any of her books like this before. And so I just really loved this book so much. I actually think it does connect to the Secret Pearl by Mary Balogh, where I think what Garwood does so well in this book is... So the plot is very similar to Hold Fast, if you're listening to our Hold Fast episode. I think that author was looking at this Garwood book pretty specifically. But the heroine is newly a widow from an abusive husband.
[00:16:51.590] - Emma
And so it's a little bit different than Hold Fast, where it wasn't just a hand fasting, she was actually married. And so she's been newly a widow. Her husband has in a suspicious accident, and she's being married off to another laird. But her first husband was abusive. I think what Garwood does really well is handles the hero having period accurate understanding of what his wife owes him. And also the heroine has period accurate understanding of what she owes her husband. But that doesn't change her response to trauma and being with a new man and being with someone who's looming over her and all these things that come with her abuse. But she still It feels like it's her duty to be with this person. And so it's not like she suddenly comes around to the hero, but also she's choosing to be with him and choosing to do these wifely things with him, including having a sexual relationship with him. That feels accurate but also doesn't get swept out of the rug. It's not like he suddenly comes in and is like, Oh, I'm going to do everything the opposite of your abuser. Because sometimes they do the same things because they are both lairds who feel like their wives owe them a certain duty.
[00:17:59.380] - Emma
So it feels consistent within the world that Garwood establishes. So I liked that. And then I also felt like it was just... I don't think I've ever read a book that deals with abuse in this way. Maybe, again, to have and to hold. It's what I feel like it's that level or that's the pinnacle, and this is close to it. And just dealing with it and the revelations of information, like how when she just chooses to disclose things to her new husband, felt very organic and real in a way that was made sense for the story, but also didn't... The way she is able to have us be on both of the character's sides while they're making mistakes with each other, I thought worked really well. And also, I think because of the husband, the way that the first husband works out, that mystery of what happened to the first husband, Garwood kept me interested for the whole book, which is usually what happens with her book, because I'll read the first three-fourths, and then the last fourth, the couple will be together, and then the thing that has to be solved is a clan war.
[00:18:56.920] - Beth
Yeah, the thing you don't care about.
[00:18:58.340] - Emma
The clan war is It never actually causes more conflict with a couple. But if the husband, the circumstances, the husband's death, possibly reveal that the heroine is bigamist in this book. So it's like, Oh, that could cause a conflict because maybe they're not actually married. I I really like it.
[00:19:16.480] - Beth
I feel like it's that generation of authors, because I feel like Jenkins will be the same. So I can't remember if this book came out in the '80s or the '90s, but Jenkins will do the same thing, where it's the first three-fourths of the book. It's the couple is coming together, and then you're solving the last external conflict. And I'm like, let's just marry all this conflict together. They're not together until the end.
[00:19:40.300] - Emma
Yeah, that just makes sense. Maybe it's like a '90s convention. And I do get... I mean, I think it probably works for some readers because I think sometimes what I see romance readers want is like, oh, I want more stuff to happen when they're a couple.
[00:19:51.160] - Beth
Which is also... And I don't want to say that the way that's plotted is bad. I think I probably have read books where it's a couples did come together at that point, and I was still invested. I think it's just like any other book where it's like, sometimes it succeeds and sometimes it doesn't.
[00:20:08.700] - Emma
Yeah. And I think also probably it depends on your interest in the secondary plot. I think in Jenkins, often it's personal danger that the couple is in, which it's like that maybe keeps me more motivated. While as in Garwood, at least the ones that I've read and been like, I just don't care how this turns out, is like, how much land are we going to have? Because we're fighting a battle. And it's like, I know he's not going to die in the battle.
[00:20:28.940] - Beth
Right.
[00:20:29.720] - Emma
So it's not really a conflict. And so it's more like the personal comeuppance i feel like Jenkins often saves the villain of her book will get a comeuppance in the last act. And I want to see that happen.
[00:20:41.340] - Beth
Yeah, your final justice. One thing you mentioned I did want to touch on where you talked about her former husband and then her current husband are both lairds. And there's some, not abusive tendencies, but they both are touching on that. What does... You owe me something as a wife. And I think it's nice to add that layer, because I think too often when you have your big bad character, it's easy to put all the bad traits with that character and not allow the, quote unquote good character to have any self-reflection of being like, Oh, maybe my tendency here is veering on abusive. Maybe I am kind of like the former ex-husband. I think that's much more human and a much better way to approach writing than just to be like, No, there's not an abusive bone in his body or no bad things coming from this guy.
[00:21:40.660] - Emma
It's just not true. Yeah. That's basically what Gabriel in the book realizes is that he's like, oh, nothing would stop me from doing the same thing her ex or her first husband did other than things I know about myself. No one would be mad at me if I did the same behavior. Nobody would...
[00:21:58.530] - Beth
No one could challenge him.
[00:21:59.790] - Emma
No one could challenge me. And so it's like, why wouldn't she continue to be afraid of you? And the husband, the first husband seemed really charming, but he's abusive, and the Gabriel is cantankerous and gruff. So she's like, why wouldn't I expect him to be gruff with me? And that gruffness connects to abuse, because she doesn't know anything. And she also got married super young. I think she gets married to her first husband when she's 13 or 14. So which, again, this was a book that I saw a lot of people review. And then they said, The heroine is too stupid to live.
[00:22:32.770] - Emma
And it's like, she- I hate that phrase, but if you apply it to an abused wife who got married when she was 13, I don't think you should be able to write reviews on Goodreads.
[00:22:43.370] - Beth
Yeah. We're revoking your Goodreads pass, actually.
[00:22:47.140] - Emma
Sorry. Okay. Yeah. Another point for Saving Grace, especially if you've not connected with Garwood before, that's the one that I would recommend.
[00:22:55.870] - Beth
Okay. I read a bunch of Jennifer Crusie books, and I even talked about a few of them on Patreon. One that I didn't talk about was Fast Woman. And the reason I wanted to talk about it is because often I see people being like, I wish... Well, not... Well, sometimes I see people being like, I want books with older heroes and just like a... Okay, let me just explain the part of this book and maybe you'll understand. So Nell is 40, which is perfect. She got divorced 18 months earlier and she needs money. So she knows of this private detective, his name's Gabe, and she's like, Let me be your secretary. Nell is just a manager. She just manages things and people. And Gabe is the opposite of that. He's like his interior decorator. The stuff has been there since the '50s. Nothing was going to change. He's going to die in that office the way the furniture has been there for ever. So it's already a good conflict. But now... So Gabe's business partner, his name is Riley, and And Nell and Riley go out and they sleep together first. And that's not even that big of a deal.
[00:24:06.340] - Beth
They're still good friends after. And Gabe doesn't even really care that they slept together. Do you know what I mean?
[00:24:12.900] - Emma
I want to read the goodreads reviews of this because I feel like people probably have a conniption over it.
[00:24:18.800] - Beth
And I mean, he cares in the way that you are a business... No, you don't sleep with the secretary. Do you know what I mean? That's why he cares. He's not like... He starts to have feelings for Nell later. I don't think he cares at that point either that she slept with Riley.
[00:24:34.550] - Emma
Why would you? She's 40.
[00:24:36.230] - Emma
I know. I know. But it's like, do you know what I mean? I feel like in any other book, people would be like... Or maybe people are mad I'm not sure about this. I didn't look at the reviews, but I was like, I'm loving everything that's happening here. But it's also just very cruisy. You have a big cast of characters, and she handles it well. There's a secondary love story between Riley and Suze. I think there is also a little spot of murder in this book.
[00:25:06.640] - Emma
Yeah, it's a detective. Yeah, it sounds like a... Who's that show? The show with Matthew Rhys that they redid. He's a defense attorney, where they're investigating.
[00:25:18.070] - Beth
Perry Mason?
[00:25:19.120] - Emma
Perry Mason. Yeah. There's a Perry Mason procedural aspect.
[00:25:23.480] - Emma
I feel like it's like Perry Mason and then like, Murders in the Building. Yeah. Kind of just like, a little bit. But Crusie doing Crusie humor, the only way that she can do. I feel like it's so hard to do humor well, but maybe it's like she knows herself and what would make her laugh. And I think she just leans into that, like what she thinks would be funny. And I find it funny, too. And she's just very good at situational comedy. But yeah, I feel like I'm always recommending Jennifer Crusie, also as audiobooks. I feel like the cadence and rhythm of her books is just the best. She could have been a TV writer in another life, I think. Yeah.
[00:26:06.580] - Emma
I think this is something I don't know if we've ever talked about this on the podcast or not, but I think a very 2025, 2024, discourse point is the distinction between women's fiction and romance novels. If you look at the publishing history of Jennifer Crusie and how she's marketed as chick-lit, it's like, Okay, the term chick-lit, it's like, Oh, we've done away with that. We've lost chick-lit because it's derogatory or dismisses the work that these authors do. But when you read these books from this period of the late '90s, early 2000s, there's something there that we've lost, too. And I don't think we've lost it because we're putting these silos up. I don't think. But it's like when we bemoan things being marketed as romance that aren't romance, it's like these interesting things happen at the nexus between two things. And not necessarily the other genre, because I don't know if I view genre or like, chick-lit in women's fiction and romance as separate genres as much as overlap. It's not mystery in romance, but it's a marketing mindset thing that is different. And it's like that she's chick-lit, she's women's fiction. She's romance.
[00:27:17.910] - Emma
It's all these things together. And also, I could imagine reading a Jennifer Crusie novel where maybe there's not a happily ever after, and it's not marketed as a romance, but I still have a good time with similar cast of characters, a women's fiction, where It ends up with her being single or in her career. Because there's just all that charm there with the big cast of characters and the humor and stuff.
[00:27:38.880] - Beth
Yeah, there's just something there. I don't know. It's like an indefinable quality, but I know what you're talking about. But yeah, it's a good time. Do we want to talk about Carla Kelly?
[00:27:51.450] - Emma
Yeah, just another endorsement for Carla Kelly. We talked about her a little bit on the podcast, but she was my favorite discovery of the year, and it's hard for me to pick one book. But I wanted to put her out on the podcast because I know that quite a few of her books that are out of print, or you had to get hard copies, like vintage copies on eBay, are coming out in digital rerelease, I think in February, in March, is the date that I've seen. So just plugging her again, that if you like reading ebooks or want to look at your library or request them from your library, if you have an ebook collection at your library, they are coming. You don't necessarily have to troll on eBay anymore. But that also means that if you are an eBay troll like me, the paperbacks have gone way down in price. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, you can look for... They I was looking at maybe paying $40 for a copy of The Lady's Companion because I loved it so much. I was like, I just want this book. And then the news came out and then they were $12.
[00:28:38.230] - Emma
And I was like, perfect.
[00:28:39.230] - Beth
Oh, nice.
[00:28:40.720] - Emma
So, yes, just another endorsement for Kelly. And just categories in general. I want to read more categories in 2025 and pick up authors that nobody's names. Joan Wolf is one that I've read one before that I want to read more of. More signets. I just really loved reading all those ones for Waterloo. So I want to read more categories in 2025.
[00:28:58.310] - Beth
I'm excited for this journey. I feel like I'll benefit from it, particularly. And then did you want to talk about Madeline Hunter?
[00:29:05.680] - Emma
I put this one on the list just because this is a book that Beth gave me when I went to go visit her. So By Possession by Madeline Hunter. We've talked about Madeline Hunter once on the podcast because I made Chels read one of her regencies before because whenever I make on our Rake Recommends episodes, I always make Chels read books that I don't understand. And so the Madeline Hunter-Explain this to me. The Madeline Hunter Regency, I was like, I think there's something here that I like, but there's also something here that I don't like. I want to to Chels about it and be like, What's going on? What influences are happening here? What's making me like this or not like this? And then I was on this medieval kick, and so Beth got me Madeline Hunter medieval, which I was excited to read. I continue to read Madeline Hunter Regencies since the one that I was confused by. I was like, I did in the ultimate land. I was like, Oh, I do enjoy this book. It's just a three-star, four-star read. I loved the By Possession by Madeline Hunter so much. Something about her medieval is just magic to me.
[00:29:55.450] - Emma
I've read all these medievals last year. All the things that annoy me about or confused me about her regencies, about how she handles the politics and the ballroom stuff. That doesn't happen in medieval. There are politics there, but the way that she handles court politics is so different than Tan politics. I'm still figuring out why I feel so differently about them.
[00:30:17.130] - Beth
I have no idea. I don't know anything about her, but sometimes I wonder the first few books from an author is the books from their heart. And then maybe she really... I bet she does the regency. I'm not saying she doesn't, but maybe you're following the trend more at that point? Question mark yeah.
[00:30:35.360] - Emma
I wonder if she was encouraged to write Regencies. I think those started coming out maybe Bridgerton ears. And so it's like maybe she just was like, If you're writing historical, you should be writing Regencies. But the medievals are so special and they're so specific. What I loved about By Possession, this is one thing I loved about all the medievals I read last year, is that medieval is such a big period in time. You have so many options for where you set it. It doesn't have to be in London. People aren't behold to having things in London or Bath. The one By Possession is set during, I think it's the transition between Edward II and Edward III. There's very acute court politics that are going on at the time and really great history that I didn't know a lot about. Then I read about it and was like, Oh, she crushed it with the history for the series. I really liked it. And then I've been poking around the other medievals in that series that are tendentially connected, but they're not even all the same time period. Sometimes she'll go back 40 years and do like an uncle and an aunt, they're going to have a story.
[00:31:32.960] - Emma
So it's not like a set of siblings, which I also like.
[00:31:36.590] - Beth
Okay, so I guess rants. Yes.
[00:31:41.190] - Emma
You can start with yours and plug your substack. Because Beth is on substack now. She's been on substack, but now she's on substack.
[00:31:48.050] - Beth
It takes me a while to get things together. And I was starting and stopping so many things. And then I read reading The Romance by Janice Radway, which is an ethnography from 1984. And it filled me with so, so much rage.
[00:32:01.480] - Emma
This is the best substack. It's like, you're just so mad. You're like, I have to write something now.
[00:32:05.770] - Beth
I'm like, oh, my God. I guess the reason why it bothers me so much is because people still will... And I don't want to misrepresent. There's so much scholarship about her. There isn't a unified opinion of Janice Radway in Reading the Romance. There's a lot of differing opinions in different fields. But I would say I still see positive citations her. If you go on Google Scholar, there's 9,000 citations. And a lot of them are just people in their papers, they're writing their own ethnography, and they're referencing the history of ethnographies or being like, I'm drawing inspiration from X, Y, Z. And there'll be a reference to Radway. So there's that. And then also just throughout the romance community, I I scrolled through Twitter, reddit, random think pieces. People will still cite her as a positive thing. I feel crazy. I'm like, did any of you read this book? Because it is so condescending to romance readers. I don't know why romance readers have glommed onto it and been like, yes. I don't know. Maybe it's because she is so popular across disciplines.
[00:33:24.020] - Emma
I think that also... I think as much as people who don't read romance love to be condescending to romance readers, romance readers love it, too. We do narcissism of small differences all the time. I know we see it as historical readers, the people who read contemporaries look down on historicals. I know dark romance, there was just a think piece. I think it was... I don't know where it was. There was a think piece about dark romance and the politics of dark romance. It's like people who love romance and know how romance is spoken about at large or have a perception about how romance is spoken at large, will find some other group of romance readers and talk it down to them.
[00:33:57.130] - Beth
And be like, those are the bad people.
[00:33:58.190] - Emma
Those are the bad ones. The people who read historical, the people who read dark romance. And so it doesn't surprise me that people will maybe read this and feel like their condescension is being validated by academics.
[00:34:09.200] - Beth
So it is an ethnography of mostly women who are stay at home, like mothers, or they were married. So I don't know if people are just your usual run of the mill looking down on a mom who stays home, and she just has bad taste inherently because she's a mom. That's some part of it is what it feels like to me. I was thinking about it the other day. I'm like, why? Why? How did this get so much acclaim? But yeah, go like my substack. I'm much more eloquent there. It takes me a long time to formulate my thoughts. But, yeah, don't fall for the argument that readers aren't just projecting themselves into the romance novel while they're reading, even when an academic is telling you that about a group of readers. It's a bad argument.
[00:35:06.460] - Emma
Yeah, I'm surprised that still persist to this day. Because there are three readers whose podcast you listen to listeners who don't see themselves doing that. So we are three negative examples. And also we have a non-binary host who has talked about how they frequently see themselves in the male characters, which also, there's the Laura Kinsale essay about how it's like, actually, that's what's happening. So it's like, maybe both of these things are happening sometimes, and sometimes they never happen. And sometimes... I don't know. I think it's a weird... I also think readers are not necessarily the best people at assessing their own relationship to books. Not that they're not maybe not the best source of it. I think it is a very hard thing to do, and I think it is hard to do without a lot of practice. And I don't think necessarily every reader has that practice. And I don't know if an ethnographer is necessarily the person who's going to help them find that practice and be able to articulate their relationship to why they read romance, why they enjoy something. Because it's a skill that you practice. I've gotten better being on the podcast.
[00:36:08.820] - Emma
I've gotten better doing goodread reviews. It's a skill that you practice. And people who are just surveyed maybe don't have that skill to articulate in ways that is quantifiable. I think an ethnography is hard to do, but also because it's hard to do, you can also do it really badly.
[00:36:24.320] - Beth
I think the thesis of my argument is that like, Radway speaks over the readers. They will tell her like, Hey, I do this for relaxation, and I really like the story. I like learning about the historical settings. And she's like, Oh, well, you guys are learning so much from these books. You're probably learning conservative ideology as well. They don't know what they're even absorbing when they're learning all these things. And I just was screaming into the ether about this. But yeah, we can move on because I could rant for a while about it. We could talk about the gorilla book.
[00:37:01.700] - Emma
Okay, yes. So I read three romances. I had back surgery in end of August. And so I was like, I don't want to read any books that I want to remember, because I can't remember after the anesthesia.
[00:37:13.590] - Beth
No, I remember you, you tweeted about it and you're like, I just want to read a book that slides off my brain and I burst out laughing.
[00:37:20.710] - Emma
I don't want to read anything that was in danger of-
[00:37:25.950] - Beth
You don't want to miss the good reading experience.
[00:37:28.050] - Emma
I don't want to miss the good stuff. But I wanted to read because I was going to be supine for a week. There was this book that people, probably some of our listeners, enjoy this book because lots of people like it. I feel like Beth Chels and I are all like, we feel crazy that we do not have the same reaction to this book, and it's the Gorilla Twins book. Yes. So it's called The Earl Takes All by Loraine Heath. I don't love Loraine Heath. I read a couple of her books. I don't know if I ever actually finished one. I have never enjoyed her writing. And so that was... I am coming out to this with not great intentions as far as my relationship to the book. But I do not understand romance's relationship to this book. I think people often show it as a thing where it's like, anything can happen in a historical romance. And that's a boon of the genre, is that any plot is something that we could be interested in and have happen.
[00:38:16.650] - Emma
But this book, I just don't... This is the book where they're twin brothers, and one of them is an adventurer in Africa, and the other one is an Earl. The Earl goes to Africa to see his twin brother. The Earl is married to a woman named Julia. While in Africa, and this is all you learn in the first couple chapters, while in Africa, one of the twins dies and another one comes back. The twin who dies is the Earl. And in his dying breath, he says, Julia is pregnant. Do not let her miscarry because we need an heir so that you don't end up being the Earl. So like, go sends it back. And he pretends to be his twin brother to the pregnant wife with the intention of getting her through her dangerous pregnancy. And so that's the opening of the book, which is like, I think that plot could happen. I think that plot could be something that I'm not against that plot. However, the way that this book talks about Africa, one, is very bizarre.
[00:39:13.270] - Beth
I know. It's in Africa. There's no specific country. Also, gorillas are only in certain regions. I'm like, this would have been so easy to just pinpoint down to a certain location.
[00:39:23.210] - Emma
The idea that this person is an adventurer in Africa, it's just this... His job is colonialist. That's his job. And it's never interrogated. It's just like use... And I think that bananas aspect of the plot, using Africa as this place where anything can happen is very colonialist. It's like, what would Edward Said have to say?
[00:39:44.670] - Beth
Just have him die by a disease. I feel crazy that it had to be a gorilla attack.
[00:39:51.210] - Emma
Yeah, the death could happen in any circumstances if Lorraine Heath had this idea and wanted to run with it. But it's like, so there's this aura of, are they ever going to with the fact that this is the person's job? No, never dealt with. And then I think there's some... With that in mind, when you have that attitude going into it, I was looking for what Heath was doing with the politics of being an Earl. And one of the moments that Julia, obviously the wife, is like her husband's back and it looks like her husband, but it's like he's acting different and she's more attracted to her new husband than her old husband. And so she's like, what's going on?
[00:40:25.310] - Beth
Because he's so mean to all the tenants. He's a much more ruthless.
[00:40:29.970] - Emma
Yes, he's like an action taker. And one of his actions that he takes is that he is more commanding with the tenants. And she's like, oh, my husband, he never really took charge of the estate. And now he's really showing him the business. And this is attractive to me. And then the ending is just like... She obviously falls in love. She never really felt in love with her husband before. It was a marriage of convenience, like pleasant marriage. It wasn't abusive.
[00:40:57.720] - Beth
I feel like she did love him. But she was always attracted to Edward, because I feel like in the prologue, Edward gets a kiss from her, and she doesn't realize that it's not her husband. And that's, I think, how Lorraine Heath is setting it up, that she has never been able to tell the difference between the two of them, and that she is secretly more attracted to Edward, but she doesn't want to even admit it to herself, I guess.
[00:41:25.410] - Emma
Yeah. She loves her husband, but it's like she wasn't in love with him. And then she's like, when the twin brother comes, she's like, I'm falling in love with my husband for the first time. This is so great. But then the fallout of the reveal, I don't even remember how it gets revealed.
[00:41:39.380] - Beth
It's because he's deaf in one ear, and she whispers something in that ear, and he doesn't respond, and that's how she finds out.
[00:41:47.660] - Emma
That also feels like they would think that one through. I don't know. The two brothers were like, Which ways are we different from each other? I'm deaf in one ear.
[00:41:56.400] - Beth
I think it was just a mistake on his... He just didn't... Yeah, but no, you're right. He didn't think about it.
[00:42:01.030] - Emma
But then I felt like the emotional fallout was basically like nothing. She's mad at him, but then it's just like, I'm mad at you, but I am in love with you. And so it was all this set up. And then I was so dejected by the end of the book where I was like, I wanted there to be more there. And then the Africa thing just put a bad taste in my mouth for the whole book. And I think there are crazier romance plots that better. I think that phrase 'Gorilla Twins' does a lot of heavy lifting for the PR for this book.
[00:42:38.280] - Beth
I feel like, I've talked about this before, I think, in the group chat, where I think on a technical level, I do think Loraine Heath is a good writer, and I am interested in how she writes. But all the plot elements and how she executes them is just such a miss for me, which is why I don't like her. I do have to mention that Chels' DNF did the part when he was like, mean to the tenants. But you and I soldiered on.
[00:43:08.050] - Emma
Yeah, I just I've never read one that I was like, Oh, this is... I started a few, and I'm like, This is just not for it. Something does not click in this one.
[00:43:19.200] - Beth
Okay. One book I wanted to talk about was called Don't Forget to Smile by Kathleen Gilles Seidel. And this isn't even a bad book. I I just wanted to talk about this because I feel like the writing was really good, but the conflict, nothing. It was like Kat Sebastian's latest round of books where it's just like she's almost... Cat Sebastian is almost marketing on the fact that she doesn't do conflict anymore, which bums me out. So yeah, I guess in my head, I put her in the Cat Sebastian bucket. I haven't read any of her other books, so maybe they're more conflict-driven, but I really like the set up of this book. So Tori Duncan is a bartender in a small town in Oregon, which is a big logging town. And Joe Brigham, he used to work for the mill there, and then he goes to work for the union. So I just had never seen a union in a romance novel. I was like, Oh, this could be really interesting. How will the politics crop up in this small town? And he was surprised by his own ambitions to get higher up in the union and work at a larger scale or more big picture stuff.
[00:44:33.560] - Beth
And Tori Duncan is a former Miss America pageant type person. I don't know if she only did it on the state level, though. But that's where the title comes from, Don't Forget to Smile. And it's just like life in this small town. And when they first told each other that they loved each other, I was like, really? I think it's a bad sign if that comes out of left field. But they had been sleeping together and there was technically a relationship going on, but I was not invested in the relationship. To be fair, I think I'm optimistic for books in the future from her. I don't know if she's still writing, but me just reading into her backlist, I think there's something in there I could like. I guess I was just disappointed because I'm like, this could have been something that really worked for me. And it has really good reviews. So obviously it works for some people. But yeah, just more conflict, please.
[00:45:33.800] - Emma
Yeah, I think it's a theme that we're always asking for. Something has to happen in the book. I feel like with some romance novels, this is my worst, probably, media consumption I have it is that I never finish TV shows because once I meet the characters, I'm like, I can imagine them in every scenario. I don't need to know what happens.
[00:45:53.330] - Beth
I don't need you—I got this. (Laughter)
[00:45:54.480] - Emma
But I feel like romance, it's like I want to continue to... I want to see people in scenarios. And it's like, sometimes we're not... You're giving me character sketches and putting them next to each other.
[00:46:04.940] - Beth
Yeah.
[00:46:05.760] - Emma
And it's like that is... I understand that appeal because that's often what I do with TV shows. It's like, once I see one season of Don Draper, I'm like, Okay, this is what Don Draper would do in every conflict, which is not necessarily true. That's just how I feel. I'm like, I don't really care what happens to Don Draper. But probably because he's not falling in love. That's why I rebromance. What I want to watch people do is fall in love with conflict. But yeah, you have to have something happen. Otherwise, it's also When does the book end? I think that also happens sometimes. We get a book that's way too long. This maybe happens more with indie books. We felt that with Alice Coldbreath.
[00:46:38.810] - Beth
Yes.
[00:46:39.600] - Emma
Who we love. We want Alice Coldbreath to write good books. I know.
[00:46:42.910] - Beth
She doesn't edit her individual scenes down. I think she just writes everything, and I'm like, you need to write all of that out and then cut at least 200 pages from what you've just written. And that will be your book.
[00:46:54.740] - Emma
And it's like when her books have conflict, it's like, oh, I will continue reading this. I will put up with this habit of yours because there's conflict. But on her lower-end conflict books, it's like, okay, when are you ending this book? I don't know what... You've taken me on a ride with no end. And it's like, when is the book ending?
[00:47:13.140] - Beth
I think it's hard to And it's like the same author will have great conflict, and then in some of their other books, they don't. But it is such a skill to cultivate where you have characters do mean things to each other, but I still am sympathetic or understanding of why they do it, even when they do something maybe even very mean. But I'm like, okay, I understand where they're coming from. But some people, if it's done poorly, it would be a reason to stop the book, maybe. Yeah.
[00:47:43.340] - Emma
Okay. You've not read the book that I'm going to complain about next, the Maya Rodale.
[00:47:46.830] - Beth
No, but Maya Rodale is an enemy of mine. So.
[00:47:50.970] - Emma
Okay. So this book... Chels had read this book, and I think Chels read it early in their romance reading. And so give it a more... Not a favorable Goodreads review, but a more favorable that I felt, and I don't think Chels would give you all this way about it now. But this book is basically Bridget Jones's Diary, except there's no Colin Firth. It's like Bridget Jones has a relationship with her boss who has not been paying attention to her, and then it solves the problem. But it's basically like workplace harassment. She's an advice columnist at a newspaper, and she gives advice out, and people love her. But her boss is the editor of the newspaper, and he doesn't really care about her column. And so she asked her readers, Annabelle. She's like, Dear readers, I would like you to give me advice on how to seduce this man that I have a crush on. And London loves it. Regency London is like, Oh, my God, we're rooting for Annabelle. It's like her name is not anonymized at all. So she gets surprised when her family finds out that she's doing this. I'm like, Your name is in the paper, but whatever.
[00:48:55.200] - Emma
So she asked advice. And then the boss, he's not reading the articles. He doesn't care what's in his paper, even though part of his personality is that he is fastidious and super controlling. He doesn't read her article. That's how little he cares about this woman and her article. She starts doing all these over the top Cosmo tips of wearing a lower-cut dress. And then all of a sudden, he's like, Oh, Annabelle's tits look amazing today. That's weird. And then he will not stop talking about her breasts. And it's just like the whole book, you're waiting for the moment when Derek is Oh, I should have been paying attention to her this whole time because she's so smart. She adds so much value to this thing I care about, my newspaper. And that never really happens. And basically she's ruining herself in order to get his attention because they're still in the Regency. And so she's doing all these forward things that is getting her kicked out of her house and all these things to seduce him while he's not realizing-
[00:49:51.390] - Beth
Basically, you just relayed a contemporary plot to me.
[00:49:54.690] - Beth
Yes. But they remind her they're in the Regency.
[00:49:59.190] - Beth
Which obviously, there were people... Women have been writing for forever. That's not... It's just the way it sounds. That's just a Tuesday.
[00:50:09.900] - Emma
It's just weird. Because I think sometimes Regency authors will overblow the conservatism in the Regency period. They'll be like, Oh, a woman is in a carriage alone with a man. She's ruined. It's like, Well, that happens in Jane Austen. Emma is not ruined when she's alone in the carriage with Mr. Elton. He proposes marriage to her and people know that they're in the carriage together.
[00:50:33.610] - Beth
Yeah, they're not like...
[00:50:35.300] - Emma
Right. I think people overstate sometimes the conservatism. But then in this book, it was this level of conservatism and the reactions people are having, but also Annabelle's behavior. It's like, okay, in this regency that Maya Rodale has set up, there's a level of conservatism, and Annabelle is not acting logically in the world building that you have done. And then it gets just very bizarre. Also, I couldn't believe that it was written in 2012. That's I put the year in the notes because I was like, it's so early in this. As I was reading it, I was like, this reads to me like a 2024 book, but derogatory. I do not mean that as a compliment. I'm like, I can't believe that this book was written in 2012 because to me, it's just so symptomatic of so many problems that happen, including something that I didn't talk about with another book that I don't need to be too many rants.
[00:51:25.590] - Emma
But a big trend that I've noticed in 2024, 2023 books is very poorly edited books or very internally inconsistent books. And Derek, there'll be a line where it's like, Derek is someone who would never mess up his hair to be a... To seduce a woman. Is there some line about it? It's like, Oh, that's a rake-ish thing to do. Derek's not like that. He's too fastidious. But then I checked. I was like, he has done that already in the book, and we'll do it again later in the book. So I'm like, Who is this person? It's It's like there are all these word soup tropes in there of like, oh, like men raking their hands through their hair to be like, I feel like it's a very common like, oh, like the woman is noticing the man raking his hands through his hair, and she's attracted to him. But it's like, Oh, Derek would never do that. I was like, He's I've already done it in the book, and we'll do it later in the book. So who is this person? And felt like an editing error, which I really associate with-
[00:52:22.840] - Beth
They didn't pick up on the other instances.
[00:52:25.430] - Emma
Nobody at Avon, again, published by Avon, read through this book and thought, Oh, this is internally inconsistent within this book. It's not even a macro plotting issue. It's just you could just take out that phrase or just decide who this character is. And that happened in so many books that I picked up this year that were published in the last two or three years where scenes would feel like they would happen twice. Like lines would be said twice. Information would be told to characters twice. It's just like lazy editing. I totally understand why that happens in a drafting process. Like why you try out different things or like you forgot that you've already told this character this piece of information. And so it happens in two scenes or something. But that's why you have an editor. That's why you have an editor go through it and say, Oh, this would be more efficient if it only happened one time. Or did you mean for it to happen twice? That's bizarre.
[00:53:15.030] - Beth
I have a thought here. I was watching a video essay by Be Kind Rewind. She does a lot of old Hollywood. One of her main series is looking at a best actress category from a particular year and the two narratives of the women and then who actually wins. She's very good. She has a video essay about Clara Bow, who was from the silent film era who was the first It Girl. I didn't know anything about her. It was really interesting.
[00:53:50.510] - Emma
That term was invented by Elinor Glyn, who wrote romance novels.
[00:53:54.460] - Beth
Oh, I love that. Thank you. (Laughter) I could always rely on you for fun facts.
[00:54:00.500] - Beth
But the thing is with the movie studios, because she was such a hit and such a reliable... People would come see her regardless. They didn't invest much in making her movies that good. And that's what I feel like with romance novels sometimes. And I'm like, Coming for the publishers where it's like, I think they know that they're reliable sellers and they only want it to get good enough. They don't care. They're not going to be what you're talking about. Hey, take out this character trait, do another round of editing. They just want it to be good enough, consistent, that it will sell. That's all they care about.
[00:54:39.670] - Emma
Yeah, I mean, definitely the product of it all. And I think it's like, you can point it as in romance, and it's like, well, this is true of all products that we are currently consuming. It's fast fashion of romance novels, right? It just get it off the thing. But then it's just frustrating because it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy of all the worst things that non-romance readers say about romance, where it's like, they're Plug & Chug, they're Mad Libs, they're... Anyone can write them. Ai could write them. That's the thing. It's like, this is not... I don't think an AI could write a romance novel that I would enjoy, but an AI could write a romance novel from all these ingredients that is a passable plot, I think. We're getting to that point. But it's like, this is... I don't want to read AI romance. I also don't want to read romances that are written by humans that read AIs because They don't have this emotion behind them or care. Because that's what I associate with AI prose, is a lack of care for tone, for consistency, for how one sentence connects to another, because of how large language models form their prose is that they are just always predicting the next word.
[00:55:48.560] - Emma
So there is sometimes this lack of internal consistency. That care is what I associate with human-made art. And it's like, if that's not happening with art that I know is written by a person, it's like a book published in 2012 clearly was written by a person. It's just... This book probably was never going to be for me, but I think it could have been a much better book with support from the publisher.
[00:56:10.130] - Beth
And she would have fans, people I think, would like that book in a world where it got better editorial support. Yeah. Well, I think we can end on the note of how bad AI is. Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. Obviously, if you're listening to this, you're a beloved patron, and we think the world of you. We hope you have the best year because you deserve it.
[00:56:30.850] - Emma
Yes.
[00:56:31.450] - Beth
Okay. All right.
[00:56:33.410] - Emma
Bye!
