Private Arrangements
Show Notes
A Sherry Thomas story is built around one central conflict and then mining as much story from that conflict as possible. In her debut novel Private Arrangements, we follow Gigi and Camden who have the ideal marriage. They live separately and now after ten years Gigi wants a divorce. Camden says he’ll give her one after she gives him an heir. Their separation, sparked by an act of fraud of Gigi’s part, propels Camden into a cycle of anger against her. He refuses to forgive Gigi. Here is where Thomas shines with a couple’s attempted reconciliation and the subsequent heartache and triumphs that follow.
Books Referenced
The Luckiest Lady in London by Sherry Thomas
Ravishing the Heiress by Sherry Thomas
Not Quite a Husband by Sherry Thomas
Beguiling the Beauty by Sherry Thomas
Black Silk by Judith Ivory
Beast by Judith Ivory
Chasing Cassandra by Lisa Kleypas
Marrying Winterborne by Lisa Kleypas
Lady Gallant by Suzanne Robinson
Tempt Me at Twilight by Lisa Kleypas
Again the Magic by Lisa Kleypas
Ain’t She Sweet by Susan Elizabeth Phillips
A Woman Entangled by Cecilia Grant
Works Cited
2008 Sherry Thomas Interview about Private Arrangements
Transcript
[00:00:00.310] - Beth
Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that would jerk off at the thought of financial parity. I'm Beth. I'm a grad student, and I'm on Booktok under the name Beth Haymond Reads.
[00:00:10.090] - Chels
My name is Chels. I'm the writer of the romance newsletter The Loose Cravat, and a Book Talker under the username Chels_ebooks.
[00:00:17.350] - Emma
I'm Emma, a law Librarian, writing about justice and romance at the Substack Restorative Romance.
[00:00:22.210] - Beth
Today, we're going to be talking about one of our favorite authors, Sherry Thomas. On Goodread, someone asked Sherry Thomas, "you always create characters with such rich, full emotional lives and with great depth. With as many novels as you've written, is it a challenge to create fresh characters conflicts for each one? Where do you get ideas for your character's battles, flaws, and what comes first, or does it grow out of the plot idea? She responded, The trick is all in the specificity. People who grow up in the same house turn out to be vastly different individuals. Heck, even identical twins do not remain the same. Everybody has different stories. When When you give them the stories, you give them a history and a reference point that is different from anyone else's. As my character is always built around the conflict, they grow organically. But in genre fiction, conflict is king, and whatever baggage, flaws they bring with them must be what best serves the conflict. A Sherry Thomas story is one built around one central conflict and then mining as much story from that conflict as possible. In her debut novel, Private Arrangements, Gigi and Camden had the ideal marriage.
[00:01:30.800] - Beth
They lived separately, and now after 10 years, Gigi wants a divorce. Camden says he'll give her one after she gives him an heir. Their separation, sparked by an act of fraud on Gigi's part, propels Camden into a cycle of anger against her, refuses to forgive Gigi. Here is where Thomas shines with a couple's attempted reconciliation and the subsequent heartache and triumphs that follow. Okay, so we talk about Sherry Thomas a lot. Emma estimated probably 75% of our episodes. Why do you think that is?
[00:02:13.690] - Chels
She's the greatest to ever do it.
[00:02:15.220] - Emma
She's the greatest. Every time I read one of her books, I'm like, Nobody writes books like this. I think I said this in the group chat. I don't think I've ever started a Sherry Thomas book and not finished it that night. I never split it between two days. If I start it at 10:00 PM, I'm staying up till 4:00 AM to finish reading it. I just know this about myself. Even on reread, I was trying to slow down private arrangements so I could take notes for this episode, and I still read it in one night because I just am obsessed with them.
[00:02:44.500] - Beth
She really comes out of the gate swinging.
[00:02:46.250] - Chels
I can't believe this is her first book.
[00:02:48.100] - Emma
I can't believe this is your first book. That's wild. I think I knew that. And then as I was reading it, I was like, This can't be her first one. And then it's her first book. Wild. And what she said about Conflict is King, I think that's It's definitely not true for every author.
[00:03:02.300] - Beth
Yes. I love that she will take a concept and just follow all the logical consequences of it. The Luckiest Lady in London, that's another book in this series. And it's like the conflict conflict is this man doesn't want to be in love with his wife because his parents had a terrible marriage, so he thinks love is bad. So just mind the conflict from that. What would he do? What if he actually started falling in love? How would he react? It's amazing how much story she pulls out of these setups that she does, how much conflict she can generate.
[00:03:37.010] - Emma
Also, I think that she revisits variations of conflict a lot. I noticed that when I reread her books, that she—I thought private arrangements is a lot like Ravishing The Heiress. They're similar setups where it's like, Oh, this couple that's been married for a long time needs an heir. But the conflict is so different. They're sister novels in a lot of ways, but also the characters are so different. It's like, Okay, what would Millie and Fitz do in this situation is so different than what Gigi and Camden would do, because they're different characters. I think the thing that unites Sherry Thomas' novels across all of them is that interest in conflict. There's not a Sherry Thomas type of hero. There's not a Sherry Thomas type of heroine. It's that the thing at the center is the thing that is shared across her book.
[00:04:26.300] - Beth
I agree with that.
[00:04:28.100] - Chels
Sherry Thomas also does something that I think a lot of romance authors struggle with, which is she has this world that she's built out and these characters that all have their own little idiosyncrasies and interesting ways that they interact with each other. And she's not really looking to tell you how to feel about any of the characters in a way that I think a lot of romance authors fall into the... Because we call the romance hero, the hero. So we're like, here's the hero. Here's the heroine. Here's the villain, here's the person that we're rooting against. I know that Sherry Thomas is a huge fan of Judith Ivory. I think she's the top-rated review of Black Silk that I think she originally posted on All About Romance before she even started writing. One of her books, Beguiling the Beauty, is a rift on a Judith Ivory book. I can totally see her pulling from Ivory, specifically, in the way that she uses language and how she's I'm really interested. And I do the same thing with Sherry Thomas that I do with Judith Ivory, where every time I read a book, I write down four words that I've never heard, but just feel so beautiful in a sentence.
[00:05:41.870] - Chels
It's just like nothing short of a pleasure to read her And I think that reading Sherry Thomas is a very... I'm trying to think of a better way to say this, but it feels very human. Her characters are so interesting interesting, but they're also so messy, and she leaves loose ends, and she might not make you wrap up your feelings neatly in a way that other romance authors feel compelled to do. And because of that, you can read the same books over and over again and feel completely differently each time based on where you are with your life or how you've reflected on it. So her books just keep on giving, and it's devastating to think that she's not currently writing historical romance. Please Sherry, come back.
[00:06:29.040] - Beth
I have read the entire... I read her entire Lady Sherlock series, and it helps because it's still Sherry Thomas. I like how she sets up characters. There is a slow burn romance in that one. So that is very nice. And she is revisiting the same time period. So all these books are set in turn of the century, late 1800s. And that's the same with the Lady Sherlock series. So she's obviously very interested in this in this time period. And I like what you said, Chels. I was like, I like that. And I definitely... I remember the first time I read it, it still was a landmark book to me. But the second time I read it, I was like, why am I crying so much? And I don't cry in books. So I like having different reading experiences like that with the same book.
[00:07:17.250] - Emma
I think she really writes for her characters and not for her readers. And I think sometimes people get frustrated with that. They're like, I wanted a bigger moment. And it's like, well, think about, would that character want that big moment? And it's like, maybe not. And the conflict is between the characters. There's very little service for readers. And I think it actually makes for smarter romances a lot of the time. But also, like Ches said, you're able to reread it and the beats are different and the tension is different when you know how the ending is going to be wrapped up. It just works so well.
[00:07:53.120] - Beth
Okay. So as we always do, we'll read a plot summary so everyone can get caught up on what happens in this book.
[00:08:01.470] - Beth
The only marriage that held up to life's vicissitudes was the courteous marriage, and it was widely recognized that Lord and Lady Tremaine had the most courteous marriage of them all. The year is 1893. Lord and Lady Tremaine have been married for 10 years, and we open on Lord Tremaine, Camden, returning home after a decade of separation to respond to his wife's petition for divorce. Lady Tremaine, Gigi, finds him and asks him if he'll be a nuisance about the divorce. Gigi wishes to marry Lord Frederick, an uncomplicated man who is devoted to her. Camden counters he wants an heir from her, and if she won't, he'll name her as the adulterer in the divorce. He names two of her past lovers. Heated words are exchanged, and Camden leaves. We jump back 11 years to 1882. Gigi, an 18-year-old heiress, is engaged to the Duke of Fairford, whose estate needs a cash infusion. At a party, she meets Ms. Von Schweppenberg, who was promised to Camden Saybrooke. They wish to stay true to each other despite both having no money. Ms. Von Schweppenberg, Theodora, tells Gigi her mother doesn't improve. Two weeks after this, Gigi's fiancé gets drunk and falls off her roof to his death.
[00:09:08.820] - Beth
Back in 1893, Camden and Gigi hash out the particulars of their agreement, which is they try for one year to have a child. December, 1882. Gigi sees the man on a horse while she walks the grounds of her estate. It's Camden, now the Marquess of Tremaine, has come home from university for Christmas break. They ascertain each other's identities, and Camden says, "I apologize for my cousin. He was most inconsiderate to die before marrying you and leaving an heir." To which Gigi responds, "Man proposes, God disposes." He offers to let her ride his horse on the three-mile walk back to the house, but she declines saying she doesn't ride. As they walk back, Camden, who has inherited his cousin's debt-ridden estate, tries to negotiate a payment schedule to his favor with an interest rate in her favor. She says, I have a better idea. Why don't you marry me instead? He counters his affections are already pledged to someone else. Gigi says affections change, and that she requires only his hand and not his affection. He says she's ruthless towards herself, and Gigi shrugs it off, countering she's had fortune hunters after her since she was 14.
[00:10:14.940] - Beth
He asks her if she considers good opinion and affection a consideration for marriage, to which she replies, no. Finally, Camden says he has a different view of marriage and that he's not the right person for her. When they make it back to her home, Gigi's mother, Ms. Rowland, invites Camden over for dinner. Gigi counts on his departure because she likes him and is hurt by his rejection. But of course, the weather makes it impossible for him to leave, so he has to stay the night. Camden struggles to fall asleep. He notices that she likes him and is surprised to find he likes her in return. How could he not like a girl who called him an impoverished nobody to his face? He dozes, and when he awakened, Gigi is standing over him. She touches his hand and the trails up his to his face. He grabs her and flips her over in the bed and kisses her. Shame overwhelms him at his bad faith towards Theodora, and he releases her. Gigi scrambles off the bed, pausing to look at him before running away. The following morning, they make polite conversation, and Gigi realizes she's in love with him.
[00:11:17.970] - Beth
May, 1893. Gigi updates her lover, Freddie, on the progress of her impending divorce. Before, Gigi would have scoffed at the love of a simple, unworldly man. Yet, the only thing she saw when she looked at Freddie was the shiny goodness of his heart. She tells him as she's aged, she has come to value kindness and constancy, and she can find no better than him. December, 1882. Camden and Gigi are skipping rocks, and Camden thinks of how he's been tempted over the years by women, but no one has come close to the temptation of Gigi. But he wanted more than just to touch her. He wanted to know her. Gigi tells Camden there's nothing that won't persuade her mother that she's not a better match for him over Theodora. Camden agrees internally, but reminds himself to not abandon Theodora. He offers Gigi his horse home, and she declines, stating that she doesn't ride again. He questions this, and Gigi reveals that a disappointed fortune hunter had bribed their groom. Gigi fell twice, and the second time broke three ribs and her arm. Camden removes the horse's saddle and puts it back on the horse in front of her so she can see how safe everything is.
[00:12:25.260] - Beth
After Gigi gets on the horse, Camden distracts her with what he's studying and his love for engineering. Emboldened, Gigi gallops off and relishes in reconnecting with something she used to love. After Camden catches up with her, Gigi asks if he really wants to marry Theodora. He says he will propose when he gets her next letter. She realizes Camden doesn't know where Theodora is and hatches a plan. May, 1893. Camden walks in on a dinner party that his wife is throwing at her house. She greets him and introduces him to her friends. Of course, we get some jealousy when Camden spies Gigi speaking to a former lover of hers. After everyone leaves, she asks him if she should expect a visit from him. He says he doesn't want to upset his stomach, but to be on the lookout for future visits, and she tells him to go to hell.
[00:13:15.200] - Beth
December, 1882. Camden gets a letter from Theodora three days after Gigi's ride with the horse. She tells Camden she's married a Polish prince. Camden, fueled by lust and excitement, rushes over to Gigi's home. From Gigi's point of view, we learn she worries about Camden's discovering she forged the letter from Theodora.
[00:13:33.790] - Beth
Camden arrives and proposes to her. She says, yes, although still terrified he'll discover her fraud. For the next three weeks, they're happily engaged. He gives her a puppy, Croesus. January, 1883, Camden hears from his aunt that Theodora recently married a Duke, and not the Polish Prince from her letter. Camden starts putting two and two together. May, 1893. Camden heads to a gentleman's club in a surprise that society had changed and that people could not shut up about money these days. The other men ask how he's built his shipping business, and Camden says, luck, timing, and a wife worth her weight in gold. Camden spots Lord Wrenworth, who he knows had an affair with Gigi. They talk about the gossip around Camden's divorce. Freddie walks in and over to Lord Wrenworth and is surprised to see Camden there. Lord Wrenworth praises Freddie's art, and Camden asks if Gigi he is an admirer of his work. He says she is a great collector of art, and Camden says the next time he's in New York, he should view his collection. Freddie responds to Camden's invitation in good faith, and Camden sees what Gigi sees, a good, sincere man.
[00:14:44.890] - Beth
Freddie asks how long he'll stay in town, and Camden responds until his divorce is settled, and then pointedly says, I understand that you wish to marry my wife. And then when Freddie responds he loves her, Camden asks if he thinks love is reliable enough. After scrambling for a minute, Freddie extols her virtues, and Camden guesses he's going to say she's like the sun in the sky. Camden says, "Tell me, young man, have you ever considered that it might not be easy being married to a woman like that?" They part ways. Camden thinks to himself, "May the better man prevail." Gigi and her mother, Victoria, are having lunch. And in exasperated, Gigi explains to her mother, yet again, she's marrying Freddie, not staying with Camden, or potentially marrying the Duke of Perrin. I haven't spoken about this yet, but there's a B plot where Victoria spending all this time with the Duke of Perrin hoping that she can set him up with Gigi. Victoria says she doesn't think Freddie is good enough to carry Gigi's shoes. Gigi leaves and goes home in anger. Looking for Croesus, her dog, now 10 years old, she finds him in the conservatory with Camden.
[00:15:47.820] - Beth
As Gigi scoops up Croesus, Camden tells her he met Freddie. He says Freddie would make some woman an excellent husband. Surprised by the compliment, Gigi asks to be released from the marriage. He replies that he didn't say Freddie would make Gigi a good husband, and that Freddie worships her and he'll never see her correctly. Camden says, "Does he know you are protecting him from the truth? Does he know that a few big lies in the surface of love are nothing to you? That your strength extends to remorselessness, ruthlessness?" She spits on the floor in response and says, "I look at you and I see a man who is still stuck in 1883. Does he know that 10 years have passed? Does he know that I have moved on? That he is the relentless, ruthless one now? And do you really think that I plan to tell the man I love that I'm to be impregnated by another against my wish?" Camden says, "You make it sound so ugly, my dear. Don't you ever think I deserve to get something out of this marriage before he traipse into your happily ever after?"
[00:16:49.380] - Beth
Gigi says, "I don't know, and I don't care. All I know is that Freddie is my last chance for happiness in this life, and I will marry him if I have to turn into Lady Macbeth and destroy all who stand in my path." Camden says, "Warming up to your old tricks?" Gigi says, "How can I feel to be unscrupulous when you keep reminding me that I am?" Gigi says, She doesn't care if he throws up for the rest of the night afterwards. They're having sex that night.
[00:17:11.210] - Beth
January, 1883. Camden confronts the majordomo, Beckett, and gets him to confess that he was to look for any letters that came abroad for Camden and to meet a man twice a week and give him those letters instead. Beckett tells Camden that if he wraps the letters and leaves them under a bush, a man will pick them up at certain times. Camden fires Beckett. Camden then places letters in the designated spot, and a man picks them up and drives them to Gigi's estate. Camden's devastated. Camden wants vengeance on Gigi and decides to go ahead with the wedding, all while playing everything was all right, planning to abandon her after their wedding night. They get married and travel to the Rowland's house.
[00:17:51.480] - Beth
Camden waits in his room for their wedding night. Gigi arrives. She owns up to some nerves, and Camden's crushed she doesn't take the opportunity to come clean about what she did. He stares at her as she takes off her robe. "You bitch, he thought in a dozen languages. You prick. That was for himself. The die was cast at last. The choice finally made. The high roads would be deserted and untrod. He had embarked on the path to purgatory." They sleep together. And afterwards, Camden thinks, "there he'd done it. The most despicable act of his life." Gigi initiates again. "As he turned to her in a stupefied desire, in craving that corroded him from the inside out. He saw the enormity of his mistake. He hadn't embarked on the path to purgatory. He had knocked on the gates of hell."
[00:18:43.980] - Beth
May, 1893. Gigi prepares some birth control. Camden surprises her by stopping by her room early. They trade barbs. Camden mocks her desire for him. He refuses to turn off the light when she asks. She remembers how she used to try and entice him when he at school in Paris. He always threw her out, the last time, saying she looked like a ten-penny whore. She kept going back until she saw him admit a beautiful woman into his room. In the present, Camden says the act will only take three minutes, and it does.
[00:19:14.620] - Beth
January 1883. Gigi wakes up after the wedding night to find Camden. He's packing. She tells him she'll hurry and grab all her things. He tells her she's not coming with him. There will be no reception. He tells her he knows what she did, and he's known since yesterday. Reeling Gigi apologizes, but Camden tells her she's not actually apologizing, only apologizing because she got caught. Gigi thinks, "what's the difference?" After more hard words, it truly sinks in that Camden is dead serious. Gigi begs him not to leave her and that she loves him. "Love, he sneered. So it's love now, is it? You mean to tell me that love drove you crazed with longing, thereby smashing your moral compass and whipping you down the primrose path?" He says she doesn't know enough of unrequited love. He mentions how he responds to Theodora with her best interests in mind and not what would promote him. And then he says to her, "Because being in love does not give you any excuse to be less than honorable, Lady Tremayne."
[00:20:15.820] - Beth
May 1893. At the park, Camden thinks on how Gigi used to show up at his apartment in Paris. "The insult that she believed he'd let his penis control his mind, that if she could get him to bed, all would be forgiven. He enjoyed throwing her out, but how short-lived that enjoyment had been. The beautiful woman was someone he'd hired." He thinks on his words to Gigi. His anger had receded to anxiety, yet his pride forbade that he should give in. Gigi gives up and goes home to England. Camden gets drunk, an experience he doesn't repeat until two years later upon hearing Gigi had miscarried a few weeks after their wedding night. After a garden party, Gigi enters Camden's room, reminiscing. He sees her and shows her some of the designs for his They have sex. He utters the exact same phrase from their wedding night, and Gigi pushes him away. He tells her to wait and drapes his dressing gown on her. She says she won't thank him, and he says he's done nothing worthy of gratitude.
[00:21:12.640] - Beth
The following day, and out on business, Camden discovers Gigi has a small lending business meant to help women start their own businesses. Gigi finds out Camden followed her, so she confronts him. He swears secrecy, and she says it's not secret, only she didn't want to put women off with her title. She says she wants to give people a second chance. Camden invites her to go to Devon with him since he's dining with her mother. She agrees to go.
[00:21:40.120] - Beth
Copenhagen, July 1888. Camden's visiting relatives tell him that Gigi is in the same city. He tracks her down, gets reports on her comings and goings. Finally, he observes her from a distance. He expects to see her wretched without him, but she's happy and with friends. He thinks she doesn't need him. Later, by a canal, his mistress points something out to him and he feels someone staring at him. Gigi's on a boat, and she stands up and runs along the boat until she's standing at the front as close as they can be together while he stands outside of the canal. He thinks she still loved him, and he forgets everything. He goes to her hotel only to find out she's left Copenhagen already. Camden retreats back to what he knows, anger and pride.
[00:22:24.500] - Beth
May 1893. In the carriage up to Devon, Camden works on some papers. Gigi asks him specific engineering questions. They reminisce together. Once they arrive, Camden asks Mrs. Rowland why she never visited New York despite his repeated invitations. She says sweetly, "But don't you see my dear Lord Tremaine? I could never call him a man who would not speak to my daughter." She owns she shouldn't have written him letters either, but she falls maddingly short of perfection. Gigi is a little shocked that her mother is an ally in this matter. They have dinner. Mrs. Rowland's Duke comments on their stability, and Gigi and Camden play into it, as they always have in public. Camden relates how he built his fortune on the strength of Gigi's. Everyone goes to get ready for bed, and Gigi finds her room uninhabitable as the top room has collapsed into hers or something. Anyway, Gigi and Camden now have to share a room. They talk. Camden says she should have been patient because Theodora ended up marrying someone a month later anyway. Gigi counters by asking him why it was so important to reach financial parity with her. Camden responds by starting to remove her clothes. Gigi confesses she's been using a Dutch cap and she doesn't want to keep doing this anymore.
[00:23:37.600] - Beth
They keep going, and Camden says he'll stop as she tells him to. He removes her Dutch cap. They have sex and then sleep. The following morning, they talk about Denmark, the conciliatory. Gigi talks about how she made a fool of herself after Denmark with Lord Wrenworth, but she's come to her senses. Camden says, "I came to my senses, too, after a while. I convinced myself that what was done between us could not be undone, could never be undone." Camden says he wishes he'd caught her in Denmark, and says it's still not too late. Gigi says she's pledged to Freddie. Camden leaves the room, rejected. They talk later, and Camden says they'll know in a month if there are any consequences to their sleeping together.
[00:24:17.840] - Beth
June, 1893. A month later, Gigi wonders if she's made the right choice. Camden's angry now that she's chosen Freddie over him. He thinks Gigi's pregnant, but when they meet up at her house, he asks her if she's told Freddie, and at her baffled look, he realizes she's not pregnant and says, never mind. Gigi asks to be free of him so she can marry Freddie. Camden thinks how 10 years ago, Gigi perceived the ill suit between him and Theodora. He doesn't want her to make that decision and decides she must realize the ill suit between her and Freddie. He agrees. Gigi tries not to cry over this response and then bid each other goodbye. Gigi meets up with Freddie a few days later. They talk, and Gigi tells him she adores him, but if they got married, she'd always be hung up on Camden, and that's not fair to him.
[00:25:03.900] - Beth
September 1893. Gigi arrives in New York City, but Camden isn't home. He's out with Theodora, who he's been friends with for years now. Her husband has died. She asks him if they should get married and Camden says, I'm still hung up on Juju, and I'd be a terrible husband to you. Later that night, at a dinner party, Juju breezes into the house, much to Camden's delight. She meets all of his friends and charms them. After the dinner party, Camden races upstairs to Gigi and they have sex. They talk, and Gigi asks him if he knows he's the love of her life. He responds, "Always did. But did you know that you are the love of my life? She sets her head on his shoulder and rubbed contentedly, Now I do."
[00:25:46.090] - Beth
Okay, so the time period of this book jumps from 1880 to 1883, when Gigi and Camden first fall in meet in love, and then 10 years into the future to 1893. With the setting, we hop from England to Denmark and to the United States. Because we're almost at the turn of the century, our characters can travel further. Camden and Jiji can put entire continents between each other. I find Thomas's exploration and use of setting enhances the overall story. In 2012, Sherry Thomas did an interview with Kat Latham. She asked Sherry, "What drives you to the Victorian world?" Sherry responded, "I'm drawn less to the entirety of the Victorian world as to the turn of the century period, when the world was a very exciting and interesting place with all sorts of new technologies in place. The telephone was in use. Automobiles were beginning to appear on the streets. In fact, I'd come across an article written by a lady driver to other ladies interested in driving their own cars on how to go about it. And women were no longer thought to be out of their minds to pursue higher education. And then, of course, you contrast all that modernity against a system of etiquette and rules that are still quite antiquated in our eyes. And there is this fascinating tension I can explore. Urges of freedom against societal restraint. And how far can a woman push to live as she wished versus the box in which those around her still wanted to keep her?" I find this answer fascinating. Perhaps because Sherry Thomas draws so much conflict from her stories, it doesn't surprise me she's drawn to this particular era where, as she says, antiquated social rules and new technology meet. I don't have a good question. I just put, let's discuss.
[00:27:24.980] - Emma
It was one of the first things I noticed about Sherry Thomas. I first read Sherry Thomas two years ago, almost exactly, March 2022. I think it was one of the first authors that I read who said things at this end of the period. I remember being struck by how she uses photographs. I was like, Oh, that's so wild that so many books that I read, there's no chance for people to have photographs of each other. They come up in emotional scenes in the Fitzhugh series as well, which includes Ravishing the Heiress. But in this book, she has Cam see a photo of himself taken during the three idyllic weeks with the Gigi during the engagement. It's one of the things that jars his memory, just about just how happy he was when he was in love with Gigi. We talked about this extensively in The Ruin of Evangeline Jones episode and the history of photography and the power of candid and instant documentation that we have, that this is totally new. I love that moment because it's something that couldn't have happened in an earlier book where Camden couldn't have this vision of himself through someone else's eyes in a Regency book.
[00:28:25.800] - Emma
That's just not an option. And it's this vision of Camden without ingrained truths, which I think is something that he has to undo for a lot of the book is he thinks he's existing in one way, but actually he's something else. And so it's like, you were in love with Gigi during those three weeks, and you can see that written on his face. And then the other technology I love that, again, does not come up in read and see romances because it doesn't exist yet, is the way that they talk about impressionism throughout the book. Gigi collects all these impressionist paintings, mostly to impress Camden because he's this modern man who has modern taste in art. But Gigi doesn't get it. The This is a big reveal to her, her affair partner, Frederick, where she's like, Freddie, I don't actually like this art. It's all for Camden, which is very sweet and moving that you realize how much she's invested for Camden's sake. But I think this, again, signaling of modernity, the technology is coming through in all these different places. Impressionism is this pushing into the 20th century art and the way that they talk about these moments in time.
[00:29:26.860] - Emma
You can't have that without impressionism, but also Impressionism doesn't exist earlier than this book.
[00:29:32.110] - Chels
Yeah. So I guess when I first read Sherry Thomas, I just read all of her books in a row because I couldn't get enough. And at the time, I kept comparing her to Lisa Kleypas. I think I'm just going to have to do a disclaimer every time I say that for a while. That's how she pronounces her name. I watched her Miss America pageant, so if you're wondering. But anyways, I kept comparing her to Lisa Kleypas's Victorian romances because I was getting something out of Thomas's books about technology and industry that it was emotionally affecting me much more acutely than Kleypas. And so I spent a long time thinking about why. So that quote was really illuminating for me also, particularly when we talk about Millie from Ravishing the Heiress and Gigi in this book, because their relationships with industry has this unique push and pull with their aristocratic partners. So because there's this shift where technology is exciting, business is exciting, and you get these changes, like when Cam returns to England and suddenly everybody's talking about money and his business ventures, which would have been unheard of before then. So this change puts Gigi and Millie, who are two heiress characters that Sherry Thomas has, on more egalitarian footing with their aristocratic husbands.
[00:30:49.450] - Chels
Millie and Fitz become business partners. And then Gigi's wealth and successful business ventures are something that Cam is jealous of rather than embarrassed of or trying to stamp out of. But then Gigi and Millie are still women, and their marriage is of convenience, which I mean, I know Gigi's is not, but it also is. It has this huge impact on their lives and emotional well-being in ways that they wouldn't have to deal with if they were men of that era. So taking it back to Kleypas in Chasing Cassandra and Marrying Winterborne, which I think are not quite turn of the century. They're a little bit earlier Victorian novels. But the women have these society connections, and then the men of the stories are these big business tycoons. To her credit, Kleypas does explore the conflict of how new money isn't welcome in aristocratic circles. But to me, this is not an interesting or satisfying conflict on its own. Thomas also has this very exciting world building that fleshes out the people who make the businesses run. In particular, I love the scene in Ravishing the Heiress when Millie and Fitts are in a board meeting and they have to try to team up to manipulate the other businessmen.
[00:31:58.770] - Chels
To contrast, for Kleypas, her tycoon characters, like the heroes of these stories, have this preternatural ability to stay on top that they don't answer to anyone. It's bootstraps. It's the best man comes out ahead. But even Cam, who is in this book and who is smarter than almost everyone around him. He's good-looking. He's an aristocrat. He still needs the promise of Gigi's money to be successful. So there's no illusion that this is something that he's doing on his own. I can tell that Thomas spends a lot of time thinking about the uniquely-gendered conflict of women at the turn of the century. And I think that's what makes this so compelling for me.
[00:32:35.200] - Beth
Yeah, I agree with that. And there's this scene in the book where Camden, after he's rich, he's come back to England and he talks about how now it's fashionable for us to talk about money now when it wasn't. But he's able to talk about his business. They ask him, they're like, How do you build these yachts? Like, Oh, the most of your business comes from shipping. In a way, they don't even think Gigi is still allowed to do that, even though she actually has an interest in industry and stuff. She mentions it earlier in the book. So I think that is something that Sherry Thomas does explore quite a bit.
[00:33:09.270] - Emma
And Camden talks a lot about how there's a scene where he... I don't think I caught this the first time I read it, but he wants to work. He's getting a degree when they first get married. He's in school in Paris, and he wants to be an engineer. And then he has to reconcile the idea that running an estate is also going to be a job. It's thinking... When you read a regency, it's like, What do these people do? Technically, being a Duke, you're a steward of the land. You have people that you need to be in charge of. I'm sure they're filling their days with things, but that's not the concern of a romance novel a lot of the time. Camden has to think like, Okay, because I am unexpectedly inheriting, I'm going to be a steward of this title. How do I turn that into a job? I've grown up thinking that I'm going to have a job. How am I going to a job? And so he's this craving for work and labor that doesn't come up in Kleypas. I'm going to try and say it correctly. It feels wrong in my mouth, but I'll work on it.
[00:34:10.390] - Emma
Where it's like the industry in the later Victorian Novels from her is more like, we just need a foregone conclusion of why these people are wealthy. It's like it was that they inherited wealth, and now it's that they are good at making wealth.
[00:34:24.010] - Beth
It's a means to an end. It's like they come up from nothing, and it also shows their character and their merit as well, that they're able to make all this money.
[00:34:33.120] - Emma
We need them to have more money than God because that's what solves the problems. All the money in the world is not what's going to solve Gigi and Camden's problem. They have to have a conversation over and over and over again. The money is not the thing, but I think the connection... It's like industry, but also an individual's industry. Camden wants to do work, and Gigi also wants to do work. That's one of the reasons that they are They're attracted to each other. Is this like... Camden would not have been happy with a dispossessed gentry woman. That's like with the Von Schweppenberg. He needs a woman who's in the numbers. Gigi was right. She did nothing wrong.
[00:35:12.510] - Beth
I feel very protective of Gigi. Like I'm her older sister in something. I'm like, She's perfect. I don't know what you're complaining about.
[00:35:22.670] - Emma
You got a hot wife who all she wants is to sleep with you? Why are you so mad, Camden?
[00:35:28.660] - Beth
She needs to chill a a little bit. The other thing I like about this turn of the century is that they are able to go so far. Yes, in Regency, people travel, they go to the continent or whatever. But I don't think the United States is as much of an option to just hop on a boat and then come back. So it's this new avenue. And I feel America is maybe a better, I think we'll talk about this later, maybe a better fit for a couple like Gigi and Camden.
[00:35:58.300] - Emma
I think also the distance, this is like, we're talking maybe of the politics, because the opening of the novel is like, one couple has a perfect marriage. It's this couple who's never with each other. That also feels very late Victorian. I think if it was a century earlier, people would be like, why are they sleeping together? Why haven't they produced an air? But I think this turn of the century modernity, we're less concerned about this... Camden is already the satellite, like secondary string of people. I think they're less worried about, We need to produce an air. It's more personal that they want an air, but I think that romanticization of this marriage of convenience, that feels very Edwardian, almost, where this open marriage, it's sexy and cool, pre-war War I.
[00:36:47.080] - Beth
And they're polite to each other. It's not just that they're separate, they never say a mean word about each other.
[00:36:52.490] - Chels
That opening is so funny after reading it again. If you've read the whole thing, it's like they're polite to it. I'm like, When were they ever? But I guess it's just because they're not... They're keeping their viciousness private. Oh, my God.
[00:37:11.340] - Beth
We're going to discuss Gigi's initial harm to Camden.
[00:37:15.360] - Chels
She didn't do anything wrong.
[00:37:16.680] - Beth
I know. Perfect.
[00:37:20.930] - Emma
I get his reaction, but also...
[00:37:23.890] - Beth
It's okay. We're going to get into it. I'm going to lay out the events in the book a bit so people can to follow us. Gigi meets Theodora, who is Camden's like girlfriend, and finds her to be wishy-washy as she won't commit to an advantageous marriage or she won't commit to Camden. She won't go one way or the other. When she meets Camden, she expects him to be as spineless as Theodora, but he's not. We got some background on Camden. Despite his family having all these aristocratic ties, they're poor. By 13, Camden is running the household and his parents are ignorant of truly how bad things are financially. When he meets Theodora, they connect over this unspoken shared financial plight. Years ago, he'd come to accept, according to Theodora, a woman who couldn't make up her mind about him, whom he hadn't seen in a year and a half, opened him up to the temptations in the here and now. This makes me laugh because next he thinks "because he's reasonably good-looking and sexually restrained, this has brought out a certain, a certain subset of women to proposition him. He turned down every last one of those offers with tact and dignity when possible and ingenuity otherwise. The man of honor did not profess love for one woman while welcoming a host of others into his bed."
[00:38:41.380] - Beth
Later, Gigi boldly tells him she would be a better match, and Camden thinks that's hard to argue with, but he tells himself he can't abandon Theodora to the vagaries of fortune. Gigi realizes around page 84 that Camden is really committed to Theodora despite their connection. A few pages later, she discovers Camden will propose the next time he hears from her. This crushes all hopes of happiness for Gigi, her words, and then Gigi realizes Camden doesn't know where Theodora is. So Gigi forges the letter, and afterwards, she's terrified he'll find out. She knows what she's done is unprincipled and fraud, and that she's been too impatient. For the next several weeks, they're happy and in love. When Camden discovers the fraud the day before their wedding, at first he doesn't believe it, then this quickly turns to anger. "She had done it. For some reason, she decided that she must have him. So she had the letter forged. Of course it was her. She was by far the most devious person he had ever come across. And he, horny fool that he was, had played along ever so willingly. How immeasurable her satisfaction must have been to see him this morning, knowing that her victory was complete and that he'd melt in her hand as readily as a piece of suet. Anger, burning, icy, dark as the pits of hell, rose slowly in him until degree by degree, it had taken over every cell of his body. He clung to that anger for a dispelled pain, and it kept it at bay. Vengeance. He would have vengeance. She was willing to shell out £4,000 for him, was she? Then the lady mustn't be disappointed. She would see that he was every bit her equal in duplicity and heartlessness."
[00:40:17.500] - Beth
Gigi says she's sorry after Camden finally tells her he knows, and he answers, Is she sorry or sorry that she got caught? I mentioned Camden's connection to Theodora because it speaks a lot to who he is and his personal code of honor and how he equates love with this personal code. So when Gigi tells him that she loves him, this doesn't register as love to him. Another piece of this feeling, obviously, is that he feels duped because Gigi yanks this choice away from him.
[00:40:45.640] - Beth
So thoughts, feelings, comments?
[00:40:49.250] - Emma
This is one of the things every time I read it, I feel differently about it. Even as Beth was going through it, I was like, Oh, man, Camden thinks... I think he thinks if he abandons Theadora, he's doing it for the money. I hadn't even thought about that where it's like, I can't... That's why I think one of the reasons he can't leave Theodora for Gigi because he's like, I'll never know if I did it because I'm worried about my debts. So he's also framing it as, I'm marrying Gigi for her money, which Gigi is also self-deprecatingly framing it as. I know the first time I read it, I remember thinking Gigi's forgery was one of the worst things I've ever read anyone do in a romance, which is not true anymore. I've read a book where people do a lot of worse things. But I was really mad at her because I was like, Man, it's like you If you had waited a little bit longer, he would have come around because that's the whole thing is that Theodora does marry someone else. That's how he uncovers the fraud. But I think this time I was much more frustrated with Camden because I think marrying her is way worse of a behavior because he's only doing it to be cruel.
[00:41:46.050] - Emma
He's like, Instead of confronting her before the marriage, it's like, I'm going, How can I get back at her? The cruelest thing I can do is marry her, sleep with her, and then leave her without any context. It's like Gigi is doing something foolish selfish and reckless, but she's doing it because she thinks it's the best for them. Camden is only doing something to be mean. And by the end of the book, there's so many signs that this couple is inevitable. It's easy to feel like Camden didn't have a choice that he had to marry her because of this thing that is drawn together. But I think it's like that choice that he makes to marry her then without confronting her is so mean. But now I'm like, that's the worst thing to do.
[00:42:27.960] - Beth
Well, yeah, it's like he feels like, well, she takes his choice away, so he does in kind. He's like, Well, I'm going to get married. I'm not going to grant you an annulment. Divorce is very difficult, and we're not going to be actually married.
[00:42:39.910] - Emma
It's like, we're just going to ruin both of our lives.
[00:42:43.860] - Beth
Well, just one other thing. It's funny you mentioned that with the money, because also I feel like he's suspicious of his own lust for her. They're so horny for each other. He's questions if it's really love, which is fair. Trying to parse it out.
[00:42:57.820] - Emma
How do you know? But you can't separate Gigi from her money. She's going to come with a money.
[00:43:02.540] - Beth
For sure. Yeah.
[00:43:04.020] - Chels
I think it is funny to think about the harm as being the removal of choice because Gigi didn't succeed. Cam finds out what she did before the marriage occurs. And then he decides to go through it anyway, as you mentioned, Emma, as a punishment for Gigi. And this actually reminded me of Lady Gallant a little bit, the marriage as punishment, because now you can't get out. Ostensibly.
[00:43:30.930] - Emma
Guess what? You're going to hang out with me forever.
[00:43:32.270] - Chels
Yeah. Oh, my God.
[00:43:34.440] - Beth
And we're both going to be miserable.
[00:43:36.040] - Chels
Yeah. But it's not just that she's not forcing Cam to marry her under false pretenses, because she can't, because Cam knows what she did. Theodora is not going to be an available option to Cam at this point, regardless. It proves how irrelevant she is for the story and will continue to be for this decade long battle between Cam and Gigi. But what was his choice? His choice was like, it It was Gigi or Theodora. Gigi maybe thought she was removing Theodora from the picture, but Theodora removed herself. So it's like when you're talking about the harm is the deception, but Cam absolutely has the ability to make a choice because he knows what happened before his marriage. So when you're thinking about that. And then, yeah, like Cam, I mean, you're talking about money, how he's like... He's still not even framing it to himself as like, I'm going to be marrying you because I need your money to keep going on. He's framing it as like, Oh, you're going to buy me? Well, it's going to be the worst purchase you've ever made. And ostensibly the appeal of marrying Ares, he doesn't actually end up taking her money.
[00:44:44.590] - Chels
He does use it as leverage at the time, but it's all about punishing Gigi and retribution. And I think for me, this is why it's difficult to view Gigi's bad act as malicious when Cam ups the ante so aggressively and unnecessarily. It's not necessary because Cam doesn't have the right to be angry and to keep Gigi out of his life. It's unnecessary because Cam doesn't at any point have to marry Gigi, and Theodora was never really an option. I think it's also interesting, too, because the framing of Gigi's action as this great, almost irreparable harm is a bit different of how it is in books. Sorry to bring this back to Kleypas, but Tempt Me at Twilight, where Harry Rutledge does something very similar to get rid of Poppy's competing suitor, just to trap into the idea of you're actually going to be with me.
[00:45:31.960] - Beth
You have to marry me because you might be ruined, right?
[00:45:34.240] - Chels
I like making Gigi actually be culpable and having this be a conflict that gets away from them to the point where they can't figure out what to do with each other anymore. And it's why this book is so great and why it's so fun to talk about. But it's like, every time I've read this, I've just been like, well, was it that bad? And I think that's maybe- I think that's this time when I read it.
[00:45:55.750] - Beth
It's like, so the narrative treats Gigi's harm a lot more...It interrogates it more, I guess. Because even by the end, he was like, if you had just waited, Theodora got married a month later. And I'm like, Gigi didn't know that, though. She didn't know.
[00:46:12.260] - Emma
If you had just had a conversation before you got married.
[00:46:16.660] - Beth
His self-reflection on this is not a lot. I also like that you bring up Harry Rettledge in Tempt Me at twilight.
[00:46:25.720] - Emma
One of Kleypas' most sinister heroes. We don't talk about him enough.
[00:46:28.890] - Beth
He's bad. Yeah, he gets the other suitor out of the way. They are trying to get... He doesn't want to get married to her because of some money or something, and her whole family tries to back her up. But Harry makes it so that they can't get married, and then he compromises her, right? Am I remembering that correctly? Kind of compromises her. We're at a party, and it's like they're seeing alone together. So not like they have sex compromised, but like...
[00:46:53.960] - Chels
Yeah, he does back her into... If I'm remembering correctly, he backs her into being his mistress, and then also removes a legitimate suitor from the conversation entirely. Because she had in mind that she was going to be with someone else.
[00:47:09.140] - Emma
I think partly through lies. It's not just power even, but I think he's lying about either to the other suitor or to Poppy. But I think, isn't he embarrassed of the Hathaways? Because the Hathaways are weird and Poppy is normal. Is that that dynamic? I don't remember. But I just remember him being spoofed. He's scary because they're living in the hotel, and so he's It's one of those times with a Clipus hero where he's in charge of where she's living, and it's very stressful.
[00:47:35.240] - Beth
But it's a good contrast because, like you said, Chels, it just happens, and it's not really discussed that much in the narrative. It's bad, but it's not that bad.
[00:47:47.350] - Chels
It's not the central conflict. It's not the big... I don't think it's something that Kleypas frames as being benevolent, but it's also not... It's not something that's a huge heart-wrenching angle wish. We're not really hand wringing over poppy's lack of choices.
[00:48:04.760] - Emma
It's more like Harry knows best, and isn't he so interested in her?
[00:48:08.110] - Beth
And also he's unwilling to fully commit to her at the same time. He's really in love with her, but he also doesn't want to be in love with her. That's my remembrance of it. Anyway, while we're talking about angry characters, I want to talk about Cam a bit. Sometimes I wonder if in romance, each main character is a combination of a protagonist-antagonist, or they take turns antagonizing each other. Much of the story comes from Camden's anger and his vengeance against Gigi. He's the one perpetuating the conflict because if he ever let go of his anger, which is what happens at the end, they would be together. I think anger as a conflict works really well because it's not always rational or easy, and it is often cyclical. By the end, Camden says to Gigi, I wasn't exactly a paragon of rectitude myself, was I? I should have had the frankness to confront you, however unhappy that encounter would have been. Instead, I retreated to subterfuge and confused vengeance with justice. I feel deeply for Camden when you're technically in the right and you were hurt, but your response hurts you and the one you love, and it snowballs a bit.
[00:49:17.560] - Beth
What do we think of Camden? What do we think of his anger?
[00:49:22.500] - Emma
I never thought of Camden as a villain until I read Beth's discussion question. Then I think also it's changed in the two years since I first read this because I've read more bodice rippers. But I think the vengeance and the initial fraud that he commits on their honeymoon, and it's like, he's also committing fraud because it's like he's sleeping with her under false pretenses. That's very bodice ripper. I'm offering you one thing in order to sleep with you, but actually the situation is I'm hiding knowledge from you. And I think this may be Sherry Thomas's version of a Bodice Ripper. It feels like that false pretense is bodice ripper adjacent. And I think also here is important is that One of the reasons that Gigi is so committed to Camden is because she knows that he's not going to try to kill her. I think that's something I forget until I reread the book is that Gigi has this very deep-seated fear of men using her for her money and also just men in general, because she had a suitor who tried to kill her. It's like, this is why she's afraid of horses, because he paid the groom to make her horse dangerous for her.
[00:50:27.550] - Emma
It's a very concrete fear that she will be murdered by someone. I think it's also like, if you're a wealthy heiress. It's like once their husband has your money, if he's going to kill you, what's keeping him from doing that? That feels like a very bodice or a plot. I'm going to marry this man who's going to ruin my life because at least I know he won't kill me. Those two parts of like, I don't know if there are other elements that are trying to make it bodice-rippery, but I think thinking of Camden as halfway a villain does lend itself to that structure. Sure.
[00:51:00.440] - Beth
Yeah, I agree with that.
[00:51:02.370] - Chels
I've always thought of Cam as the villain, and I think that's also why I love him and also why Gigi loves him. This early description of him is a herald of what's to come. It says, "An excellent man, the consensus had always been, a most dutiful son, a caring brother, a faithful friend, all that in social graces too, and a streak of subterranean viciousness that had to be experienced to be believed." And this is early on, I think this is when I'm like, Oh, they're perfect for each other. It's like that viciousness is so innate in Cam, and that's also what draws him to Gigi, because you'll remember when they're flirting, Gigi is like, Yeah, I'm doing all these crazy things to get exactly what I want. And this is something that this Gigi character would be portrayed as horrible in a different romance, but Cam is into it. He's obsessed with her. He's obsessed with her. And then you get these quotes when he's in the initial heat of anger towards Gigi when he finds out what she's done.
[00:52:04.680] - Chels
"He wanted to violate her then, to assert his power over her in the crudest, foulest manner, to crush her and snuff that lovely light. It would have been malevolent, but honest to a degree. He held back because of his own reciprocal corruptness. It would have been too easy for her. Shattering, yes, but shattering all at once. He did not want that. He did not want her to recognize the beast in him. He wanted her to panic, to despair, but to still want him, still think him the most perfect man that ever lived." So yeah, when you're reading this, this is a very bodice ripper. This is very intentionally trying to hurt and destroy someone. And also because he loves Gigi, it's also important for her to still be in love with him. He has to do it in a way that's even more upsetting and hurtful to her, but won't let her move on. If he did come at her swinging in a certain way, she would be like, Why the hell would I ever want you? And then he would be out of her life, and that would be over. Everything would be done. So it's like, I know that Beth, you were grappling with Cam's harm. And I think that if you're looking at it from a perspective, at least for me, of did he grovel?
[00:53:23.020] - Chels
Did he lie prostrate for Gigi? Did he say sweet things to get her back? No, that's not not really anything that really happens in the book. But I was thinking about, too, what I feel about harm and satisfying and doing character arcs. And I was actually like, his arc reminds me a lot of Briony and not quite a husband. So yeah, which is another Sherry Thomas book. So if you remember, Briony gets cheated on by Leo, her husband, which is this initial great harm at the center of the book. But then Briony unconsciously makes their marriage a very cruel punishment for Leo through emotional warfare and creates this insurmountable distance between them before she ends up actually leaving. So Briony and Leo have both done very cruel things to each other, but in the end, reckoning with Brianne's harm is like Brianne realizing that she can't wall herself off from life if she wants love. So Cam, in this book, in the deep recesses of his mind, he has this idea of reconciliation that's entirely on his own terms. He's going to better than Gigi, richer, and then she's still in love with him. And then he swoops back into her life to show her that.
[00:54:35.920] - Chels
And this is not really how it goes. Gigi is engaged to someone else and has given up on a future with Cam, so he has to create this farce where he keeps her in his life without trying to seem desperate for her. He has to let go of that farce and make himself a bit more vulnerable if he wants Gigi back. But what looks like vulnerability for Briony, who is a reserved scientist, and what looks like vulnerability for Cam, who's devastatingly rich and handsome aristocrat are very, very different. And I think it might really not register as much for Kam in that same way.
[00:55:09.370] - Beth
No, I agree with you. It's not as if I want a devastating grovel from him to recognize all the sins he's ever done. I think I was just reading this book. I did not remember how cruel he was. And I'm very interested in how narratives talk or treat these harms. And it's It's not as if I need the narrative to explicitly tell me, Hey, this is bad. Did you know this is bad? I recently took a medieval literature class and I read a 12th century story by Marie de France. It was called Bisclavret. And it's funny because I read lots of critiques of this story, and people would read it so they would flatten it. This must mean because this author wrote this story where women get punished. That's what she thinks. Women must get punished. I'm like, Are you crazy? That doesn't mean because something happened, that's what she actually believes. It's hard to explain, but in this story, the narrator explicitly sides with this husband. The wife does some harm to the husband, but then he exacts revenge on the wife. And it's And it's just like, there'll be straight lines in the book of just like, And then the king tortured the wife.
[00:56:35.750] - Beth
And it's like, won't mention the gruesome details of maybe her screaming or blood or the bad things that would been during torture. And so lots of critics will skim over this action that happened to her just because it's not given as much weight in the narrative. Does that make sense? So that's how I feel with this book, where it's like, I don't think Sherry Thomas has to tell me, Hey, Camden is full of vengeance. He's angry. It's above and beyond. So I think it just hit me more this time as I was reading it because it was highlighting for this episode of all the things that he does to Gigi. And I'm like, Wow, this is actually a lot. This is a lot of stuff that he does to her.
[00:57:19.790] - Emma
I don't know if this is true for you, Beth, but I'm thinking about the fact that I didn't think of Cam as a villain. I think when I first read this, it was like, I think I just took I think the structure of standard romance, and I was like, Okay, this is the structure I'm going in with any book that I read, where it's like, I hadn't really conceptualized the idea that a hero could also be a villain because I hadn't read bodice ripper yet. I think maybe Chels' bodice ripper history helped them get there faster than us.
[00:57:50.090] - Beth
Yeah, I think I changed as a reader, so this time I was like, What?
[00:57:55.160] - Emma
What is going on?
[00:57:57.280] - Chels
Right.
[00:57:58.730] - Emma
So it's all those... I was like, Is this a bodice ripper? And Chels read those quotes about Cam. I was like, Obviously. How do you read those quotes? That sounds like Stormfire. He's holding her and he's like, I'm going to ruin her life. Yes. And so I was like, Yeah, I think I think it's much more clear when you open to the idea of someone that I'm rooting for to be rewarded with a happily ever after, it's also a villain. That becomes clear. You're like, Okay, now I'm open to being madder at Cam.
[00:58:31.380] - Beth
And it's okay. I think it's... I read some Goodreads reviews, and some people are understandably upset by Cam did, but I think that is supposed to be the response. We're supposed to be upset by what he does. It's not nice what he's doing.
[00:58:43.810] - Emma
I think, yeah.
[00:58:47.030] - Chels
I think also just like... Well, also, how Sherry Thomas structures it, she puts you with Gigi a lot more in the initial stages. So you're seeing Gigi's decisions, you're seeing her agonizing over her decisions, her guilt, all of these things that you... First of all, Cam doesn't know, but then by the time you get to his point of view, it's like, Yeah, I see where you're coming from, but you don't know Gigi felt really bad. And so I think Thomas gears you up to be a little bit more on Gigi's side. And I don't know if that's because romance readers can be crazy and really mean about heroines that do bad things. I honestly don't want to imply that about Thomas, because I think one cool thing that I've noticed from a lot of Thomas interviews is she's just like, I'm just writing what I want. I know readers have these wild expectations, but maybe I'm not the writer for you then.
[00:59:50.410] - Beth
Well, I think she's just interested in why characters do what they do. That seems very natural to me that Thomas would be exploring, How does she get there? What is propelling her to do this action? It makes a lot of sense to me.
[01:00:03.210] - Emma
I do think it's true. If we spent more time with Cam, Gigi... I mean, I was like, This is the worst thing anyone's ever done, but I'm obsessed with her. But I think if you were hearing it from... If Camden was perfect and unimpeachable, it be like, We all hate Gigi. Well, I wouldn't hate Gigi. I could never hate Gigi, but I could see people being very misogynistic towards her. Yes. Because people are misogynistic towards a lot of Sherry Thomas heroines. Sometimes in Good Reads reviews, people will really hate her heroines and say really terrible things about them.
[01:00:32.650] - Chels
Yeah, they can get really intense. And then I guess another thing, too. Gigi is an open book about when you're in her perspective about her feelings. There are times where she's like, Oh, I definitely want to get married to this other guy, when you're like, Okay, maybe that's not true. But Cam is also lying often through his perspective, and then he's throwing in little throw aways that you'll realize that he's lying. He's like, Oh, I can't stand her. She's the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And then he'll be like, And I notice everything about her, and I think about her all the time. I think he never stopped thinking about her. Yeah, I think the one where... I think it's when he first reunites with her in the present day, where he shows up to the house unannounced and Gigi doesn't know that he's there when she saunters in. And then she's surprised that her butler remembered something, and then he was like, Oh, I bet he's never forgotten a single thing that you've ever said to him because this is the effect that you have on men. I'm like, That's a normal thing to say about...
[01:01:40.290] - Emma
Right. Yeah, Cam is constantly... People are obsessed with her, and I was like, People? Who's people? Who's people? I'm sure she's very charming and beautiful, but people is a stand-in for me.
[01:01:54.310] - Chels
Yeah. And so it's like you have this driving anger from Cam's point view because he hasn't really worked through it yet when you're still in the story. I think only at a certain point, he admits he's like, I just didn't know what else to do. And so that's why I'm here and why I've come back.
[01:02:15.910] - Beth
Why it makes such a big deal about what happened and years add onto it. It's like, how can you just let it go so easily? Do you know what I mean? It feels like it has to be grander because you made it such a big deal. So it's not easy just to put down.
[01:02:30.900] - Chels
If all of Gigi's initial groveling didn't do anything for you, then it's like, there's literally nothing that Gigi can do. And you've made this very clear to her. And so I I mean, he does say, you'll read the quote later on, I won't spoil it. But he does say that in his mind, he returns triumphant. But I think even when he is triumphant, even when he is a very successful businessman, he can't really think of a way to turn back the clock or a way to... Because how would you explain to Gigi why you're there?
[01:03:10.160] - Beth
You're supposed to hate it. Yeah, I feel like the fact that she wonders, Why did he wait so long for me to be with someone else. But that was finally his end, finally his excuse. The reason for them to start talking again was they have to figure out if they're going to get divorced or not.
[01:03:23.600] - Emma
We talked about this in a different episode, but it's like, if you're mad at someone and time passes, but you still think they owe you an apology, but you didn't accept their first apology, how do you come back from that? That happens a lot in romance novels where it's like, he wasn't ready to accept the apology in Paris. But it's like, maybe now he is, but it's like, okay, I can't- What do you do?
[01:03:42.440] - Beth
Do you show up at her house, be like, Okay, I'm ready now. Can you apologize again?
[01:03:45.810] - Emma
I apologize for not accepting your first apology. It's like, that's so weird. Also, it'd be so embarrassing if she didn't give it again. What do you do? I mean, so Harry Thomas says a lot of this where it's like, sometimes you just need to be having sex for a while and then have conversation.
[01:04:00.420] - Beth
Honestly, it forces things to happen. It's advancing your relationship in one aspect, but the emotional part hasn't caught up yet.
[01:04:09.440] - Emma
We need to get them in the same room together for a little bit. That's the thing. They haven't seen each other in a decade.
[01:04:16.490] - Beth
Yeah. Okay. So a particular interest of mine is how characters feel about money, how it defines them, how they manage their money. I think both characters define aspects of themselves by their money. Gigi, as an heiress, never expects to fall in love and thinks her biggest draw is the fact that she's an heiress. After the death of her fiancé, she's unhappy to have people see her as, "Ms. Moneybags, again, who has a vulgar interest in commerce, the making of goods and money." Camden has no money, yet he's able to make his money by taking out loans back by Gigi's fortune. He tells her, and we've been alluding to this, and this is what it tells his favorite quote, which is why I added it. Or maybe not favorite, it's memorable.
[01:04:55.410] - Chels
It's my favorite. No, it's my favorite. Okay, favorite.
[01:04:57.030] - Beth
"I wanted to stop to jump back into your life one day, twice as wealthy as you, if possible. I imagined decadent histrionic reunions and wasted a river of sperm masturbating to these fantasies." So I don't have a good question, but just talk about money and wealth and how these people feel about it. We've already touched on it, so maybe just a little bit more.
[01:05:22.030] - Chels
I'm just so glad that you read that because I was like, How am I going to put this in as a discussion topic if that doesn't? I'll just work it every week. And then we ended up making you reference it in the opener.
[01:05:32.340] - Beth
Yeah, it's fine.
[01:05:32.340] - Emma
Asterix, talk about sperm. To do.
[01:05:35.500] - Chels
Yeah. That was just a gripping my face moment. Oh, my God, I can't believe he said that. That is so funny.
[01:05:43.520] - Emma
Just see both Chels and I both covered our eyes as Beth was reading it. It's so good, but also like...
[01:05:53.050] - Chels
This is so funny. But yeah, I guess talking about money and stuff. I think Gigi is just so interesting because I don't think she feels like she doesn't deserve love, but because she hasn't really experienced it yet by the time she meets Cam, her greatest thrill is that feeling she gets when she accomplishes spectacular feats. So for Gigi, social climbing isn't carefully chosen words like they are for a character like Kate and a woman entangled by Cecilia Grant. It's clever business maneuvers. She gets a kick out of backing this Byron-esque aristocrat into a corner, so he has no other option but to ask for in marriage. It's like ruthless capitalism as social interaction. And Cam is built the same way. You remember that quote where it's like he has this like a streak of subterranean viciousness in him that people don't really know about because he has all these social graces that are just ingrained into him. So people aren't really noticing that. But this is also why he's so drawn to Gigi. I mentioned this earlier, but in any other book, the heroine confessing to trying to force someone into marriage would be seen as a pitiable act.
[01:07:00.930] - Chels
But Cam is in awe of Gigi's cleverness. It's like a game-recognized game moment for him. And it's the same ruthlessness that makes him want to compete with his later estranged wife and use her fortune to build her own.
[01:07:14.320] - Beth
One thing I just wanted to add, as I like, Sherry Thomas does this a lot, where it's like the characters see each other for who they are. The same with Like, Luckiest Lady in London, where it's like, he knows that she's a social climber. She wears the bust enhancer. They just see each other. I feel like this is a common thread through most of Thomas's books, where it's like, they just get each other.
[01:07:38.540] - Emma
Right. It's like, even at our worst moments, who's going to know you? I know you. And that's what Cam has been saying with Gigi the all the time. It's like, Frederick is never going to get you. As sweet as he is, as good of a husband, you will be unhappy because he will never get you.
[01:07:54.330] - Chels
What's so crazy about that is that's what she was saying about Theodora. Wait.
[01:08:00.080] - Beth
So now when I was saying it, that was wrong, apparently. But when you said it, it's okay.
[01:08:07.460] - Emma
Yeah. Gigi's just smarter than you, cCamden. She just picks it up faster.
[01:08:10.970] - Beth
Exactly.
[01:08:13.210] - Emma
Poor Gigi. I love the masturbation quote. I think romance novels should talk about masturbating more. I think it's weird that they don't. It's weird that people are like, ginger about it because it's these books that have sex scenes with them. People sometimes don't reference masturbation. But I don't be like, I love masturbation scenes, but I do love when they reference it. Yes. The Ruin of Evangeline Jones is the other one that I think about. It's like a masturbation reference, and it's so dynamic and it works for them so well. So I was putting that out there. It's a part of It's part of sexual dynamics, more scenes that reference masturbation. I'm coming. That's my position now.
[01:08:51.340] - Chels
I can't believe we got you to say that in an episode. That's so funny.
[01:08:54.810] - Emma
I don't know. But Beth and I may be tied for first as far as prudishness goes.
[01:09:01.140] - Chels
What I’m the outlier, the pervert of the podcast?
[01:09:06.350] - Beth
I don't know.
[01:09:08.120] - Emma
It just makes for an interesting... Maybe it's just because it doesn't happen that often. But when it happens, I'm like... So few things make me blush in a romance nowadays, and it's like, those things still make me blush. That actually is interesting, so we should have more of them. What I think in this money aspect, I think the woman with money and man with a title is a standard formula. But I like about Thomas's moneyed heroines is that they use the money as armor. Gigi is so sure, and it's not even an insecurity. I know that she would characterize it that way, because she doesn't present her moneyedness as something she needs to move past, but she knows that money is what will get her a husband. When she sees Camden or even when she sees her first fiancé, she's like, The only reason that they might be interested in me is my money, and I have to do this dance in front of them to try and charm them into accepting my money. And it's like that's true, whether she's doing a true marriage of convenience with her first fiancé, where the husband's really his only virtue is his title, or if she's in love with Camden, she treats those fiancés as I'm literally interested in her.
[01:10:16.620] - Emma
She's like, no concept that it could be mutual. I think Millie and Ravishing the Eres is like this as well. When she's with Fitz, she's like, I know that... Which is also true. Fitz is marrying her for her money when they get married. And I I think we've referenced Ravishing the Heiress a few times now. Those books, they feel very sibling, sibling novels to me. I think you can think of private arrangements as a remarriage plot with an heir. That's the premise of them getting back together. And it's based around anger and enemies. And then Ravishing the Heiress is the remarriage plot that's based around sadness and friends. But I think money works similarly in the books just because of the moneyed heiress and the aristocratic title who's using it. I think those titled people, I think this is a theme throughout historical romance, is that people with titles don't understand the anxiety of people with money. They understand the anxiety of keeping a title going, but they never understand that outsider-ness that happens when you have money, but you're not accepted socially. I don't think Camden quite picks that up from Gigi until much later in the novel.
[01:11:22.180] - Emma
But she's so dynamic that he thinks she just fits into everywhere. It's like she's playing a game so that people accept her. She has a lot of anxiety about it.
[01:11:32.540] - Beth
She became so charming and so likable because she wasn't welcome into certain social circles that she tried so hard to get into. Obviously, marriage to Camden gives her that legitimacy that she was looking before in the first place. But I like what you're saying, comparing this to Ravishing the Heiress. I also like that they're both young. Gigi and Millie are both... Millie is 16 when she marries Fits, and Gigi is 18. I think they also haven't had any time to be like, know themselves as well? Obviously, young people know themselves, but how you interact with other people or potential romantic partners that you've had a chance for someone to see you for someone other than your money. So by the time Gigi and Camden reconnect, she's had two relationships where it is just like, I don't know if she loved those people, but at least they probably thought nicely of each other, even fondly.
[01:12:23.870] - Emma
Yeah, they didn't have access to her money.
[01:12:25.930] - Beth
Yeah, it wasn't a money-based relationship. It, It's a transaction, I guess, maybe. Well, not a transaction, but they're sleeping together, so there is a benefit for both of them. But yeah, she's young when they first get together.
[01:12:42.170] - Emma
It's a received understanding of who they are. I think both Millie's parents and Gigi's mom are trying to be practical and telling them, In order to get what we want, your money will be what gets there. It also makes sense, especially these remarriage plans. It's like the husbands come back and look at wives 10 years later, and it's like, Oh, yeah. A woman who's 28 is hotter than a woman who is 18. Yeah. Yeah, of course. She's more dynamic and more self-possessed. It's like, Yeah, that happens when you live through your 20s. Congratulations.
[01:13:15.980] - Beth
Okay, let's talk about Copenhagen. Okay. Like I mentioned in the plot summary, this comes halfway through the book in about five years after they marry. Camden discovers Gigi is in Copenhagen. He gets reports of her comings and goings. He follows her to an amusement park. He hopes she'll still love him and pine for him, yet when he sees her happy, he thinks, This woman did not need him, and he turns and walks away. And then came the encounter on the canal. So Camden's with this woman, Mrs. Allen. So she's pointing out something to him.
[01:13:52.590] - Beth
So she says, "The open window on the second story, can you see the men and the woman inside? Mrs. Allen giggled. Obligingly, Camden scanned the windows on the opposite bank until he felt the weight of someone's gaze on him. Gigi. She sat at the bow of a pleasure craft, a stone's throw away. She studied him with distressed concentration as if she couldn't quite remember who he was. As her boat glided past him, she picked up her skirts and ran along the port rail, her eyes never leaving his. She stumbled over a line in her path and fell hard. His heart clenched in alarm, but she barely noticed, scrambling to her feet. She kept running until she was at the and could not move another inch closer to him. From this, Camden realizes she still loves him and then thinks all at once. He could not even recall what had been her trespass against him. He knew only with absolute certainty that he'd been the world's premier ass for the past half decade." So he tries to chase Gigi down. He is a bouquet of wilting blue hydrangeas. I cannot pronounce it. This is her favorite flower, which is why I included it. And discovers she left her hotel in and possibly Denmark. "For the first time in his life, he felt lost, hopelessly rudderless. He could follow her to England, he supposed, but being in England would crush them all with the weight of their infelicitous history. Would remind him incessantly of why he left her in the first place. In England, neither of them could be spontaneous or forgiving. From there, he convinces himself his guardian angel watched over him to prevent their reunion. Imagine if he'd gone back to that woman he could never trust." He throws the hydrangeas in a canal.
[01:15:29.300] - Beth
What do you think this scene. What do you think of this scene? What do you think of Camden's thoughts that being in England together is a constant reminder of their failures?
[01:15:35.920] - Emma
It's so good. It feels like someone's stepping on your lung. This is when you read it. But I love the part where Cam's thoughts about Denmark, thinking in Denmark, how England makes it impossible for the reconnection. They really only have a chance outside of England. He doesn't really spin out this thought fully, what he means by that. But I think it does make sense for them, especially because their reconciliation does happen finally in America. I think both Cam and Gigi think of themselves as pragmatic modern people. Gigi is like, I'm going to do marriage and convenience right. Cam is like, I'm this modern man who loves impressionism, especially in contrast to Gigi's mother, who's so wrapped up in this title hunt that she's on. But I think because they have this classic aristocratic problem with one has money and one has a title, they can't escape that in England. They talk about what ifs. That's a frequent thing that they say to with each other is like, what if this hadn't happened or what if this other thing hadn't happened? But the big one is like, what if neither had this baggage of an estate to run or a title to catch?
[01:16:38.480] - Emma
But their connection seems so undeniable. But it's like, you can imagine what this couple would be like if he was a middle-class engineer and she was the daughter of a less successful tradesman, that they still would have been inevitably drawn together. And so, yeah, that pressure of England. I think it's like the moment England enters his mind is also when he's like, Well, maybe my Guardian Angel was looking out and maybe I just wasn't meant to be. And that's when he throws the bouquet away. I also love the thought where he's like, I guess my American mistress is going to get this necklace, and you think he gives the very gaudy diamond and ruby necklace to Mrs. Allen. But then later, he saves it for Gigi, and you don't realize that until she's wearing it later. That's like, Oh, he saved it the whole time. Mrs. Allen trying to get to the short end of the stick. She's just trying to have an affair in Copenhagen. It's like now Cam's having a panic attack.
[01:17:28.170] - Chels
Oh, my gosh. I really like how Sherry Thomas takes two ships passing in the night and then makes it literal with that, where they're seeing each other on nearby boats so that Gigi can't get to Cam. There's also the devastatingly executed scene of Cam's mistress leaning on him at the worst possible moment, erroneously signaling to Gigi that Cam has moved on. He has sexually, but not really in literally any other way. But yeah, as you mentioned, they can't reconcile in England, but they still need to return the scene of the crime and duke it out there, which makes Copenhagen all the more bittersweet. It would have been an easier path to happiness because they both had these moments of extreme vulnerability there. Gigi and chasing after Cam. She's no walls up. That's her initial reaction when she sees him is she's going to try to be as close to him as possible, and she looks devastated on her face. This is how she's reacting to him, and that is what finally moves him because he's seen her before. He saw her at Tivoli, but he was just like, Oh, okay. So it's not over. And then Cam, by finally, finally, finally attempting to reconnect with the flowers and the necklace, and he has all these...
[01:18:40.810] - Chels
He's ready to do it, but they still needed that last fight. They still needed something, I guess. Maybe just to make this a more interesting story. What do you think their marriage would have been like if they had reconciled here?
[01:18:57.620] - Emma
Yeah, I just was thinking that. I was like, I think if they had met up, they probably would have jumped each other's bones in the hotel and then gotten in another fight. They would have had interested. They would have had this sex scene where they get all their frustration out on each other, but haven't actually talked about anything. I think they need to both be mad at each other in each other's presence for longer. I can imagine Gigi thinking, Oh, Cam's apologizing. And Cam's like, Why am I not doing anything wrong? And so it's not for either of them to not really... But to let things go. I think if they caught up, they would have had sex and then not known where to go from there and not been able to have a conversation still.
[01:19:43.380] - Beth
I also like this scene Because it shows Cam's vulnerability that he still relies on that Gigi loves him. When that first scene when he goes to try and suss her out and he's like, This woman doesn't need me. How human. I feel like I would like to I think that I'm the person who could maybe just hold on to love, maybe as my partner wavers a bit. But I don't know. I think we all rely on that strength of that person reciprocating a bit. Gigi's always been so open, and she's always loved him.
[01:20:16.590] - Chels
It's just so sad. It's so sad. And then she didn't get on the ship. That was the final, God, Sherry Thomas, why did you do this to me? She was still there. She went back to the hotel, but the hotel clerk changed And he didn't tell her that Camden came. So they were both in Copenhagen together. But he had already given up. It just... Devastating. Absolutely wrecked me.
[01:20:44.020] - Beth
In the best in a possible way. Okay. There's a B plot in this book. I didn't even read it. You wouldn't know it. I didn't even read it in my plot summary. Where Gigi's mother befriends the Duke of Perrin to facilitate some marital interest Gigi. She really wants Gigi to marry a Duke. Victoria's background informs that she raised Gigi. Victoria's father was defrauded out of his money, and then her mother gets sick. So Victoria marries a rich industrialist, John Roland, to save her family's estate. Because she marries new money, she finds herself shut out of the society she'd previously been welcome in. She doesn't want that to happen to Gigi. So this is interesting motivation for Gigi, but most of Victoria's story is falling for the Duke herself, I think. I I thought it was boring, and I skipped it. But Emma saved us, actually, and read the B plot because- I was trying to do right by the book. You did great. So I think in the group chat, we were like, Yeah, B plots are boring sometimes. Why do you think that is? Or what do you just think of this B plot?
[01:21:49.830] - Chels
Yeah, there are things that I do like about it. I like getting Gigi's perspective from someone who isn't Camden. Gigi is actually a force to be reckoned with. Victoria thinking about, Oh, I was disappointed that Gigi wasn't as gorgeous as me. But then when she grew up, I was like, Oh, my God, I'm so out of my element. Everybody is drawn to Gigi. She's the most sexually exciting, thrilling woman when she walks into a room. And I'm like, Okay, this is actually confirming what Cam says, which I thought that was really interesting. It is just really difficult to care about anyone else but Cam and Gigi in the story because they're just like, They suck all the air out of the room. They're just these absolute forces of nature. It's crazy that they're the hero and the heroine. They're just too much personality. I guess as far as a secondary or a B-Plot romance goes, yeah, some authors do them every single time. I think Thomas does mostly, maybe not all of them, but a lot of hers have a secondary. Anne Stuart almost always does. Susan Elizabeth Phillips will almost always have a secondary plot.
[01:23:02.910] - Chels
My favorite is actually by someone who doesn't really do that, at least in that structure that often, which is my favorite, is, Again The Magic by Lisa Kleypas. It's so good. It's amazing. She's somehow able to make the couple, the couple so charming in their own right and give them a fully satisfying story in a way where it was like, it could work as a novella. It was just fully perfect.
[01:23:23.620] - Emma
Which is so weird for Kleypas because I think a thing we get frustrated with her is the way that she introduces the secondary couple that's going to set up the next book. And you're like, This is so weird. I can't believe that she pulls it off in that book. I'm like, Do that all the time. I don't know why she can do that more often. I know.
[01:23:38.100] - Chels
It was so good. If that's what she's capable of, I wish she would do it more often. But yeah, I guess I would need to think about it a little bit more because I could think the most affecting secondary romances for me. I think Susan Elizabeth Phillips has one in Ain't She Sweet, and I just read that recently, and I can't stop thinking about it. The secondary romance is the heroine's half-sister that she has this really intense conflict with. And so this half-sister is both heroine and antagonist. And her secondary romance is with her husband, who is the heroine's former boyfriend that she cheated on and dumped. So all of these characters are interconnected and have these crazy, complicated feelings about each other. And so whether you're reading the main romance or the secondary romance, it's all solving the problems of how do they live together, how do they go on together. And it was just pulled off so well. And it was just like, it's not a skippable. It's not skippable. It's part of the whole story. It's not just like, and here's the main story, and here's a little fun little side adventure.
[01:24:45.040] - Chels
I don't want to be mean to Thomas about this, the Duke thing. I really just think it's because she made Cam and Gigi so good. I think this probably would have been all I could think about every time I read it. I was just like, I need to get back to see what these others two are doing. I'm so sorry, but I don't want to watch you guys play a board game. I'm sorry.
[01:25:06.770] - Beth
Yeah, I agree with you. I guess I also cared more about Gigi and Victoria's relationship. Their scenes together, I wanted more of that. So it's like, if I'm having Victoria here, I'd rather it just be her and Gigi enhancing the story that way would have been my preference.
[01:25:21.130] - Emma
Yeah. That was when I reread it and I focused on... When I just have a half-time, I read it, I was like, Don't skip the B plot. It's like, that's the I enjoyed the most was having these scenes that connect Victoria and Gigi because I think it would be very easy. I think this is a big wallpaper thing. A mercenary mom who's trying to get her daughter to marry a Duke. It's like that those moms sometimes are written very cruelly. I think in the way I think when people are cool about Mrs Bennett and the way that pride and prejudiced is cool to Mrs Bennett. Having so many scenes with Victoria makes it clear why she's like this and what the utility of that single-mindedness is. And Gigi does love her mom. I think Gigi understands why her mom did what she wanted, and maybe Gigi would go about it differently, and they have different personalities. But Gigi's not... It's not a book about Gigi confronting her mom and saying, You should have let me control my life more, or something, which I think could easily be that plot or that dynamic. It's more subtle than that.
[01:26:18.990] - Emma
As far as B-Plots go- I was just going to say, I feel like everything Victoria is doing is to protect Gigi, the best way she knows about it.
[01:26:24.580] - Beth
She was like, This was my experience. I don't want this to be my daughter's experience, so I'm going to arm her the best way I can.
[01:26:30.760] - Chels
Also, Gigi fully buys in early on. Gigi is orchestrating, so you're underselling it if you're like, Oh, Victoria orchestrated these two. Gigi did the first two by herself, pretty much.
[01:26:40.890] - Beth
They're more partners in crime than the mother propelling this for—.
[01:26:45.960] - Emma
I think Victoria's relationship with Cam is important to see, but you're wondering, why is Cam keeping Gigi in his mind? It's like, well, Victoria is also... Maybe Cam doesn't want to admit that Victoria is a part of it, but she's continuing to write him, and I think it's like that's... In order to keep Gigi in his mind, it's like it's working, and he is thinking about her a lot. She's the one who reveals to Cam that Gigi is engaged again. I was just thinking about B-Plots. There is a Mary Balogh book that has a B-Plot, but actually the B-Plot is so much more interesting than the A-Plot, and it's very similar to Victoria and the Duke. It's two parents who have They've been together, and then they separated, and they have to come back together, and they're coming back together because their daughter has a fake engagement to a rake. And so they're like, We have to keep her from marrying the rake. And it's like, Well, the daughter falls in love with the rake. But it's so weird reading this Mary Balogh book because the parent plot is one of Mary Balogh's tumultuous, heart-wrenching plots.
[01:27:51.100] - Emma
And then the counterfeit betrayal plot is one of Mary Balogh's, like nothing happens. It's super light plot, but in the same book. It's It's an odd reading experience, but that is one that I do love that B plot. And it also is, ironically, I think second-chance romance. I think it's just so interesting to me. And it's like Camden and Gigi are more of a second-chance romance with Victoria and Duke, and I think maybe Thomas is trying to do a parallel there of misconnection. But I don't know what the plot would make me turn away from Camden and Gigi. I'm obsessed with them. Yeah.
[01:28:29.950] - Beth
Final thoughts. I'm glad we finally did a Sherry Thomas book. We talk about her so much.
[01:28:35.840] - Chels
It was crazy to think about. It was one of those things where we talked about it and we were like, We haven't done one? And it's like, No, we just talk about her in literally every episode. So, yeah, I think that she's... She's such an interesting writer. I am so thrilled that we have all these historical romances from her, and they're all You could do a standalone on every single one of her books quite easily. She's just an immense talent. So, yeah, I'm very pleased that we got to talk about her here, and she can rip my heart out again and again and again.
[01:29:15.510] - Emma
Yeah, I don't know if any author has such a sustained hit rate. It's like, yeah, I love every Cecilia Grant book, but she's only written three historical romance novels. I think I've read every Sherry Thomas historical romance. I haven't read the Lady Sherlock series, but I mean, it's like a range between four and a half and five stars. I love all of them.
[01:29:34.920] - Beth
Well, maybe she'll come back, but I'm not optimistic. It's fine, though.
[01:29:40.020] - Emma
I want her to write what she wants to write. If she does, we'll be the first ones there. We're ride or die. When she's ready, I'm ready.
[01:29:48.030] - Beth
She has on Goodreads talked about... It's funny because we've talked about this before where she's like, Maybe I should write a book about the children of one of my characters for World War One, because that's looming. And I'm like, Oh my God. Please, please, please, please, please, please, please. That was many years ago.
[01:30:05.110] - Emma
I would take anything from her, but I would eat that up.
[01:30:07.880] - Beth
Yeah, that sounds right up our alleys. Okay. Thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. If you'd like bonus content, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/reformedrakes. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram for show updates. Us username for both is at reformdrakes, or email us at reformdrakes@gmail. Com. We love to hear from our rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps a lot. Thank you again, and we will see you next time.
