Midsummer Moon
Show Notes
Midsummer Moon features what Kinsale calls the “hedgehog humor” of some of her lighter novels and is the origin of that label. Midsummer Moon is goofy! It does in fact feature a hedgehog, along with an aphrodisiac salt, a pre-Alexander Graham Bell invention of a telephone-like device, an inventor heroine named Merlin and a Duke with so many names that Merlin lands on calling him “Mister Duke” most of the time. Midsummer Moon might sound kooky, and it is, but it still comes with typical Kinsale character driven gut emotional punches that we love so much here. Kinsale’s strength comes from complex characters who, in a genre full of tropes and iterations and reiterations, are singular.
Books Referenced
Tempting the Bride by Sherry Thomas
Day of the Duchess by Sarah MacLean
The Viscount Who Loved Me by Julia Quinn
The Countess Conspiracy by Courtney Milan
Flowers From the Storm by Laura Kinsale
Someone to Watch Over Me by Lisa Kleypas
Kiss an Angel by Susan Elizabeth Philips
A Lady’s Code of Misconduct by Meredith Duran
Works Cited:
Transcript
Emma
Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that would curl into a ball if you touch its belly. I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the substack restorative romance.
Beth
I'm Beth, and I'm on book talk under the name bethhaymondreads.
Chels
My name is Chels. I'm the writer of the romance substack The Loose Cravat, a romance book collector and book talker under the username chels_eBooks.
Emma
Today we're talking about a delightful book from Laura Kinsale. Midsummer Moon. Kinsale's most popular book, Flowers from the Storm, is a Reformed Rakes favorite, but we wanted to feature one of her books that has a slightly different tenor than her sweeping, almost epic style. In Flowers. Midsummer Moon features what Kinsale calls the "hedgehog humor" of some of her lighter novels, and it is the origin of that label. Midsummer Moon is goofy. It does, in fact, feature a hedgehog, along with an aphrodisiac salt, a pre Alexander Graham Bell invention of a telephone-like device, an inventor heroine named Merlin, and a duke with so many names that Merlin lands on calling him Mr. Duke most of the time. Midsummer Moon might sound kooky, and it is, but it still comes with typical Kinsale character driven, gut emotional punches that we love so much here. Kinsale's strength comes from complex characters who, in a genre full of tropes and iterations and reiterations, are singular, On her characterization, in an interview with All About Romance in 2004, Kinsale said, quote, "I feel that a character's flaws are what allow the reader to relate to them. I'm well known for not being a fan of the quote unquote perfect heroine.
Emma
Our admiration may be aroused by perfection, but that is a distant emotion. Empathy comes from a shared sense of humanity, and that's what interests me. The flaws that I choose are flaws that interest me, that seem to challenge the character in some way." So, Beth and Chels, what makes Kinsale such a special writer to you?
Chels
By now I've read most of her backlists, and she is absolutely fearless. She uses unconventional characters and setups to ask big questions without expecting easy answers. So the quote that you referenced Emma earlier is one that I think about all the time. Admiration is a distant emotion. This is why I struggle with other.
Chels
Authors that have prenaturely perfect heroines, like Jamie in Julie Garwoods's The Bride. I don't know how else to say this, and it sounds a little crazy, but Kinsale's writing makes me excited to be alive. The way that she peels apart her characters without reducing them to something so trite as good or bad kind of eases my mind and makes it easier for me to exist in the world. Like the way Judy Cuevas or Judith Ivory writes, where all I can think about is all the art that I haven't seen and the fabrics I haven't touched. For Kinsale, it's the people I haven't met or the things I haven't tried. She makes me feel happy and she makes me feel brave.
Beth
This feels very.
Emma
That made me well off a little bit. Tears came to my eyes!
Chels
I was like, she's my favorite author.
Emma
Yes, that was beautiful. I don't know if I can say anything other than what Chels said, other than Kinsale. When I read Flowers From the Storm for the first time, it felt like a transformative experience in my relationship to the genre. I then wondered, why wasn't every book like that? Why didn't everyone try to write that when I felt like nobody was writing like that? And she's also an author that I trust implicitly, which I think is very rare. I love a lot of authors that I love a lot of their books. But if I pick up a Mary Balogh book who's probably my most read author, I have no idea if I'm going to love it or not. There's lots that I love. There's lots that I hate. With Kinsale, even on books that I don't are maybe not like five stars, like totally favorites. I know I'm going to get something out of it and I'm going to find a way to love it. And I think she's very special.
Beth
Yeah, I feel like flowers from the storm is one of those books where it's like, if I'm trying to convert somebody to romance or to be like, this is the height of romance. This is the book. That's the book I would give them.
Emma
Yeah. If I'm being very honest with people in my life, like talking about novels, I put it in my top five novels of all time without any genre qualifiers. It's like Flowers from the Storm is up there for me, with A Room with a View or like Wuthering Heights. Like all the smart answers that I say when I'm not talking about romance, I have to include Flowers as well.
Chels
It really is that girl.
Emma
It is. But it is her most popular book. It has the most Goodreads review. So I'm excited to talk about another book that maybe more of our readers have not read or more of our listeners have not read, because this one was also delightful and I also really enjoyed it. All right, so we're as normal, we're going to do a plot summary. Forewarning this is long, not because the book is not that long, just lots happens, which we'll talk about and how Kinsale. Writes her plots.
Emma
But here's our plot summary of Midsummer Moon. Ransom Falconer, Duke of Damerl, is looking for the inventor Mr. Merlin Lamborn. But when he arrives to Lamborn's engineering lab, he discovers brilliant inventor Merlin is a scattered, forgetful young woman. Ransom is immediately charmed by Merlin's literal way of interacting with the world, but he is there for a purpose, to commandeer one of her inventions for national use in the war against Napoleon. Merlin has single mindedly been working on an aviation device so that humans can fly, but Ransom wants something practical, not the stuff of fantasy. One of his spies reported that Merlin has a revolutionary device that could be used in warfare, but that spy was killed and his cipher may have been decoded.
Emma
So now Merlin and all of her devices are in danger. When Merlin uses her speaking box, a proto telephone, to speak with one of her servants, Ransom decides this must be the device the spy referenced. He's so thrilled by the discovery that he kisses Merlin on the mouth. Ransom wants to take Merlin and this device to his home for protection and attempts to convince her over lunch some overcooked mutton. In order to make the mutton more palatable, Ransom asks Merlin for some salt. Her pet hedgehog is chilling in the salt cellar, so Merlin rummages around and hands up a container labeled nacl afro. Merlin suggests the salt may have been sourced from Africa as an explanation for her late uncle's labeling. Quickly after eating the mutton, Ransom starts proclaiming his love for Merlin, asking her about her name, commenting on her body and her mind, declaring he will nickname her wiz like wizard. Merlin, raised as a ward of a recluse, has little resistance to put up to Ransom's overtures, and she earnestly enjoys the encounter if she's a little confused at his eagerness. Quickly after the encounter, Ransom realizes he's acting out of character, sleeping with a woman, presumably a virgin.
Emma
After a few hours of acquaintance, he suddenly realizes the salt was an aphrodisiac post sex Merlin is knocked out and she wakes up in a carriage, only to realize Ransom is with her too. He has prevented her kidnapping by the henchmen of unknown origins, but also has kidnapped her himself under the pretense of her and her invention's protection, but also because he wants to keep her close to encourage her to accept his marriage proposal. They arrive at his large estate and ransom and introduces his brother, sister and mother to Merlin. Blythe, his sister, is worried about the propriety of Merlin showing up in her nightgown, but Shelby, a waste roll with that married second son, immediately charms and is charmed by Merlin. While Shelby and Ransom are catching up in another room, Merlin gets bored in her room and sees the home's weather vein. She climbs out to see it. When Ransom sees her on the roof, he immediately panics. He's so terrified of heights he won't sleep on the second floor of his own home. Shelby is able to climb up to help Merlin down, but not before all the house guests see a strange woman climbing on the roof.
Emma
Once Merlin is down from the roof, Ransom is able to reach her and rashly hauls her off to speak privately in his bedroom. Merlin fears she has embarrassed him in front of her guest, but he's only focused on getting her firmly on the ground. But his sister enters the room without knocking, letting guests outside the room see Ransom and Merlin in an embrace. This only makes his insistence that they marry stronger. Though Merlin does not assent, Blythe agrees to sow non committal seeds of gossip about their romance to protect everyone's reputation. A B plot is going on throughout the book is the romances of Ransom'siblings. Shelby, the brother, is on the outs with his wife Jacqueline, an actress. There seems to have been affairs on both sides of the relationship, and now Jacqueline wants custody of her children with Shelby heir Woodrow and twins Augusta and Aurelia, but Ransom hesitates to acquiesce, preferring that the couple reconciles. Blythe is also being courted by a dry Reverend beal. After three days at the house, Merlin's flying machine and speaking box equipment arrive and she gets to work on fixing and completing them. The household is interested in her equipment, and she gets to know Shelby's children, particularly stammering, science minded Woodrow.
Emma
When Mr. Peele finally gets up the courage to ask for permission to court Blythe formally, Ransom accidentally gets stuck to Merlin's hedgehog during a meeting requiring her assistance. During this debacle, a new character arrives, Major Quinton O'Sullivan O'Toole O'Shodasy, known as Quinn. That last name had been mentioned to Ransom in a note from the war secretary, and Ransom had assumed it was a joke, for this major is now at his home, presumably to help protect Merlin and the government's interest in her vice first comes to Ransom's office and Quinn flirts with her to her shock. And then Merlin arrives to remove the hedgehog from Ransom's finger. Ransom uses his pain as an excuse to be affectionate with Merlin again, and though she's growing more comfortable with it, Ransom references their marriage and Merlin grows visibly nervous. He prods her to explain why she won't marry him and becomes more earnest in his declaration of affection. Merlin tells him that she knows he wants her to abandon her flying machine as a condition, and she refuses to marry him because of that. Ransom retorts that he won't let her kill herself in her invention. She responds, quote, I'm not going to marry you and give up my aviation machine so that you can keep your good opinion of yourself.
Emma
Merlin keeps working on her machines, dedicating mornings to the speaking box and afternoons to aviation. Young Woodrow, who informs her that she has a rival working on a similar flying machine. Mr. Pemeny, who lives in a nearby cliff beach. He has been looking for a sponsor. Unable to find his own work and the british government was previously uninterested, Ransom has left her be for about three weeks, though Merlin finds her distracted by the thought of him. Ransom finally visits the ballroom where the flying machine is with a guest and is overwhelmed by the sight of Merlin and her machine. All of Ransom's household seems to be helping Merlin with the machine. They chat about her progress, but suddenly where Ransom is sitting starts to move. His seat is a part of an apparatus that goes up, presumably to work on the aviation machine. He's with his two young nieces. That only adds to his panic. Ransom's panic turns to anger when he arrives back on the ground and he forbids Merlin from continuing work on the machine. The next day, they have a meeting about her progress and Ransom proposes a new schedule, one that focuses on the talking box and allows Merlin to take care of herself.
Emma
Ransom puts his foot down and Merlin realizes negotiations are out of the question. The guests conspire to distract Ransom so Merlin can continue to work on the machine. Over breakfast, Woodrow, Ransom and Merlin discuss the damarol motto, add aspira per espera to the stars by hard ways, which Merlin loves. Woodrow gets anxious when Ransom tries to give him some advice about handling his squabbling parents, and Merlin sees a more tender side of the duke. He proposes again in a moment of intimacy, suggests that they will spend all night every night together. This snaps the almost agreeing Merlin back to reality. She works on her aviation machine at night, but Ransom takes this as a lack of sexual interest in him. In the fallout of the moment, Ransom reveals his late wife and daughters to Merlin, who he lost a bunch earlier. He also reveals that he once stammered himself like Woodrow. Merlin finds herself warming to him and this makes her nervous. Jacqueline and Shelby continue to squabble and Quinn continues to flirt with Blythe. The guests slowly retire from an entertainment one night, which really means they're going to help Merlin with her machine.
Emma
Ransom talks to his mother about his obligation to marry Merlin. She suggests that he's done enough of the honorable thing to meet his duty and if the lady refuses, maybe he should let her go. Unless he's really in love with her. His mother makes fun of his schoolboy crush that Ransom had on Merlin's mother and pokes and prods him until he exclaims that he's in lust with Merlin. Much to his own embarrassment, Merlin and Shelby attempt to trick ransom into allowing Shelby to accompany Merlin to a tinker's wagon to get supplies for the plane, though Ransom insists they just go on a walk. While in the errand, Merlin express frustration to Shelby that Ransom seems to want to change her and she would prefer if he just took her as she is. While at the tinker's wagon, both Shelby and Merlin are drugged. Ransom finds Shelby deposited near their lands, but Merlin is still missing. Meanwhile, Quinn reveals to ransom that while he's been looking after Merlin, he's also looking into Shelby and people who could potentially be blackmailing him over debts. This makes Shelby look like a conspirator to Merlin's kidnapping. While out walking on his lands near a secret folly that his siblings played in his youths, Ransom sees a hedgehog.
Emma
He remembers how to access the door of the folly and finds Merlin manacled. The kidnappers return and shoot at the couple, and Ransom gets shot. Merlin uses homemade rockets, of course, to fight back and save Ransom. In his stupor, he tells Merlin that he loves her. She visits him that night when he is healing and they have a very sweet sex scene where he's trying his hardest not to faint while seducing her, though that is eventually exactly what happens. They reassert their love for each other. He proposes again and she refuses again. Quinn and Ransom's secretary investigate the kidnapping. Mr. Peele finds a hat near the folly that belongs to Shelby, which possibly incriminates Ransom's brother as having been near where Merlin was found. Ransom and Merlin talk to each other about Ransom taking her speaking box to London to be used by the Admiralty, and though they love each other, he says she will be going home once the speaking box is delivered. Ransom lies a little bit, saying his mother and sister are going to Brighton, so it would be improper for her to stay without them being married. He's attempting to get her to agree to the marriage, but she still worries he won't let her work on the flying machine and she no longer trusts his promises, which he has broken.
Emma
Ransom works himself up, trying to think of what he can give her, and he faints again. The duchess and Merlin finally have a conversation, and the duchess tries to explain to Merlin the deep fear that Ransom has of losing her. And Merlin tries to explain how much of her self image is tied up in the machine and insists she will continue working on it. Ransom goes to London and returns with a new idea. He'll hire someone else to fly the machine. But he hears a commotion outside and he sees his household with the aviation machine attempting a flight. He panics and sees Merlin on the machine. A gust of wind comes and the machine comes down suddenly. When Ransom reaches her, Merlin is unconscious and has a dislocated her shoulder and has a severe concussion. The doctor warns that she may never wake up, and in a rage, Ransom orders the machine and all accompanying notes be burnt. While Merlin is unconscious, she can't eat, so she begins to waste away. Using a method from the horse groom, they're able to use a tube to feed her broth and save her. After about a week, she starts stirring and Ransom is there when she opens her eyes.
Emma
Merlin has suffered amnesia and remembers nothing of her meeting with Ransom or his family. Unfortunately, Ransom takes this opportunity to tell her that they are in love, true and engaged. Not true. Ransom lays the lie on thick and Merlin is charmed and feels like she ought to keep her promise. They marry by such a license. At the house, Merlin, later in the day, speaks to Woodrow and he references her successful flight and tells her he noticed that the plane had been sabotaged. This makes Merlin curious about her model and Woodrow tells her that Ransom burned him. Downstairs at the wedding party, Ransom has the beaver hat from before and Quinn recognizes it potentially as his own hat. Ransom still thinks it might be Shelby's and asks him, leading questions about hats that he might have lost. Ransom clearly thinks the hat is a clue to who took Merlin. Merlin arrives at the party. Fury is at Ransom and she declares that she is leaving. Her memory is coming back in bits and spurts, but she knows that he burned her machine. She can't quite leave the estate yet because she can't remember where any of her things are.
Emma
So she goes outside to contemplate a fountain's mechanics and to avoid Ransom. Merlin gets into the fountain and slips. When Ransom says her names and she goes under, he rescues her. Thinking that she's considering suicide, she lashes out at him. But he still insists it isn't safe for her to return to her home. Despite her anger and sadness directed right at him, Ransom comforts her. A new experience for Merlin in the face of a setback. This causes her to realize she can't hate him. They fight over the flying machine again and end up having sex in the fountain. Merlin seems motivated to have a real memory of what it's like to love him. They spend the night in bed together and the next morning Merlin lies that she will be gone for a moment and sneaks out dressed as a young boy. Shelby sees her and immediately realizes she's leaving. Mr. Peele is also there, being really boring. Shelby says he will help Merlin leave while Mr. Peele insists that this just isn't done. Shelby leaves to get supplies for Merlin and Mr. Peele leaves to tell Ransom. So Merlin leaves on her own on a gray pony.
Emma
But when a gatekeeper pops out who's not in the proper livery, he tells Merlin the gray pony is unridable and she gets down. But then she's immediately ethered and kidnapped for the last time. So then we cut to everyone looking for Merlin. Ransom is even more suspicious of Shelby now. Mr. Peele unhelpfully suggests that everyone pray and has Quinn get him a sermon book off the shelf. Out of the book falls a note of debt between Shelby and Sir Arthur rule that has been paid, which makes it clear that Shelby is getting money from somewhere. Ransom thinks he sold out Merlin and places Shelby under arrest. Shelby is so distraught by the accusations he lays out the evidence against him himself in front of everyone, including Woodrow. Woodrow offers his father's defense, including that he saw Blythe and Quinn near where Merlin was found. This makes everyone question them and it is revealed they are a couple and have been using the folly as a meeting place. Ransom has both Quinn and Shelby arrested. We're back to Merlin who is kidnapped and is with Mr. Peminy, her rival inventor, who does not realize who he is working for or that he's not afraid to leave.
Emma
At Pemeny's lab, Merlin sees her own drawings and confirms that someone has been spying on her. It seems to be copies of all the papers that Ransom burned. Woodrow visits the lab occasionally seemingly allowed by the captors to keep Peme from realizing that he's under arrest. Peme writes a note to Woodrow saying he can't visit and Merlin allows her hedgehog to walk across the note, leaving footprints as a clue. Woodrow does show the note to Ransom and Ransom does investigate, though he thinks it might be silly. When he arrives, he can see his dressing gown hanging outside the window. Merlin is at the castle. He has to find a way inside and the castle's on a cliff sort of crumbling into the sea. There's a far wall he can walk along, though it runs parallel to the cliff. He makes himself sick with worry about transversing the back way. He comes to a crevice in the path that he has to jump across and he doesn't. Ransom finds Merlin and Mr. Peminy discussing aviation machines inside the castle. Ransom has Mr. Peminy and Merlin go out the way he came. He can't muster waiting over the crevice again, so he returns to the rooms to create a diversion.
Emma
While fighting off the guards in the room, he realizes that Merlin has returned to be with him. In a lull in the fighting, Merlin looks out the window and sees Mr. Peele talking to the French. Ransom realizes that Peele is the traitor and has been behind the framing of Shelby and Quinn. When Ransom sees Merlin's notes, he realizes his own folly. The enemy was interested in her flying machine, though he thought it was just a trifle. Peminy has built a working edition of the machine and it's on the parapet of the castle. Peele threatens to blow up the entire castle. It's been a storage munition become storage for munitions in its disrepair. Ransom wants Merlin to go over the steep walkway and he just utterly refuses. Rationalizing, he would rather stay in the castle, certain to blow up than cross the path again. The enemy sets the fire and Ransom go up to the roof near the flying machine. Ransom again cannot muster the power to get into the flying machine. He's panicking with fear. He wants her in the machine and trusts it will fly but cannot get into it himself. Merlin realizes that he would rather be blown up than attempt to fly from a great height.
Emma
For the first time. Understanding the severity of his fear of heights, Merlin lies to him and says the machine won't fly with just the load of her. He needs to be the counterweight. He needs to rescue her. In a scene fit for Mission Impossible, they fly off just as the castle is exploding. They land successfully in a field near the house. Shelby and Jacqueline reconcile. Quinn and Blythe are happy. Ransom tries to give Merlin an out for their marriage by being noble and sending her home. But she insists on saying they're just very cute at the end. He even calls her Mrs. Duke. So that's midsummer moon.
Beth
Yeah. I want this book to be a movie.
Emma
I often feel like adaptations when people talk about this romance novel should be a movie. It's like there's not enough plot in a lot of romance novels for there to be a movie. Like this is Bridgerton's issue is they have to add all this extra stuff because not that much happens in the books. This could totally be a movie. There's totally enough things to happen for a two hour movie.
Beth
Yeah, for sure.
Emma
So the first thing I wanted to talk about was the suspension of disbelief works in this novel because it has kind of an absurd setup and it kind of continues to be absurd throughout the book. Some suspension of disbelief is part and parcel for historical romance. So in some ways it's easier to accept things like a love potion mixed into salt. But I also think romance readers have high expectations for the integration of these setups into the plot. Like an author can't just do it just to do it without a reader jumping ship. Do you think feel like you as a reader have a line in historical romance where you think this is just too silly? And did you approach it at all with this novel where, like, so many sort of absurd things happen?
Chels
I don't think I have a breaking point for what is or what isn't too silly in historical romance because I can really love some goofy and bizarre setups. But part of the reason historical romance is so much fun for me is because it's not typically interested in the mundane. That said, if a book is wild but has no emotional payoff for me, I don't think it's gonna land and I'm probably gonna think it's so like, yes, Midsummer Moon is Kinsale's goofiest book, but she also put so much longing and angst in there and everything really felt like it happened for a reason, no matter how silly it was. Like ransom taking the aphrodisiac is how he gets romantically entangled with Merlin. Merlin's comedic flightiness leads Ransom to wrongly believe she'll be easy to manipulate. And the hedgehog helps saves Merlin's life. So I could go on and on with how these really goofy things that you see in the book, they make sense. They're part of the story. It's like all of the world building that Kinsale does. She's not doing it just to be. Ugh.
Chels
And so, Emma, you had a point in here about the amnesia plotline in here, and I was thinking about it. Is amnesia reviled in romance? Because I feel like it is, but I don't really have anything to back that up.
Emma
I think it's one of those things people will list ridiculous things that happen in romance, and they'll list amnesia. But then a lot of books that have amnesia are beloved, and so it's like one of those trope plot points where people sort of falter on the examples I think they give of, like, this doesn't work. But then people love a lot of books with amnesia plots.
Chels
Yeah. Like, I feel like Meredith Duran's one with amnesia people really love. Shoot.
Beth
What's that called? A lady's guide to Misconduct.
Emma
Yeah, I like that.
Chels
Yeah. And then my favorite amnesia plot is kind of the one that happens here, which is, like, the manipulation of feelings. Amnesia plot also happens in tempting the bride by Sherry Thomas. I don't really feel like it's that crazy. Ransom spends the entire book trying to manipulate Merlin into doing what he wants, and it never works. So the usual lines like, oh, you'll be ruined. What will your family think? Think of your money. Or, like, literally does not work for Merlin because she only has one goal, which is building the flying machine. So ransom has to make it clear that he's willing to impede that goal. So to do that, he's using her amnesia to get her to marry him. And it's like the moment where he goes beyond the pale and also the moment where he gets that really badly needed reset, even if it is temporary. So you remember at the beginning of the book when he breaks her kite, that's the moment where he's fucked in Merlin's eyes for the rest of the book. That's like, the one people kind of, like, point to. I saw in some reviews people point to him breaking her flying machine at the end and destroying the plans.
Chels
That's not really his big, bad act. For Merlin, it's the kite, which is such a small thing, but it really seemed to tell her a lot about him. He didn't understand what that action meant to her, and so therefore, he was kind of, like, doomed to repeat it in different and increasing ways. Like, he eventually gets to the flying machine. So it's kind of like in tempting the bride where David, the hero of that book, was Helena's tormentor growing up, but it's that classic story of boy is infatuated and doesn't know how to act.
Beth
Right.
Chels
So his bad behavior actually scars Helena and makes her dislike and destruct him well into adulthood where he can't come back from that. So when Helena gets amnesia, David uses that as a reset, just kind of the same way that ransom uses it as a reset. He fucked it up so much before she lost her memory that it's unclear if he would have had that opportunity at all to turn things around without her having a clean slate. I don't have a better way to put that, but that's kind of what's initially coming to mind. So the huge ethical quandary around this makes for, I think, really interesting stakes and of course, the eventual conflict when the person with amnesia remembers their past again and they have to confront this one person's bad act, plus their new complicated feelings around that bad act.
Beth
Yeah, I think amnesia is an interesting one to use as what line is too far or what is too silly for romance readers. Because, yes, if we're going to go off the real world, how authors use amnesia is just not how it works. You're not going to get specific amount of time that just perfectly covers maybe their dating or the part of A Lady's Guide to Misconduct. I can't remember his name, but he's like a bad person. Crispin. Yes. So Crispin, for the past five years has been doing these political machinations that are not good, but he loses that five years specifically. Right. But I think it's interesting because it's like an interesting narrative question. What would you do if you forgot those five years of you being bad and you actually kind of had a second chance? Or you're bringing up with, what's the quandary around with Merlin and Ransom? That's like him going beyond the pale at that point. So I guess I can forgive amnesia. I know for some people it's not. And I think I also am kind of like Charles. I don't have a consistent line on what is too silly for me as, like, a setup for a romance novel, because most often it just comes down to if I think the author pulled it off well enough.
Beth
So I don't have one particular thing where I'm like, yeah, I can never read, like, an aphrodisiac book.
Chels
Yeah, I was just like, one of my most recently loved romance novels is Kiss An Angel, where it has like a Romanov plotline. Isn't he like a telekinesis with the tiger?
Beth
But it's like such narrow abilities, right? Like, it's only the telekinesis. It's not like a magical setting.
Emma
Right.
Beth
Right.
Emma
And he can make her cigarettes explode.
Chels
Oh, yeah. With his whip.
Emma
Right. Because Kiss an Angel is a contemporary, which, just for context, that's even more absurd. But I do love that book.
Beth
I kind of like that, though, because I feel like it narrows the scope. Like, what if you just had telekinesis? There's this one author that I really like, Mette Ivie Harrison, where she's written fantasy, but how she approaches world building that way, she's like, just change one thing and then what is all the repercussions from that? If you just have one character who can do telekinesis, how does that inform his character? How does that affect his world particularly? I think it's much more interesting for me, but I don't like big world building.
Emma
I'm also anti world building, so I think that appeals to me. I like that you said about changing one things. I wonder if Kinsale also approaches that as, like a question because I was thinking about Uncertain Magic, another favorite Kinsale of ours, where that's one where there's magic in the title, but it's not like a fantasy novel in that there's fantasy characters. It's definitely like a historical romance, but the lead character can read people's minds and then part of the conceit of the book is that she can't read the hero's mind. And so it's one of the only. It's a single POV, but not a gothic. And so it's this weird structure, but it's limited, based on. We don't get into the hero's mind because the heroine has this unique experience of she can't go into his mind either. So it creates this interesting structure. So I think Kinsale sort of goes full send when she commits to those changes that happen. And I think I agree that when you have a concept making sure it's backed up with the emotional way. Because I think. Yeah, the silly concepts that I think of. The Lisa Kleypas amnesia book, I don't like.
Emma
But that's one where it doesn't ask questions because I can't remember. It's someone to watch over me. I think it's based on overboard, the Goldie Hawn movie.
Chels
But that's a question. It's like, what if you weren't a whore?
Emma
Yeah. Because they don't have a previous relationship. When she gets amnesia, he finds her and thinks that she's a prostitute, but she's actually a lady. And so it asks questions about class and perception rather than relationship. And so it's like, oh, those are just questions I care about less, like what makes a lady versus what makes a sex worker. Those are problematic and also boring questions narratively for me. So Kinsale asking questions about what does it mean to get a clean slate with somebody? What does it mean to get a clean slate through lying to them. Those are more interesting because she's asking questions within the concept that she's setting up. So there's payoff. Even if you're like, this would never happen. Lots of things in this book would never happen. But it's okay.
Beth
Writes both books, I do have one where I feel like what I struggle with is for implausible setup books is a mismatch in tone. I think it can be a difficult thing to pin down, to get the tone right, and then also as what you're trying to achieve is going to land differently with every reader, which is something we've already touched on. But my best example of a mismatched tone is Day of the Duchess by Sarah MacLean. I do like that book, but I struggle with there's, like, scenes in the past and then scenes in the present. So Sarah and Malcolm are separated, and the first time he sees her in several years, she petitions parliament for a divorce. So he says he'll give her one if she helps him pick out a new wife, and she agrees. So he invites a bunch of eligible women to his mansion as, like, a ruse so he can buy more time to convince Sarah to not divorce. So the setup is, like, in the present is kind of goofy. It's this comedy situation, but the past part of the book is so heavy, and it covers how he thinks she trapped him into marriage, and there's, like, a miscarriage.
Beth
So I struggled with the book for that reason, and then I just could not buy the present parts as much. There would be these very romantic scenes as well when they're starting to get back together. But that also felt, like, inconsistent with the rest of the book.
Emma
Yeah, I have a similar reaction to that book. I like that book, and I like that romance. But I think if I were to reread it, I would skip a lot of scenes because I just don't care about the bachelor competition thing that they're doing. It's just a little silly. Again, if it was, like, full send drama, I think I'd prefer it.
Beth
Yeah, I'd rather she just rip my heart out or lean way more into the comedy part of it and then just have these deeply romantic moments. That are like, that's the comedy that's bringing them together.
Emma
Moving on to some characters that we love in this book. We love a dissipated, gambling second son on this podcast. So I wanted to ask both about Shelby, Ransom's younger brother, who fits that bill, and also Ransom's more staid sister Blythe, because these are characters that sort of are unique, I think, in how Kinsale uses them. As far as the betrayal plot goes, I'm pretty sure that I never suspected Mr. Peele, whose name I consistently forget because he's so boring throughout the book. I just wanted him off the page every time he was there, which I think is also how Ransom felt. But I think part of the reason I didn't suspect Mr. Peele is because Shelby and Blythe were so well developed and I was so charmed by their presence that I was spending a lot of time rationalizing how I could still love those two characters if they were the ones that were betraying Merlin and Ransom. Like, I was prepared for Kinsale to have an explanation why these two characters sold out Merlin, and that I would still be on their side. As much as I was thinking about how I'd like to revisit either sibling in their own stories, though they both get satisfying endings sort of romantically in this book, I do think this makes for a better version of Midsummer Moon, that she doesn't have this whole universe where we're waiting for Shelby and Jacqueline to get together in another book, or for Blythe and Quinn to get together in another book.
Emma
It's not just a launching pad to a series. So how did you feel about Shelby and Blythe as characters and also their function in the novel?
Chels
Okay, so starting with Shelby, I absolutely adored, like his early interactions with Merlin when she's on the weather vein were so delightful, and the ease that they developed and sustained with each other throughout the book was just so endearing. What really got to me, though, was the first time we see Shelby and Ransom interact like it's a setup that we see all the time in historical romance. Like wastrel younger brother is on a path to self destruction and needs to be reined in by the more staid older brother. But the way that ransom kind of laid himself bare for Shelby and repeatedly thought about how much he loved him was like such a Kinsale thing to do. Midsummer Moon is very much a book that asks what is it to love someone who is out to destroy themselves? And Ransom has this conversation with Shelby before we get into the heft of the conflict with Merlin. And that's something that you pointed out, Emma, before we started getting into the episode where it's kind of like, you kind of see where things are going because of the way that he is interacting with. The way that he is interacting with Shelby's self destructive tendencies.
Emma
Yeah. Shelby is so again, I would love to read him as a hero of his book because he's just so charming and immediately he's someone that makes not Merlin feel at home. But she's like, okay, there's warmth in this home that I see. She can tell that Ransom cares for Shelby. She can tell that Shelby trusts Ransom. So she's like, okay, I'm safe here. Which, I mean, to be fair, she's in her nightgown when she arrives at the house. She has no idea what's going on. And so I think he serves an important role in their relationship because she's like, okay, I'm sort of triangulating my perception of Ransom, which I think Merlin has to do a lot because she doesn't have a lot of context for social clues. She has to use other people to tell what the relationships are in the house, and I think that's useful. Yeah. And Shelby, I could totally see a plot happening where Shelby is the one that is betraying them. But I guess maybe I had Silver devil in my head because I just listened to Silver Devil, like, our episode. So I was thinking, I was like, I will love him as much as I love what's his name, Piero.
Emma
I was like, I will love him even if he betrays them, like Piero, but he doesn't end up betraying them. But I was prepared to go down with Shelby. Okay.
Beth
I just think this speaks to Kinsale's talent in developing characters that she endears Shelby to us so quickly, even, like, when we learn he's gambled away 60,000 pounds.
Emma
That's so much money.
Beth
Yeah, I'm on team. Let's pay off the debt. Yeah. That is a ton of money. And I'm glad she had that much money on there. This is like, a minor gripe of mine because I read another book one time where this family was in trouble and they were like, 5000 pounds in debt or something, and I burst out laughing. I'm like, that's like, I'm sure everyone in the gentry had that level of debt, right? Anyway, that's random, side note. But I think us trusting Shelby, this kind of pays off because this is also kind of like a mystery. Like, we're trying to figure out who is kidnapping Merlin over and over again. And so at that particular point in the book, it does look pretty damning like the evidence that they have, which, again, adds to Ransom's devastation that it could be his brother. And I don't know, I did really sympathize with him in that moment. And I also suspected Blythe as well. And it just speaks to Kinsale that she's, like, leading us along like that, that we're blaming each sibling. And then I wanted to touch on your point, Emma, about how these sibling characters function in the plot.
Beth
I do love an interconnected novel, and I think each story structure, like the self contained or like the series approach, has its strengths, but I think the strength of a self contained story is obviously the more immediate emotional development of the supporting characters and that enriches the book you're actually reading in the moment. I don't want to say one approach is better because we've all read stories where we're like, oh, we wish so and so. Like, Piero, if he had didn't die in that book, could have gotten their own books. Because I do think some side romances, they do need that page length to fully explore their story, but I really do like a nice, complete story and side characters who have their own arcs and it's fulfilling to see them. And I feel like this speaks to a chronic complaint that you both have about Lisa Klepus where she does the interconnected novels. Alarm. And it's like your favorite moment might not be in that couple's book. Chels has said that before.
Chels
I'm always mad that my favorite moment between Helen and Winterbourne happens in Cold Hearted Rake. I don't know, it just gets me so mad.
Emma
Yeah, that is frustrating. I agree. I'm less annoyed by it because I'm more willing to reread Cold Hearted Rake, but it's still. It is annoying. It also throws off the pacing of some of her. And when a book is not as good, I think there are weaker books in a series sometimes with Kleypas, and I don't want to have to reread a weaker book to get the whole love story.
Beth
I feel like some interconnected novels, I'm like, do you really need a setup in the first book? Or you can just kind of be like, here's a side character from the first novel, and I set nothing up, but now I'm going to explore their story in another book.
Emma
Yeah, like when you meet both characters versus meeting one of them, I think it's a different approach.
Chels
Yeah, I was literally just about to bring that up because she has interconnected, but she doesn't set them up as sequels. So her first book, the hidden Heart, and then years later, a tiny character that's mentioned in the hidden heart is the main character of the Shadow and the star. And then, of course, you've got for my lady's heart, ale Greto. And I think Allegretto was more of, like a fans demand Allegretto's stoy. And then a decade later, Kim Tao wrote ShadowHeart,
Emma
one of her wildest books. It's so funny to think that that's like a fan service book because it's so wild.
Chels
The fans want fem dom. I love Allegretto so much. Just shout out.
Emma
I knew that Luara Kinsale wrote Shadowheart. Obviously, I've read Shadowheart, but I had not thought about that book while preparing for this episode. And now my mind is, like, exploding thinking about that one person wrote Midsummer Moon and Shadowheart just. She's incredible.
Chels
It's crazy.
Emma
Yeah.
Chels
Best ever do it.
Emma
Yeah. Yeah.
Chels
And then, so taking it back to Blythe, Ransom's older sister. So Blythe is also kind of a character that we see over and over again in historical romance, like the older spinster who is a little too invested in family legacy. What kind of sets her apart is that she has a complete lack of malice. She's mostly just a little at sea. What to do with her life. Like, if anything, Ransom is in the wrong for trying to marry her off to Mr. Peele just because he can't think of a better role for her and wants to kind of get her out of his hair lovingly.
Emma
I think I got this especially on reread. Ransom is kind of cruel to Blythe. Like, she's trying to control the situation and she does a lot of damage control. Considering that he shows up at his house when he has guests at the house with a woman who's not wearing shoes and is in a nightgown, he's not really thinking about what things look like. Even though he has this political career that he cares about. Blythe will sometimes use the royal we or we're talking about the whole family, and he's like, well, it's my political career. What have you done? And I think a lesser author would characterize Blythe as sort of like a frigid, controlling sister and the duke would be in the right in that interaction. But I think when you read it, I was mad at Ransom for talking to Blythe that way, even though I know Ransom better in that scene, Blythe has just showed up and she's kind of controlling. Ransom definitely, I think, is in the wrong, at least emotionally. Even if in his setup, in his family, it's like he's the duke, he's in charge. Maybe Blythe is overstepping their dynamic.
Emma
It's still, like a cruel thing to say. It's like he's pointing out that Blythe doesn't really have a use, especially if he gets married. Like, if he marries Merlin or anyone, Blythe will really be useless in their dynamic. He will have a mistress of his house. So I think this dovetails nicely into the ways that we talk about Ransom's behavior and the way that he makes decisions about things and some of his foibles. So something we talk about in terms of relationships as related to leaps of faith. We talked about this in our miscommunication episode, that sometimes you have to try something scary to be able to meet someone where they are. So in this book, we have a few examples of danger seeking behavior with different motivations surrounding Ransom. So he considers himself more even keeled than people like Merlin or Shelby. Merlin and her flying machine, Shelby and his gambling. Blythe even has her clandestine affair, which is sort of her risky seeking behavior. But Ransom's dangerous behavior seems to be this level of control he asserts over everyone. He's always at risk of these people breaking or shattering under his control. I love how Kinsale handles dukes.
Emma
Frequent complaint of ours is that sometimes dukes and books don't seem duke-y enough. They're just like any other aristocrat. But dukes really are in their own level. I think Jervaux from flowers of the storm is like the duke to end all dukes. But one thing I liked is that she gave him this foible of lying all the time in order to control people around him. And Merlin's issue with the lying is less of a moral one. I don't know if she points out when he gets caught and lie that he's making a moral decision that's incorrect. But what she points out is that she can't trust him when he lies to her. And I think, again, like a lesser author would have this be like a moral quandary. But Merlin is very practical, and she's not really prescriptive in her behaviors because she doesn't think lying is always bad because she also lies to get what she wants. But she just points out that lying makes Ransom unreliable, which is something he accuses Shelby of. And I think if you ask Ransom to describe himself. He would describe himself as reliable and stayed and predictable.
Emma
But Merlin's constantly pointing out that she cannot rely on him. And so I think that makes just for a duke with flaws, but also a duke that has flaws that make sense in his role as Duke, I think is a strength of the book.
Beth
That's what I was going to say and what I feel I really like that Kinsale is exploring how this position of power would maybe inform someone's character or if ransom already has that tendency, that being a duke just kind of like, I don't want to enable seems like the wrong word, but he has the power to try and manipulate those around him more than other people would, or just like, more resources to manipulate, I guess. And I'm not going to lie, I kind of struggled with this book in the beginning, but I think a lot of what I was feeling was annoyance with ransom. Not like I think this character is bad annoyance, but he's trying to please stop trying to control Merlin annoyance. And so once we reach that point in his character arc that he's like, okay, I can't keep controlling the people around me. Those feelings kind of resolved. But yeah, I think I really like what you said, Emma. I really like this intersection of him being a duke and then him trying to control everyone around him.
Emma
His lying makes this different than I think. Chels, you may even characterize this as, like, a starchy Duke gets unstarched book, which I think it is. Merlin is definitely, like, unstarching him. But I think this even makes it different than some of those other books, like the lying and how invested he is in that control through manipulation and from not telling people the whole truth or going back on promises. I'm thinking of other strachy dukes. I think Wulfric is, like our example from Mary Balogh, Slightly Dangerous, Wulfric. He wouldn't frame it as lying. Also, I think he would really honor his word. And also he's a little bit more in control of everything. He's maybe better at being a duke than Ransom, so maybe he wouldn't have to do. I just. I think it makes for. It's still under that umbrella of starchy Duke gets unstarched, but it does make for a different iteration of it that he's sort of on edge all the time and is willing to go back on his word in a way that I think we think of dukes as, like, honor bound or my word is law and ransom doesn't quite have that skill set.
Chels
Yeah, I feel like there's another version of this book where Ransom is getting what he wants by exerting force rather than lying and not necessarily assaulting her, but he could so easily make her do whatever he wants. He doesn't really need to lie to her, but he also really likes her from the get go. I think that's kind of where you get what's a little bit different from a lot of starchy Duke gets on starch or from a bodice or setup where there is also manipulation. Is that how Merlin perceives Ransom is really important to ransom because he wants to be endeared to her? And so that's why he decides that he has to lie to her. And then also, like, in Ransom's mind, I think what differentiates his behavior from Shelby's behavior is that in Ransom's mind, he's lying to save Merlin's life, partially.
Chels
I think the marriage thing, that's not anything to do with saving Merlin's life, but his lies about the flying machine, that manipulation is in his mind just to protect her, just to keep her safe, because there's literally no way that he can convince Merlin of this. She's not convinced of it ever, really. And he was fucked from the kite. There is no way he could really dig himself out of that hole. And so I think he's able to rationalize it. He's able to keep up that cognitive dissonance because of the reasons that he's giving himself for the lying and for the manipulation. And then I also think, too, what is so good about Kinsale and about this book is that I was also kind of like Marilyn. I think you might as. As egregious as Ransom's behavior was, a lot of the time, because he was so enamored with her, I could see why he was doing like, it made sense to me. And so I had a slightly different reaction where it didn't frustrate me. And I think I tended to get more frustrated with Merlin, but then I would kind of have to sit with that and think about Merlin's perspective, where it's just like she's so smart.
Chels
I think that because she's different, people kind of tend to treat her as if she doesn't understand what's going on when they're talking to her, when they're manipulating her, but it's something that she calls out repeatedly. She tells Ransom all the time. I know you're lying to me. I know you're not telling the truth. I know this is happening. And so I saw some reviews where they're just kind of like treating Merlin like she was a child who was completely unaware of her surroundings. And that's not true. That's not what's happening.
Beth
We talked about this a little bit and I think Merlin's autistic. Like, kind of clearly autistic, where I think that's part of the miscommunication that's happening between Ransom and her, where it's like she's so sure of herself, where I've done the calculations, my math is correct. I'm not going to fall and die. Where it's like ransom is like, sure, but there's always a, um. But it's just interesting how each of them approaches it differently and what each person cares about.
Emma
Yeah. I think also the black and white lying or not telling the truth for Merlin, I could see, like Shelby and Blythe, Ransom probably also lies to them to protect them, but maybe because they're invested in the aristocracy, invested in him as the head of the family and maybe also don't have this black and white thinking about truth telling. He's not been confronted on this habit that he's built as a control. He's like, yes, technically, I'm lying. When she confronts him about it, he's like, this is how I operate. This is how I get things that I want. This is how everyone around me is okay with it. It's like, yeah, I go back on my word when I get new information and that's how I make decisions. I'm the Duke. And Merlin's like, that's not how having a word of. I think maybe she's the first person to confront him on this. So we're seeing him have a bad habit that he's probably built for many years. Talked about. I mentioned this in the plot summary, but it's odd kind of how Kinslae brings it up, but I'll bring it up to put a point in it.
Emma
He has suffered, like, great loss. So his first wife dies and he lost two. She had twins and both of the daughters died shortly after childbirth. And Kinsale doesn't really bring it up as a plot point. Ransom sort of remembers it and then he mentions it to Merlin, but there's not, like a big confrontation or conversation about it, so it's kind of easy to get lost. When I was doing the plot summary, how much you're sort of thinking about this throughout the book, that Ransom, when he's worried about Merlin dying, had a wife who died and a wife who he is sort of a marriage, like a political marriage like. He speaks kindly about his first wife, but he doesn't seem to have been in love with her. And he's like, I know what it feels like to lose a wife who is not even like the great love of your life. It's just hard to lose someone who you were intimate with. And he lost his children. So he does have this grief that Merlin doesn't ask questions about and doesn't really realize is sort of a motivating factor for him. For much of the book.
Emma
He tells her pretty late this reference. She doesn't even realize he was married before because he's not super interested in talking about it. And also she doesn't really question what his motivations are.
Beth
Also, I wonder if he just doesn't understand how much that is motivating him. He's just like, that was something that happened to me a while ago.
Emma
Very compartmentalized.
Beth
Yeah.
Emma
So something I wanted to talk about. And this connects to Beth's point about Merlin possibly being autistic. So hot girl hobby is an affectionate phrase that I use to describe when a heroine in a romance novel has a special interest that can kind of be subbed in and out for anything. Amanda Quick does these. I enjoy quite a few of Amanda Quick books that do this. Tessa Dare is the modern contemporary author, or modern contemporary, like currently writing historical romance author, who does this the most structurally, they make the heroine quote unquote interesting. They give them an excuse to be alone with the hero a lot of the time, and they allow the author to show off historical research into something. I say this affectionately, but I'm kind of being a little derisive when I call them this, but I think because Kinsale is such a character driven author, I don't know if you can describe any trait she gives as a character as surface level, though inventing vaguely anachronistic devices is prime hot girl hobby territory. But Merlin reminded me of some of Courtney Milan's science heroines, who I think are examples of integrating women's occupations more substantially with the plot and the romance that you can't just take out the one, whatever they're doing, and sub it in with something else.
Emma
I also think it works because Merlin's invention is so connected to Ransom's fear. Like, this book would not be the same book if you subbed in another hot girl hobby like beekeeping or scientific illustration or paleontology. The book doesn't work unless her interest is in inventing new things that haven't been safety tested. I don't mind books that are hot girl hobby books. But I think this is one where, oh, this shows you what those kind of books could be if there was more character work around the sort of subbed in special interest. But I think also the way that the special interest works here sort of speaks to maybe Merlin's neurodivergence that she has this one focus, and she also ties her identity up a lot with what she does in a way that a lot of characters around her don't understand. So they're like, you're not invented. You are not your inventions. And she's very much like, I am my inventions.
Chels
Yeah. If Merlin was a beekeeper, I don't think the French would be as good.
Beth
I feel like there's a version of the Viscount who loved me where, like, Kate's a beekeeper, and it puts her more at odds with Anthony because he's definitely afraid of.
Emma
Panics. It's like she sees she comes in with a big hood, and he's like NO!
Chels
He goes to visit her in a garden.
Beth
Exactly.
Chels
To have a heartfelt conversation, only to hear the swarm approach from afar.
Beth
I love the phrase hot girl hobby. I just got to throw that out there.
Emma
It's pretty useful. I think sometimes people think that I'm. I am making fun of the books when I call them that, but I think the most pushback I've ever gotten when I call it that is they're like, well, women's work is not like hobbying. I was like, these women.
Chels
These are rich women!
Emma
These are rich women who have hobbies. Yes.
Chels
Just because you're not talking about, like, a laundress or seamstress.
Emma
Right. If it was a job that they needed to make money off of, I wouldn't call it the hot girl hobby. And it's like, Merlin does not need to invent these things. She seems to be independently wealthy. She's not selling her inventions. And I think that work versus hobby and labor, I think those are interesting questions that sometimes come up in these books. And I think that's one of those questions that Courtney Milan deals with, with these heroines and her heroines. The one I'm thinking is especially is The Countess Conspiracy. And Beth talked about this before we started recording about how the way that labor works in that book and who's allowed to work is a question in that book, and it's not that her work is not. She needs to make money off of it, but is, like, labor and work and intellectual work. And that's one of the reasons it sort of pushes past hot girl hobby. That's why I use it as an example of, like, oh, I like the books that are like this, but I also like the books that do something interesting with it. And it's beyond the sort of perfunctory, let's just come up with.
Emma
Look for what were women doing with their extra time in the 1780s? Doing something.
Beth
Yeah. I feel like a lot of times, authors approach it as, like, this character is different. She's empowered. She's doing this work that seems, like, essential to her, but they don't ever kind of interrogate the actual time period and how people viewed work and how, if you were, especially in the gentry, as a, like, at the regency, I don't want to, as Emma always points out, collapse all of history into one thing, but all of your skills you were learning, they were deliberately stunted. They just wanted to show you off. They weren't trying to be like, you're going to be a master seamstress and live off your work. You just are going to show off your pretty work. But if you did actually find a job, you would go down in social standing. I feel like that's never really talked about or addressed or the potential repercussions of actually working or what labor means.
Emma
And I think those hobbies of artistic pursuits, it's like, oh, I think we can have the conversation of art versus craft, but these women are not exchanging their work for wage. And so can we really call it work and labor? There are different questions being asked there. And to demand that the hobbies are labor, I think, is diminishing to the people who are surrounding these heroines, who are often doing the labor that allows them to explore their hobby.
Beth
Right. And like you mentioned The Countess Conspiracy before with Violet, and she's doing work. I can't even remember what science she's even in. But she is pushing botany. Yeah, botany. I think she is pushing for a level of mastery and level of recognition because she tries to get published. So, yes, she's rich, and she has the time to do that. So there's multiple aspects here. But I do find it interesting that she is going for that level. She's deeply interested in it. She's interested in advancing the science and making discoveries. And I don't know if she wants to collaborate with people, but, yeah, this.
Chels
Kind of got me thinking a little bit, too, because I think one of the ones that comes up a lot with hot girl hobbies is fossils.
Emma
There's so many fossils.
Chels
Ravished and then Week to be Wicked by Tessa dare.
Emma
But Sherry Thomas also has a fossil, one Beguiling the Beauty.
Chels
But that one feels a little bit.
Beth
More integral to the plot because it's like, what sets her interest up with the hero, because he's also into fossils. Anyway, sorry. Keep going.
Chels
No, yeah, I think that was kind of like a similar thought that I was having. Of course, like, Duran and Thomas would kind of be together in this because Meredith Duran has a book called bound by your touch, and the heroine. I don't think it's fossils, actually. I kept thinking it's fossils, but I think it might actually be artifacts. But there's kind of a social stigma and isolation to the heroine's interest that she inherited from her father. And then part of the big plot point, this is kind of like how she ends up meeting the hero, which is kind of a hot girl hobby thing. Like the hobby, it's often the me cute.
Emma
Yeah.
Chels
And that's how it happens is Bound by Your Touch. The hobby is also a big part of her character development because she's inheriting this interest. It's like her father's occupation. It's her interest, really. I don't think she can make it an occupation, but she's inheriting it from her father. But a big thing of her character work and what brings her and the hero together is, like, is her father a forger? And so she has to kind of have this completely recalibrate how she feels about her family. It's like, you can't really. Sure, you could kind of replace it with a different occupation. You would have to kind of change a lot of the book. You could do that, but it doesn't feel like, as, like, control, alt, delete, replace, however, whatever the computer things are that do that. Kind of like how? With Beguiling the Beauty, where it kind of like, I don't know, but, yeah, I do really enjoy Ravished.
Beth
Yeah
Chels
We've all kind of made it clear we're not anti hot girl hobby, but it does.
Beth
It's just, how is it being used? Are you doing something interesting with it? And then also, Emma, at the start of the question kind of brought up that we think Merlin might be autistic. And so I feel like we find a lot of neurodivergent characters this way, where it's like they have this hobby and it's kind of a special interest. And Emma's said this before, but I feel similarly, I feel like the times authors are trying not to make a neurodivergent character. They succeed a little bit more as opposed to, like, here's my autistic character. Look at this person clearly not making eye contact and kind of hitting some certain traits that we could all recognize. But I find at least the hot girl hobby, neurodivergent heroines interesting if I read them that way.
Emma
Yeah. I wonder if Kinsale was intentional because there's enough here, like, the literal. There are a lot of people, when people speak metaphorically around Merlin, she reads them very literally. The special interest, the sort of black and white morality of.
Beth
She doens't like certain types of clothes.
Emma
Yeah, she gets itchy really quickly. So there's enough here where it's like, I would believe that maybe she is intentionally writing a neurodivergent heroin. But I also believe that maybe Kinsale is just, like, thinking of a person and is like, which traits would be coupled together easily. It's like, well, yeah, Merlin is specific about how she likes to present herself. She's specific in how she these. I could see it either way that conceals. Just come up with a person who has traits that are often comorbid and exist together, but also that maybe she's intentionally doing it. And I think those are more successful. When there's, like, an author's note of, like, I'm writing a neurodivergent character, I'm always a little suspect of, like, what's this going to look like? Okay, so one of the reasons we think the hot girl hobby works in this book is because the way that Merlin's sort of inventions and desire and drive towards innovation works with Ransom's fear of heights. And I think Ransom's fear of heights is probably one of the most charming things about him. And it explains really early before he sort of does the work on himself, some of his behaviors.
Emma
And as you're getting frustrated with him controlling, he has, like, the duke stuff that's less sympathetic. His fear of heights is very acute, and we don't get a lot of heroes who are afraid of things like this. We have Anthony and the bees, which we mentioned in Bridgerton. I think that's the one that I always think of when someone is afraid of something. Yeah, but why do you think this works so well here? And I guess everyone could talk about Ransom and his fear of heights.
Chels
Yeah, I am very afraid of heights as well. And this is annoyingly a fear that manifested in my adulthood. So I'm more primed to be sympathetic to Ransom because of that. I love how that fear really informs the miscommunication of this book. So Merlin is trying to show ransom the excitement that she feels with her flying machine in that one scene where she thinks it will thrill him to put him on the ascending seat. And instead he gets absolutely sick with fear and becomes even more convinced that this is how Merlin is going to die. So ransom is used to being in control and this is where he constantly fails with Merlin. Her interests are not even closely aligned with his in that regard. So he tries every single underhanded tactic he can think of to bring her around. She just doesn't share his logic, so that's why he dips into manipulation. I also think that in the 21st century, it's easier to think of Ransom's fears as silly. But he's never seen a flying machine before. To him, it's something that's, like, absolutely out of a nightmare and he's pulling out all of the stops to save Merlin from certain death.
Chels
And this kind of gets me to something else that I was thinking about where it's like I saw some people kind of talking about Ransom's unforgivable act was him destroying Merlin's flying machine and her plans. And I don't really see that the way that other folks saw that, where that was like him trying to hurt her, because at this point he doesn't know if she's alive, she's unconscious, she's going to live. Yeah. To me, I saw that. Read that as an outpouring of grief. It almost felt like Achilles parading around with body. Like, it's just like this big gesture, but, yeah, that's kind of what it felt like to me. It just felt like he just doesn't know what to do with any of these things. So it's just like this big. And it also happens immediately when he's in the height of his grief. I could see why you would do something big like that. So I'm not mad at ransom for that. Really?
Emma
Yeah. I think other things he does are worse that I got madder at him over. It's obvious to remember in a happily ever after, we know she's not dead, but he doesn't know that.
Chels
Right.
Beth
I feel like that's my chronic complaint. I'm like, we know the eventual ending, but the characters do not. Like, you always have to keep that top of mind. We want to keep talking.
Emma
Yeah.
Beth
You went being afraid of flying because I think this was you, Chels, when I came to visit,
Chels
it was me.
Beth
And I was talking about how much I hate turbulence and I'm getting worse at flying, weirdly. And you explained to me that the plane is in jello. You can picture it like that and it actually helps. All the way home, I was like, I'm in jello.
Chels
So, yes, you can't fall out of the sky.
Beth
So just, like, up. Talking about fears in general, just because you brought up Anthony Bridgerton, I feel like the most common type of fears is like they're afraid to fall in love. It's more of like an abstract thing
Chels
my feelings!
Beth
Yeah, I'm afraid of my feelings, which is fair. A lot of us are afraid of our feelings. And I can't think of many books with a more tangible fear. I'm going to reference this quote near the end of the book where Ransom's realized he can't control Merlin and he kind of talks about his fear. So this is him speaking. It's taken me until today to see it. I've run roughshod over everyone I care for. I thought I knew what was best, and I've used every advantage and prerogative and chance I could find to bend you to my will to make you give up your flying machine. And look what my will has been based upon. On fear, not on wisdom. A child's bugaboo instead of principle. So this kind of goes back to what we were talking about with he is a duke. He kind of has this power. So it's like if he is coming from a place of fear, he kind of has outsized means to manifest that fear and be in control. Which I find very interesting that Kinsale explores that.
Emma
Yeah. It's a good union of his irrational fear with the rational manipulation he's doing of both that he sort of has to solve both together with Merlin. Yeah, I'm also afraid of heights, but I thought about this and I was like, I'm not afraid on planes, but I think I get very nihilistic on planes where I'm like, if it goes down, it goes down, what am I going to do? And I could see Ransom doesn't have that control. If I were a duke, maybe I'd be a little bit more anxious about it, but I'm like, what happens, happens.
Emma
So something I wanted to talk about, too, just because this is our first Kinsale episode and this is something I think a lot about with kinsale, I've read, I think, like, five or six of our books now. So reading Kinsale is what taught me the words panster versus plotter. For those who don't know, this refers to the writing process for authors. So plotters think about the plot ahead of time, by outlining and a panther is like fly by the seat of their pants. And plots just happen. So they start writing, develop their characters, and then they just see what happens.
Emma
Generally, this is not the kind of thing I care about. I lean more formalist when it comes to my analysis of books. I just don't really care about an author's process, especially before I read a book. I would want to just read the book and see. But I learned these terms because when I was reading Kinsale, I felt like her plots were so organic. I think I looked up these terms when I read My Sweet Folly for the first time because I didn't know what was going to happen. The book felt so unpredictable. So I was intrigued. But how does Kinsale come up with her plots? So that's when I was moved to look up about her writing process. I'm sure other authors that I read do this, but Kinsale is the one where I think of when I hear the idiom and the one that I think, as you read, you can tell this is how she plots. I think, again, this might come back to the strength of her characters, that she just sort of lets them do what they need to do. Though I do see how it can lead to maybe one too many cycles of plots.
Emma
I felt like I wanted to spend more time with Ransom and Merlin, but I've read this book a couple times now, and I did think there were a few scenes where I was like, I think maybe if she had written it different, like wrote out an outline of the book, she maybe would take some of these out. I don't mind it because I love Merlin and ransom, but it does make for a different product, I think.
Beth
Yeah, I did find this on all about romance where they're interviewing her and they ask her this question, do you outline your books or write more quote on the fly, revising as necessary? And so she responds, "I do not outline. I usually, but not always write a seven to eight page synopsis which becomes more and more vague towards the end. I research a great deal and get many of my plot ideas from my research. Plot is far harder for me than characterization. Can you tell? I think I'm beginning to learn plot, but then again, maybe not." So this quote kind of reminded me of another term in the writing community to describe panster versus people who plot or write an outline. And it's gardeners and architects, where gardeners are the panster. So this seems kind of an apt description of Kinsale, where she absorbs a lot of information and then pursues what is interesting from that? Plot and characters develop from that. And I agree with Emma. I don't care as much about an author's process because I feel like it tends towards what is their intention. And I just don't care about an author's intention.
Beth
And it's like, most literature agrees you can't, or most scholarship agrees you can't ever really parse that out anyway. But I do think it's interesting to look at the product and be like, how has this impacted the book and my experience with the book?
Chels
Yeah, I had Emma explain to me a little bit more about plotting and pantsing before the episode because I think I associate pantsing with shoddy writing. And I was just like, how could that be Kinsale?
Beth
Right.
Chels
And especially when you get to really complex books. For my Lady's Heart, the idea that someone could pants at is crazy to me. But I also can kind of see what you're saying where it's like she has her seven, eight pages is actually not, to me, that seems like an outline, but to have that and then also kind of to have all of your research informing your work in a way that she spends so much time thinking about these details that she's able to write it without having to be like, and then this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens and lets all of that work that she did before inform it. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised, too, if Judith Ivory was a panther as well. I think that connecting that to Kinsale, I think that's really kind of made me look at the terms a little bit differently.
Beth
Well, I feel like if an author is going through multiple rewrites as, like, on their first draft, they can be like, this is not what's not working. So it's like you are still kind of outlining. You're just doing it in a different way, where maybe your first draft is more of your outline and then you just kind of work from there as opposed to being like, having a very rigid structure going into your first draft.
Emma
I think it also works with Kinsale, of which scenes don't happen. So Ransom takes the speaking box to London and gives the telephone thing to the admiralty, and then he comes back and there's a big time jump, kind of. I think at the first time I read it, I expected, like, we're going to go see Ransom, give the speaking box and we're going to learn about how the speaking box is going to be used and he's going to talk about Merlin with someone, but it's like she's interested in Merlin and Ransom being together. So I can see that she doesn't feel the need to write that scene, even though maybe in like, if you were to outline this plot from beginning to end, you would expect, like, okay, what is Ransom doing for that week and a half when he's gone? But it's like if she's following the arc of Ransom and Merlin's relationship, that scene doesn't move them forward any. So she doesn't write it. And, yeah, I think that's an example of this book where I see sort of like she's invested in the characters over the plot. So to go back, I guess, to the characters a little bit, I do want to talk about how Kinsale writes sex scenes because I noticed this in this book and I think it's true of a lot of books.
Emma
Maybe I wouldn't consider Kinsale, like, a spicy author, but she has a range. Like Shadowheart, we mentioned, is like a fem dom. That book is very hot and kind of took me by surprise when I read it. This book is not, like, super explicit, but what I noticed about it, I think this is also true of Flowers from Storm and My Sweet Folly, is the sex scenes are really long. I felt like we had them. They were having sex for a long period of time. And I think it's just that the sex scenes get really integrated in communication between the couple. I feel like a lot of authors, for better or for worse, sometimes the sex is sort of separate from the relationship. And I think there are reasons to do that, why people are not talking about themselves or learning new information during sex scenes. But I think why it's so long is because Ransom and Merlin are chatting with each other and learning new things about each other for these long scenes. And it makes for sex scenes that are not that explicit but are very sexy. I think. I think people commented when they learned we were doing Midsummer Moon.
Emma
They were like, you have to talk about the fountain scene. And I reread the fountain scene this morning. This scene is not super spicy. It's not super explicit. It's not like. I wouldn't put it as, like, super. I don't know. It wouldn't be a super explicit, top list scene. But it is very sexy because I think of how long they spend together in it and it just feels different. Judith Ivory is maybe who I think of. I could compare sex scenes with, or again, like, not super explicit, but very sexy.
Chels
Yeah. I just thought of two other examples, but then I'm like, oh, those are very sexy. I was thinking of, like, Coldbreat. She has very long sex scenes that feel very character building, for lack of.
Beth
Better way to put it. Are there less sex scenes? Okay, so what I'm trying to follow here in my mind is, like, the length of the sex scene feels, like, more seminal. Like, they hit this emotional point, whereas I feel like other books I read, they're just kind of like. And then they have sex again, or sex happens and then sex again. I'm not saying there's always a correlation between a disconnection between the sex and the romance and the number of sex scenes, but I feel like people who are more interested in integrating the communication, hitting certain emotional beats, have maybe longer sex scenes, and they're more like set pieces to me, in my mind, as opposed to.
Emma
I think set piece is a good way to phrase it, that it's like, this is. A whole lot's going to happen here. I think there are different thoughts about this, and I've been reading a lot about wallpaper romances, so I'm thinking about heroine attitudes towards sex. But I think that the way that she writes, specifically Merlin as a heroine who is naive but not repressed, is interesting because she's naive because she was raised by her uncle who was a recluse. So she doesn't know a lot about social dynamics and all the codes of Regency sex, but she doesn't have any hang-ups about sex. And that's one of the things. When he keeps proposing to her, she's like, I don't consider myself ruined. Who cares? If we're not going to have a baby? Which she doesn't even realize how babies are made. But she's like, why are we connected to each other? And he's like, well, this is not how you do things. So I think that, again, you learn that through the sex scenes. But it also shows, like, Kinsale's interest in having characters who are different and unique and well developed, because I think we get that Regency heroine who's both naive and sex repressed, but then also suddenly is okay with having sex, and that's kind of its own trajectory and trope.
Emma
But Merlin is sort of adjacent to that in a lot of ways.
Beth
Yeah. And it honestly makes perfect sense. I loved her reaction. She's like, yeah, okay, we had sex, but this affects my life not at all. Which is true. She would just go back home and keep inventing. She's not part of society. So I love that. The usual romance hero argument of like, well, I ruined you potentially ruined you. I need to save your reputation. She's like.
Emma
And she doesn't even feel like she's being noble about, like, nobody knows. And he's like, I know. It's like, well, you need to work on that! Another. I didn't talk about this at all, but one of my favorite parts with Shelby is that Shelby has, like, an appropriate reaction. So he thinks when he first realizes that Merlin has had sex with Ransom because Merlin just tells him, because she doesn't care. He's like, okay, Merlin is this woman who lives by herself. My brother must have raped her, which didn't happen. Merlin was willing to do it, and it wasn't coercive at all. But Shelby has, like, an appropriate reaction because I think sometimes when we learn someone has seduced a virgin, people are like, oh, you made a mistake, versus, like, you did something wrong. And so I liked that Shelby is angry at Ransom. I think that it was different. Especially he has an appropriate, outsized reaction, even though he then realizes it was consensual.
Chels
Yeah, I like that, too. And also because Shelby is supposed to kind of be a rake, right. But it's like, rakes aren't necessarily rapists. I think that happens a lot of times in historical. Also, I read the book the lies of the English Rake, and that author does seem to think that rakes have to be rapists because of all of her real life examples. His real life examples. Excuse me, but, wow, that was a weird segue. I don't know where it was going with that. No, I did like Shelby's reaction a lot. I think that.
Beth
I don't know.
Chels
It's just, like, another thing that Kinsale doesn't need to put characters into archetypes. She's like, well, I think that he would do this, and so he would. Whereas it doesn't quite gel with what I feel like some maybe less skilled authors would do, where they would kind of rely on the type, like, okay, shelby's degenerate. He's a rake. He's this or that. And I also another kind of side note, but how Messy Shelby's reconciliation is with, like, I think that that's something that Kinsale will just kind of let stand where it's like, he did do a lot of really bad things, and he didn't really redeem himself, but she forgives him anyway.
Emma
Just like, proximity, which I think is sort of Ransom's whole theory is, like, if they just could spend time together, they'll like each other again because they're in love, and he's like, well, just keep them in the house and they'll work themselves out, which is basically what happens. Also, he gives them a common enemy of himself because he's so mean to Shelby when he thinks Shelby has involved in the kidnapping. Jacqueline's like, well, I have to help Shelby because you've turned against him, Ransom. And then it works out. So our last point, I guess, connecting to something Chels said of Kinsale, again, being a talented author who can pull things off that other authors can't is like writing humor in romance. So we started this episode talking about hedgehog humor, which is what Kinsale, she calls this as, like her lighter novels, like Lessons in French, which is one of my favorites, is another example of this, though. I think every one of Kinsale's books I've read is funny in some way. Again, like thinking of Allegretto For My Lady's Heart. Allegretto is so funny in that book because he's so over the top. He's an assassin, but he's afraid of three things, his dad, the falcon and the plague.
Emma
And you're like, that's so funny to write a teen assassin that way. She's very clever. So something we talk a lot about as a group is humor and romance, because I think we're all kind of disillusioned with most books being published now because regency rom com, I think, is like, everything is regency rom com, everything is like, this is like Bridgerton. This is is, this is like when Harry met Sally, but they're in the ton, but we don't necessarily find them funny. Are we laughing? That's the question. I think authors, sometimes authors who are funny will sacrifice historical vibes for humors. If it's marketed as a rom com or a comedy, you assume that it's going to be like a wallpaper romance where we're not going to have that sort of historical buy in. They also have the cadence of humor. I was thinking about the joke from the Star Wars trailer that everyone made fun of where it was like the little droids are flying and someone says they fly now, and then someone responds, they fly now. And you're like, it's not a joke, but it's like we're saying it like it's a joke. But Kinsale writes humor that's so well integrated into the arc of the characters.
Emma
Merlin, Ransom are funny when they're fighting, they're funny when they're having sex, they're funny as the plot is going on. So I guess what makes this humor work for you? And also, how can we bring actual calm back to rom coms in historical I feel.
Beth
So I'm referencing something Chels mentioned earlier, kind of this like planting and payoff with Kinsale's humor. So it's not only that there is this hedgehog, but the hedgehog leads Ransom to Merlin the second time she gets kidnapped. So I think this enhances the reading experience where you might initially write something off as only like, oh, this is here as like a humorous element and it won't have any utility beyond that. But then you're rewarded to see this element being used in another way. So I think Kinsale does that really well. And I am a fan of quippy or quick dialog, but too often I think it's used to cheapen an emotional moment or it's like filler instead of having that dual utility that Kinsale does, where you might be like, you could enhance the relationship, reveal something about the character, maybe even move the plot forward. But it's just not that. You can't just have one off jokes. But I think it's better used if you can kind of do multiple things.
Chels
Yeah. I feel like whenever people talk about funny historical romance authors, they always bring up like four or five different names and they never see Loretta Chase.
Emma
Yes.
Chels
Literally so funny. And I think in some of these newer historical rom coms, slapstick humor happens a lot. And I think that that's just not very funny for me to read. I think snappy dialog where, my God, there's this one thing that I think about all the fucking time. It's so funny. It's in The Last Hellion where the hero is comparing his love interest to Medusa, but he said he only hardened in the usual place. I I will literally never forget that. I don't know. It's hard to be funny. And I think a lot of people are just. I think a lot of times it's kind of like slapstick or it's goofy or it's like a wink on the fact that this isn't really historical.
Emma
Right.
Chels
That's why it's funny. And I don't find that funny. So that's kind of like. Kind of where I'm kind of like, is it me?
Beth
Right?
Chels
I don't know. But yeah, I think if I was going to say who is one of the funniest historical romance authors, I would absolutely say Loretta Chase. And I don't think Amanda Quick does come up a lot, too. And I actually do agree with Amanda Quick, because Amanda Quick, just like, she'll come up with something and she will dig it into the dirt into a way where I'm like, that's actually very funny. Like, I'm thinking of deception, where the joke is that the hero looks like a pirate, but he's actually extremely boring. And Quick does not give up that joke. She's like, every chapter there's a joke about it. And I'm like, this is very funny to me now. I appreciate that. So I don't know if I have even really a neat thought to connect this where I can say this is definitively funny and this definitively isn't funny to me because I think those are two very different ends of the spectrum.
Emma
I do like your point about the winking of, like, oh, we're in a historical romance. Because I think I've heard that complaint about modern rom coms, too, that characters in a rom.com act like they're in a rom com instead of acting like, normal, they're living a life, and then we're making a movie about it. There's always this meta narrative of, like, this is what happens in movies on top of it, or like, this is what happens in a historical romance. And I think that's not inherently not funny. It's just like, if that's the only joke, though, you got to give me something more. I forgot Loretta Chase is funny. I should use her as an example of. I was thinking about The Last Hellion, the scene with Dane where he's, like, getting worked up to help Sebastian, and Jessica's like, he's married now. And he's like, you're right. He's her problem. And it's so cute because you're like, oh, man. It's both a true to character assessment, but also it's very funny to think about, like, doing his Sebastian thing and then realizing, like, wait, he's married. I'm hands off.
Beth
I was just going to say, I like that you brought up the rom coms and always feels like they're acting like they're in a rom com. Because I feel like people just don't want to be earnest. Just let the film be actually emotional and build the humor from the characters they developed in the situations as opposed to feeling, if they constantly have to weaken, nod to the audience, like, yeah, and it's because they're in a rom.com that this is happening, which I don't know. I'm not, like, a big fan of that. Then back to Loretta Chase. I think one thing I really loved about Lord of Scoundrels is she has the type of dialog I love where it's like quippy and they're snappy, but it's like Jessica and Dane back and forth. It's like part of their flirting. Like they're earnestly flirting with each other. And I just loved that exchange where it's not like winking and nodding at the audience. It was just like them having a good, interesting and awesome dynamic.
Emma
There's a line I think about all the time where Jessica, it's like I just want to kiss him on his big ugly nose. And she's talking to her grandmother and her grandmother is like, sure, nobody else thinks he's attractive, but she's like whining through, it's not really a joke, but it's funny. But there are also jokes in that. Yeah, people should try to be funnier, like make actual jokes.
Beth
That's our point.
Emma
Be funny. Read Laura Kinsale, and then you'll learn how to write some jokes. So thank you so much for listening to Refomed Rake. If you enjoy the podcast, you can find bonus content on our patreon@patreon.com reform rakes please rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps a lot. You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram for show updates. The username for both is at reformedrakes. Thank you again and we'll see you next time.
