The Jade Temptress

Show Notes

The Rakes read the second book in the Lotus Palace series, The Jade Temptress by Jeannie Lin. Set during the Tang Dynasty in China in Chang’an, the capital, the series touches back to the Lotus Palace, a school and home for courtesans. Mingyu is one of the most sought-after courtesans, and she crosses paths with the constable Wu Kaifeng after her protector General Deng has been found murdered. It’s hard to convey through a plot summary how well Jeannie Lin builds sexual tension, but like Emma says in the episode, every scene between Mingyu and Kaifeng is charged.

Books Referenced

The Lotus Palace by Jeannie Lin

Hidden Moon by Jeannie Lin

Three Nights of Sin by Anne Mallory

The Duke by Gaelen Foley

A Bride for the Prizefighter by Alice Coldbreath

A Gentleman Undone by Cecilia Grant

Works Cited:

Fates Mates interview with Jeannie Lin

Romance Divas interview with Jeannie Lin

Word Wenches interview with Jeannie Lin

The Demonization of Empress Wu

Transcript

[00:00:00.000] - Emma

Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that you could call first in an emergency, even if you were still in the enemy stages of an enemies to lovers arc. I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the Substack, Restorative Romance.

[00:00:13.740] - Beth

I'm Beth, and I'm on Booktok under the name bethhaymondreads.

[00:00:17.030] - Chels

My name is Chels. I'm the writer of the romance Substack the Loose Cravat, a romance book collector and book talker under the username chels_ebooks.

[00:00:25.260] - Emma

And today we're talking about The Jade Temptress by Jeannie Lin. The book is the second in Lin's Lotus Palace trilogy set during the Tang dynasty in China in Chang'en, the capital, and centers on the Lotus Palace, a school and home for courtesans. Lin has said that she was moved to set some of her books during this period because of the measure of independence afforded to women during the Tang dynasty. They had legal rights to divorce and to sue for property. Additionally, Wuxia films that Lin watched as a child were set in pre-modern China, and she found those conventions applicable to the structure of romance novels that she was also a fan of. The Tang dynasty in China is considered one of the high points of culture and art in Chinese civilization with relative stability during the first period of the dynasty, though this book takes place in 848 during the second half of Tang Rule, where political unrest were more common, and this is a theme of the book. The government of this period was marked by a highly regulated bureaucracy administration. Similarly, courtesan culture in Tang China was also institutionalized, where houses were developed for courtesan training, run by former courtesans and the women inside of them identifying strongly with the mother figure, with groups of women taking on family honorifics.

[00:01:32.900] - Emma

These women, though respected and admired, often came from poor families and were indentured servants until their contracts were purchased by men either to be kept concubines, or wives. The main characters of The Jade Temptress are skeptical but adept participants in their respective bureaucracies. Wu Kaifeng is a constable, effectively a servant cop for higher ups in the administration with a keen investigative mind. Sun Mingyu is the most sought-after courtesan at the Lotus Palace. But she is not yet in a place where she could buy her freedom. And if a powerful man offers enough money for her, she will have no choice but to accept her new kept role.

[00:02:13.160] - Emma

So we'll start with the plot summary. Constable Wu Kaifeng and Courtesan Sun Mingyu have a history. During the events of the Lotus Palace, he suspected her of committing a murder, and this led to a fraught and difficult interrogation, though Mingyu would eventually be cleared of the charges. They both have returned to their lives in the capital of Tang dynasty, China. Though both of them are questioning their places in their respective systems. Kaifeng's role as constable is pretty thankless, with power coming from serving his superiors politically motivated investigation, while Kaifeng's personality and sense of justice seemed better suited for a more beat cop role that earned him no honor.

[00:02:48.650] - Emma

In one scene, he's able to demonstrate to a butcher that a street child is not a thief of money left on a meat counter. When he's later able to determine the true thief, he balks at doling out any punishment in his official capacity, instead of suggesting to the butcher that the child work off the debt. Mingyu is similarly unsure about what the next steps of her courtesan role will bring. She's been the most highly sought after courtesan for over a decade, and now at 28, she knows she needs to find stability. But her options are limited. At the beginning of the novel, her madam has already received multiple offers from General Deng, a powerful military leader and a long time client of Mingyu. Madam's son wants to wait to negotiate higher with General Deng. Ming-Uu senses that this is her best option, but being one man's concubine would remove her from the social host aspect of her work that she enjoys the most, where she entertains groups of people, performing music for them, and providing social grease for meetings between powerful politicians and administrators.

[00:03:41.550] - Emma

General Deng asked for Mingyu to visit him after a year away from Chang-an. And when she arrives, she discovers his body in his office, decapitated. She sends for Kaifeng, and he is tasked by his superior to continue the investigation. Kaifeng has a very methodical and detached way of investigation. He is concerned with the method of execution, conducting experiments to determine the style of weapon used to kill the general. Because of values of honor and privacy, he has trouble getting many people, especially the general's family, to speak with him openly. His list of suspects is wide. The general had many political enemies, given the strength of his military power and the recent changing of emperors. But Kaifeng also considers Mingyu a suspect, even as they grow closer during his investigation. Mingyu mourns the general's death in private. Though the relationship was not based on love, he was a fixture in her life, and his death puts her future in even more flux. In the vacuum of her attention, since the general's death, Magistrate Xi Lun starts to vibe her time with Mingyu. He's smarmy, can work a room, but something about him unsettles Mingyu, and she worries about him making an offer for her contract.

[00:04:43.180] - Emma

Xi Lun makes it clear that he has admired Min Yu for years to the point where he has developed a hatred for the general over his connection with her. Every moment between Mingyu and Kaifeng is charged. He assumes that she hates him from their past of the last murder investigation, and she reads his laconic nature as judgment on her work. But while General Deng's funeral is going on, which Mingyu is not attending out of respect for his wife, Kaifeng opens up to Mingyu about his life before Chang-an and his own self-image, which she counters with her vision of him. They kiss, they both feel it was likely a one time indiscretion. Xi Lun expresses this desire that Mingyu stop going to banquest and general functions, indicating that he's preparing to make an offer for her to Madame Sun. He also gives her a painting he did of an orchid. This spurs Mingyu to visit Kaifeng at his home in the evening. Mingyu both wants to see Kaifeng, but also to show him the painting, which she believes was done by the same artist as the painting of her found in General Deng's office with his body.

[00:05:38.860] - Emma

She believes this implicates Xi Lun in the murder. Mingyu and Kaifeng both sense they're running out of time, where their association could continue in any way without extreme retribution. They sleep together, and Mingyu stays the night. Mingyu returned to the Lotus Palace. Madame Sun is furious and locks Mingyu in her room. Mingyu is able to escape with some reluctant help from another courtesan and run away to Kaifeng. Kaifeng takes her to a new property he owns, the purchase of which is not yet public knowledge. They discuss the possibility of running away together, but Kaifeng is uninterested in returning to his home province, opening up to Mingyu about the circumstances that prompt in him to leave. And he also points out the level of success and enjoyment she gains from the social side of her work, which would be unavailable in a remote province. In this house, Mingyu sees a painting Kaifeng did of Deng's body for evidentiary purposes. She knows he would not leave out important details and tells Kaifeng that the body was not Deng, since it is missing distinctive markings. Kaifeng is unsure of how to proceed.

[00:06:35.190] - Emma

Deng's widow identified the body with his clothes on because this was more respectable, but he does not want to contradict the powerful widow. They both conclude that Deng staged a murder and he's not actually dead. Kaifeng is able to get a servant in the Deng household to open up about the staging because his nephew was the body that Deng used to stage the murder. Xi Lun uses his power to press Kaifeng about Mingyu's location and then has him arrested and fired. Lun discovers Kaifeng's secret property, but Mingyu has the wherewithal to escape before discovery. She goes to her sister's home to hide until she can prepare to leave the city permanently. She's able to assess that her brother-in-law is more important in the government than he's letting on and offers to help him discover the actual location of General Deng if Bai Huang uses his power to have Kaifeng released from prison. Mingyu was able to embarrass Xi Lun out of pursuing her by copying out verses in a book about his virtues, which is ultimately a thinly veiled satire of his faults, pomposity, and boastfulness. By becoming a central gossiper of these verses, Mingyu promises Xi Lun that the social tides will turn against him based on her charm and social prowess.

[00:07:39.990] - Emma

And then based on the surveillance in the Deng household, Kaifeng is able to determine that Deng was hiding in his own mausoleum, but he's found dead, having died by poisoning a few days before his discovery. Kaifeng surmises it was likely his widow that poisoned him, but has no interest in pursuing the matter once Deng's body is discovered. Kaifeng no longer in the Constable role, decides to leave the city. Mingyu hesitates at leaving because her sister is now pregnant. And if she left, she'd never be able to return. She instead considers returning to Madame Sun and the Lotus Palace. The couple parts ways. After Mingyu returns to the Lotus Palace, she's summoned by the Widow Deng and the widow gives her a large sum of money, essentially buying her silence about the general's death and suddenly threatening violence if Mingyu does not comply. Mingyu takes the money and attempts to buy her own contract from Madame Sun, only to learn that Kaifeng has given Sun a large amount of jade to make headway on buying out of the contract. She returned to Kaifeng's new home, and they used the money from Widow Deng to start running a tea house where Mingyu can entertain on her own terms, and Kaifeng can use his medical and evidence skills to make teas for customers.

[00:08:45.050] - Beth

This book was so great. I'm just going to throw that out there.

[00:08:49.440] - Emma

It's really, really good. The couple is so fun, but in a fun, in a heart-wrenching way.

[00:08:56.260] - Chels

It's very dreamy.

[00:08:57.930] - Beth

Yes. I need everyone to know that in the Google doc when Emma says that every moment between them is charged, was like, all capitalized. I think that's the most accurate description of their relationship.

[00:09:11.250] - Chels

The sexual tension was just unbelievable.

[00:09:14.190] - Emma

I've not read The Lotus Palace, but I was excited to read this because every update from Beth about the Lotus Palace was about this couple. I see something between them. I see something between them.

[00:09:24.440] - Beth

Yeah, I messaged Chels. I'm like, This is the next couple, right? I can sense something in the water. But yeah.

[00:09:33.080] - Emma

Okay, so the first thing I want to talk about with this book is setting. I talked a little about the history of the Tang dynasty in the introduction, but did either of you find out anything else that was illuminating in the context of Lin's work?

[00:09:44.070] - Chels

Yeah. As I was reading the book, I also listened to the Fated MATes trailblazer episode where Jen and Sarah interviewed Jeannie Lin. And when she brought up women in power in the Tang dynasty and specifically mentioned Empress Wu, there's a moment in the book when Mingyu still believes that General Deng is dead and where his widow finds her and asks if she's pregnant. There's a false camaraderie between them. And then his widow says, I think of the stories of Empress Wu and Concubine Xiao, clawing at one another, sacrificing their own children for the attention of the Emperor. Mingyu then answers, "That was another time, and we are not those women."

[00:10:22.260] - Chels

Later, Mingyu tells Kaifeng that this was a threat. Xiao was one of Princess Wu's rivals in the Imperial Court. The Empress cut off her feet and drowned her in a vat of wine. So Mingyu sees herself as Xiao in this comparison with Deng's wife casting herself as Empress Wu, which stuck out to me because Mingyu is not really engaged in a power struggle with Deng's widow. Empress Wu was a very complicated figure, credited with a lot of the progress of the Tang dynasty, but in turn, is said to have enforced control through violence, supposedly gaining power through brutal acts and keeping it with the help of secret police she established.

[00:10:59.920] - Chels

In recent years, scholars have been revisiting Wu's reputation to see how much she deserved her bloodthirsty notoriety. Mike Dash in the Smithsonian magazine notes that, quote, "The imperial history was written to provide lessons for future rulers, and as such, tended to be weighted heavily against usupers, which Wu was, and anyone who offended the Confucian sensibilities of the scholars who labored over them, which Wu did simply by being a woman. It is a challenge to recover real people from moress of bias. Dash also states that Wu was, quote, The only woman in more than 3,000 years of Chinese history to rule in her own right, and that her methods would not have necessarily been noteworthy if she was a man, at least not to this level of notoriety. I don't bring this up to say that things that Empress Wu might have done before and during her reign are less awful because she's a woman, but to bring it back to the conflict between Mingyu and Deng's widow. This isn't really a power struggle between the two women. Deng's widow casting herself as Empress Wu is a commentary on her control through violence. As we find out at the end of the book, she's the one who probably killed her husband, largely as an act of self-preservation and defiance.

[00:12:14.390] - Chels

It's not really about Mingyu at all. It's about Deng's widow going to extreme lengths to wrest back a semblance of power over her own life.

[00:12:23.570] - Beth

I really like this story, and I think it shows how Jeannie Lin crafts the story where she knows she has to educate her audience at the same time. But the fact that Deng's widow uses this story as subtly threatening to me and you says a lot about her character. So I feel like a lot of everything or I feel like everything that Jeannie Linn is doing in her writing is serving multiple purposes at the same time. And I think that's really effective with the setting that she has here. And she has to teach us because most aren't really familiar with Tang dynasty, China. So yes, I really like this whole situation.

[00:13:08.520] - Chels

Just like the way that you read the statement at first and if you aren't familiar with the two women, you're just like, Oh, we're like these two people wrestling for control. But then when you get the full context of it, like a few page later, it's like, one definitely came out on top in a really brutal and gut-wrenching way. And so you have that time to be like, Oh, okay. And then Mingyu, of course, her whole thing is not reacting or reacting very calmly. So you don't really read it in her until she explains to Kaifeng, like the Deng's widow threatened me pretty obviously .

[00:13:45.380] - Emma

The difference between Xiao and Mingyu gets to something that Mingyu is anxious throughout the book. She likes aspects of her job as a courtesan, but she knows that she would not like being a concubine. And the distinction they make is that the concubine is the courtesan who has been bought out by a certain man who keeps them in their household. She knows that if she becomes General Deng's concubine exclusively, she's really going to be in this relationship with him, but also with his wife. And that dynamic where it's like the metaphor doesn't quite work yet because Mingyu is never actually in that triad relationship yet. And she doesn't really want to be. She doesn't want to be wresting for power over the general with the widow. She's like, I don't think I would be good at it. I don't think I would enjoy it. But she likes the aspects of her work where she gets to be out in public and talking to lots of people at once and negotiating different social roles. That's going to be taken away from her if she becomes an exclusive concubine to one man.

[00:14:45.810] - Emma

I think this metaphor also gets it like, this is like a future for her. Even now that General Deng's passed away, if she gets into the same role with Xi Lun or another man, that she doesn't want to be part of those machinations.

[00:14:58.960] - Beth

Yeah. Then I think she would have been under a lot of... The wife controls the concubines. That was my understanding or like, because they're in a higher position than the concubines. It's definitely not a role that Mingyu wants to take up.

[00:15:15.580] - Chels

Your job gets twice as hard because you have two people that ostensibly have some power over you that you have to, I don't want to say manipulate, but I think that is a little bit of a- You have to navigate. Yeah, navigate, I think, is more of a generous and probably true word here. Although Mingyu does manipulate at times, which is quite fun to watch.

[00:15:39.950] - Beth

Yeah, she's a master.

[00:15:43.040] - Chels

She becomes So much more complicated.

[00:15:45.050] - Beth

The other thing I liked about this setting is there is this mix of modernity and true to the past, like what is happening at the time. By that, I mean, you see at the beginning, Kaifeng, he's really smart. Emma mentioned in her plot summary that there's this butcher who's chasing this child, and he's like, You stole my money. Kaifeng does this little trick because it's a butcher and there's going to be like oil and blood on the money. He puts money in a cup and no film comes off the money, so he knows that this child didn't steal from the butcher. It shows us how clever Kaifeng is. But later on, when he gets injured after he's he's in prison for a little bit and Mingyu is helping him get back to health, he makes this like references. He makes a reference to balancing out the elements in his body. That exercise is good for balancing out the elements. I like that mix. I feel like Jeannie Lin is true to the time of what people would actually be doing, but also, I don't know, Kaifeng is smart. Him doing that little coin trick, I think, shows us a lot about his methodical ways and how he approaches people.

[00:17:02.570] - Emma

We were talking about the oldness of this book, something I realized when I was reading this. This is my first Lin novel, and it's definitely the oldest set romance that I've read. It's set in the 800s. I've read other books set in China, but they always involve some interaction with the West. I have these touchstones for historical romance that I'm used to because most of the romances that I read are set in England. I'm having this evolving relationship with worldbuilding where I've said I've hated in the past because I find it boring and that's why I find fantasy books boring. It's one of the reasons I love Regency romance. I love a genre that has a really crystallized world, even across authors. But in the last few months, I've grown really tired of books that center on the ton and aristocracy. In the world of The Jade Temptress, there are definitely class differences. The first book in the series is concerned to class-class romance, but the structure of the world is this administrative bureaucracy. The stakes really center on access and knowledge, whereas I feel like the question of British set romance is so often land.

[00:18:02.090] - Emma

Does this different system affect your response to the book? How does it change the romance?

[00:18:06.720] - Chels

I guess taking it back to the interview with Jeannie Lin on Fated Mates is something that I remember her saying is that older historical romances had a lot more variation in setting. Regencies have been popular for a long time. They were sectioned off in romantic times reviews and RWA awards as their own category separate from other historicals as far in the 1980s, which indicates that they're a decent percentage of them. But if you regularly read historicals older than the year 2000, you'll notice that we've regressed in imagination a little bit. Regency romance is so dominant that it's almost exclusively what people think of when they think of historicals now, where it used to be more varied, like Vikings, medieval, American settings, etc. Land and inheritance and property is definitely more of a dominant conflict in Regency or Victorian romance. And even though the Regency is set during the Napoleonic Wars, as we've noted on the show before, a lot of them are quite unpolitical or only deal with the aftermath. So you get more political conflict in these other settings, which makes for really compelling stakes. Also, The Lotus Palace is a murder mystery. And you could even draw comparisons to other books that have murder mysteries and feel a little bit more like a noir than your typical historical Regency or Victorian, like Three Nights of Sin by Anne Mallory.

[00:19:25.800] - Emma

I love the comparison to a noir because I was thinking, this book feels so urban in a way. And that's another distinction where it's like a lot of times in Regencies, even if you're in London, people have houses in the country or they're going to leave London to go to the country. Mingyu and Kaifeng are citizens of the city. And it's a big ask for them to go to the country and they're doing it under duress and they don't really want to. Even though it's set in the 800s, you have the sense of bustling city and that is their home and where they want to be and how they're going to make things work. Again, something I noticed in this book that is the access to money and property is something that's so different, even for working class people from Regency. Kaifeng buys a house. And he's able to do this, even though throughout the book, people denigrate his career as this very working class constable job. He's not in the administrative state in a position of power, but he's able to buy a home. And it's just one of those things that's not afforded working class heroes in Regency romances.

[00:20:26.170] - Emma

If someone's buying property, they've come into a lot of wealth or they're inheriting property, he's just able to buy a house. The question of where are they going to even live is that's so often the thing in British romances becomes the question is really like, are they going to continue to have access to the central government? Kaifeng loses his job. Ming-u has this access to the Lotus Palace that she's maybe going to lose if she's no longer a courtesan. This access of knowledge and information seems so much more important in a bureaucracy than compared to an aristocracy.

[00:21:01.160] - Chels

I think that's too, because these particular settings are so married to the aristocracy, because you do get... I think you can think of that in both ways, where how the Jade Temptress feels more like it's ingrained in the city, and also about the property and the houses and how other folks live. Because I've noticed too, when you read a lot of Regencies or you read a lot of Victorian romance, they really heavily sanction off the aristocracy where you don't really see them living or interacting. They're in their house, they're in a ballroom, they're at their club. They're the three things. And the interactions with other people around them are very minimal and almost inconsequential a lot of times if they're not within that same bubble or within that same world. I'm thinking of like, Marilyn Harris has her Eden series where she does center them around… It is centered around an aristocratic family, but it does feel like very much like that feels like a city book because there are poets, there are artists, they're servants. They all have their own part to play in the story that's not just a side character that says two words and then leaves.

[00:22:17.650] - Chels

They're actually integral to the story. I do think that there might be… Maybe some authors aren't as talented at getting outside of that eight-person bubble or whatever, especially when they're writing aristocratic families. Then we get to the houses thing, too. I think that's also like… Because we're still married to the aristocracy and a lot of these stories, I think that it can feel a little bit same a lot of the times. But then so thatis where it sticks out to you when it doesn't happen like that. Like in Alice Coldbreath's prizefighter series or A Gentleman Undone by Cecilia Grant, where they end working in a shipyard. It brings a lot of vibrancy to the story, and it's not less romantic. In fact, I think it's a lot more. I guess, especially just like, when I was listening to that Fated Mates episode, talking about the lack of settings, you would think that we would have more, right? That would be common wisdom, but it seemed to it's reduced quite a bit.

[00:23:19.390] - Emma

Yeah, I feel like most books coming out, it's like we're getting even more aristocrats. It's more dukes than ever before. All the dukes. There's so many dukes. Even as the books get more... I mean, I guess it's like we have more diversity in some ways, like people of color, more queer historicals coming out maybe. But the storytelling is getting narrower in ways that is maybe the class stuff is getting narrower or you have to seek it out from independent indie publishers or self-published stuff.

[00:23:54.440] - Beth

Yeah, and what we've been talking about, like you reference Bride for a Prizefighter where they end up they're just happy inn owners at the end. It's the same here where at the end of the book, they had their tea house. It's like the things that they liked from each of their jobs prior to it they're able to just do at their tea house. We've been talking about the city. They love being in the city. I think one reason why Mingyu didn't want to leave is because she does like parts of being a courtesan, and she likes engineering the social scene. She likes being involved. I think for her to imagine a life outside of that is very difficult for her. When they're considering running away, she's just like, Whoa. There's many reasons why she doesn't. But I think one reason why is she has this life here in Chang-an and she doesn't want to give it up.

[00:24:44.440] - Emma

Yeah, I definitely wanted to talk about both of their jobs because I just have this thought where it's like both of their jobs are the ninth century version of corporate jobs.

[00:24:54.250] - Emma

They have. There's so much bureaucracy surrounding their jobs. They've moved up the ladder. They're where they can be. They've tapped out of their middle management potential. Now they're both wondering about career changes, but the ninth century version of that. Kaifeng is a constable. Reformed Rakes' official position on cop heroes is no thank you. But we all like Kaifeng. I wanted to work through why we tolerate him and why we're okay with this constable position that he's in. I think one reason why we can tolerate and even love him is Lin's commitment to writing the Tang dynasty, not through a lens of modern day America. Even in Victorian set novels, a Bow Street Runner is not really an enforcer of the prison industrial complex. But when 20th and 21st century novelists take historical liberties, for example, the way Newgate often works more like a modern prison in historical romances, the cop characters really read like modern actors. And Lin doesn't do that with Kaifeng. We really have a sense of what a constable is in Tang dynasty China, and it's really dissimilar from a police officer in modern America.

[00:26:02.600] - Chels

Yeah, I've actually recently recalibrated how I think of this, and not just because of The Jade Temptress, but a contemporary romance called Unforgivable by Joyce McGill. So in 1992, Unforgivable was the first black romance, Silhouette: Intimate Moments published, which means it took them about nine years because the line started in 1983. So like the Lotus Palace, Unforgivable is also a mystery. The heroine, Patrice, reluctantly returns to her hometown and gets embroidered in a murder investigation, which is being led by the town's chief of police, whose name is Adam, her love interest. But like The Lotus Palace, Unforgivable is greatly concerned with abuse of power. And while the book might not sit well with folks who have drawn a hard line about reading no cop characters, solely focusing on that does do Unforgivable a disservice, both because of its place in black romance history and because of the goals of Unforgivable are not to paint the police in a flattering light. I have people that I know in my personal life who say ACAB proudly, but also haven't killed the cop in their head, surveilling neighbors and regarding everyone with suspicion. So recognizing sometimes the mantra is able to co-exist with carceral and white supremacist thinking and those that don't do enough internal investigation on ways they may be complicit in the system has reframed how I personally think about hard lines and art.

[00:27:28.630] - Chels

I wouldn't put Unforgivable or the Jade Temptress in the same category as an erotic Tessa Bailey cop romance because the former are interrogating systems of justice and prejudice. Well, the latter is a clear example of the ways white women mirror the oppressive behaviors of white men through proximity, power, and call it feminism.

[00:27:48.300] - Emma

Yeah. I thought about cop heroes in romantic stories that I can tolerate. Because, again, I also don't like having hard lines in art. It's like you can't interrogate cop systems if you never have cop characters. But this book reminded me more than any other piece of media of the film Klute from 1971, which is also a romance between a cop and a sex worker. But it also has a mystery aspect of it. Donald Sutherland plays Klute, who's the cop in the story, and Jane Fonda plays the sex worker, Bri. And she's a witness, and then she doesn't know the stakes of her what she's bearing witness to of the investigation that he's doing investigating the murder of a fellow cop. And it really is this man against a system. I feel like Kaifeng is also against the system. He's a constable. Lin makes it very clear that constable is not a respected position really in the administrative state. And his investigatory skills are often used to serve other purposes. He has these people in charge of him who are suggesting ways for his investigation to go. Even the investigator that he's the closest with, his superior, is aware of the politics surrounding the investigation in a way that Kaifeng is not interested in.

[00:29:00.420] - Emma

I actually thought about if Kaifeng, if this was a modern romance novel, how would his job translate and his skills that translate to modern investigation. I think actually he'd make a really great defense expert witness because he's so interested in poking holes in theories. And that's what his evidence-based investigation is really working. He's not interested in taking the accepted narrative about what's gone on with General Deng's murder. He wants to find the evidence in a way that is against the system that wants to clean things up and make sure that everyone who's in power stays in power. Because ultimately, General Deng, the whole affair rests on Deng confronting power or trying to seize power from the emperor. And Kaifeng is not interested in codifying or calcifying the power that exists. He just wants to find out truth and if justice needs to be served. And he ultimately abandons the investigation because he decides any further investigation is not going to serve anyone. He doesn't poke holes in the widow's admission. He accepts the implication that she was responsible for Deng's murder. And he moves on with his life. And also at the end of the book, he is no longer a constable.

[00:30:10.880] - Emma

He is a medicinal tea mixer, which is cute because he gets to use his observation of people to help them have medicinal teas.

[00:30:21.410] - Beth

Did we want to talk about the science stuff? You mentioned that he'd.

[00:30:25.680] - Emma

Make a good. I guess you were the one who read about the science stuff is not completely...Lin did not just invent the science stuff, the whole cloth that there.

[00:30:34.220] - Beth

Actually was. Right. Yeah, for people listening, if you haven't read the book yet, Kaifeng is... He uses methods that seem modern in a way when he's investigating the murder. But, Jeannie Lin did base some of the forensic knowledge that he has on case records she found of criminal investigations as early as the Han dynasty and through the Tang dynasty. It wasn't just fun. Sometimes I feel like authors will put in a ton of their research into the book, and you can tell it's just because they read maybe a book that ended up only being a paragraph that they just want to put more knowledge into the book. But I think I mentioned this before, how Kaifeng investigates the mystery also informs us of what person he is, that he is methodical, that he is more interested in truth. I think he says that in the book that he's more interested in truth than finding justice. Yeah, I just really liked how Jeannie Lin integrated this part of him and made it part of his personality.

[00:31:36.460] - Emma

Yeah, because the hero who is more science knowledge outside of their career is not unique to Jeannie Lin, but oftentimes it's like something that I feel is goofy. Like, when the hero refuses leeches, even though he's not a scientist, and it's like, why are you refusing widely accepted medical treatment? But Lin actually has all this background research to back up this very subtle characterization. She doesn't go on... You don't see Kaifeng reading a treatise to invent these things. It just is a natural part of the characterization. But then you realize with her author's note that it's backed up with all this historical research. Again, I think that speaks to the interest that comes if an author is interested in a non-Regency time period or a non-Victorian time period. We get all these other things that we don't necessarily get in other romance novels, both as readers who know less about the setting. Also, just diverse settings that things are different in different places. That when a Victorian hero refuses leeches, it's like, Okay, that's as much from historical romance as it is from history. Well, Lin is actually pulling things from history because she doesn't have this big basis of novels that are set during the Tang dynasty. She's doing inventive novel things.

[00:32:53.570] - Beth

Yeah, and she does say she obviously takes a bit of liberties and extrapolates a bit, but it feels very cohesive and in line with everything else that she's doing.

[00:33:02.340] - Emma

Yeah, so we can also talk about Mingyu's profession because I think there's a lot of parallels between how she views her career and how Kaifeng does. We've talked about a few books now on the podcast where the heroine is a sex worker. But I think Mingyu is unique in what we have read in the mechanics of what a Tang dynasty Pleasure Palace affords her and demands of her. I think the closest to a courtesan is Lydia from A Gentleman Undone. But even there, we see her already in an agreement with one man. She previously was a courtesan, a situation that Mingyu is about to enter into at the beginning of the novel. The systematic level of training and community that Mingyu has at a palace sets her apart. But also the respect given to her by powerful men is in tension with her really precarious status. Just by changing the setting, the stakes in Mingyu changed dramatically, even if her profession is not that different from other sex worker characters. Her power is not in subterfuge or hidden access. It is announced in her position. But she's still subjugated because she's effectively an indentured servant.

[00:33:59.870] - Emma

What do you think about Mingyu's profession and her characterization in terms of other sex worker heroines we've read, or in terms of Kaifeng's similar thankless position in administrative system?

[00:34:09.720] - Chels

So Mingyu's place at the Lotus Palace was actually quite similar to Belle in The Duke by Gaelen Foley. So in the Duke, Belle isn't just a courtesan. She's a Cyprian, which is the highest tier of courtesan. So Belle lives at a very large and beautiful house with her proprietary and has to go through a more formal education like Mingyu, although it is much shorter, to learn how to behave around powerful politicians and wealthy men. When she makes her courtesan debut of the ball, she's already highly sought after, so she's afforded a certain level of respect and is able to play her suitors and try to get the best offer possible. Once she's contracted to the Duke, her love interest, she utilizes her hostessing skills to help him make big political moves. So not all sex workers we read about have this level of power, but one thing you generally tend to see across the board is the emotional labor inherent in the position. I hate using this phrase now. I feel like it's lost a lot of its meaning thanks to the internet, but it is a really useful one that describes an exact scenario where you have to fain an emotion as part of your job requirements.

[00:35:18.260] - Chels

We're constantly seeing this with Mingyu. She's always thinking about her expression, what she's conveying, and being so careful to reflect back what the person she's with wants her to see. Lydia from Cecilia Grant's A Gentlemen Undone does this too, although her thoughts are a lot more cutting. She cozens up to her protector while inwardly thinking about how asinine his thoughts are.

[00:35:41.190] - Beth

I think Lin explores the use of soft power through these two characters who are cogs and a much larger machine. At the beginning of the book, Kaifeng interrogates Mingyu on her relationship to General Deng. He's been absent from the capital since the new Emperor took the throne. Kaifeng says she shamelessly used Deng's name for her own purposes while he was away. She responds, sometimes exploiting a man's power is the only influence a woman can wield. Kind of like what Chels mentioned with Lydia, we can see Mingyu using every tool she has at her disposal. She's in proximity to this powerful man, and if she needs something done, then it's a soft power she can use. Further on in this scene, Kaifeng approaches questioning from several different angles. He doesn't think she could decapitate a man, but she could hire someone too. She challenges him and says she had everything to lose by his death. Like we've mentioned before, she's ready to leave the Lotus Palace and that's only going to happen if someone buys her contract. Kaifeng's response to this is telling about his character. Mingyu says, I have everything to lose and nothing to gain from his death.

[00:36:43.810] - Beth

And Kaifeng says, Sometimes there is no reason. I really love how this book approaches people's work and how that shapes their view of the world. Kaifeng recognizes how justice is rarely served, how despite doing well at his job, he has to manage the winds of higher-up magistrates. Same for Mingyu. She measures all her actions to cater to them, and she entertains. The professions.

[00:37:06.160] - Emma

Also are the source of a lot of the mistrust and miscommunication between them. Kaifeng is always wondering what Mingyu, what is she actually being honest about? He really views her through this lens thinking like, I'm just another mark. She's manipulating me. While that seems like a bad faith reading. It's also not an untrue reading because that's her way of interacting with the world. It's that she is very conscious of how she appears to Kaifeng. She also thinks to herself like, What is my interest in him? Am I interested in him because he's interested in me because I'm so used to this attention? She also knows that his interest in her is in part because he suspects her of murder and has suspected her of murder now twice. They both have to take this leap of faith with each other. I don't know if in the book they really ever undo that part of their identity. It's not like they are able to extrapolate or extricate their profession from themselves and say, Oh, now this is the truth when we're together. They just learn to trust each other in those moments rather than saying, Okay, here is Kaifeng, the constable, and here's Kaifeng, the lover.

[00:38:16.370] - Emma

Here's Mingyu, the courtesan, is on here's Mingyu, the lover. They just take each other as they are, and it feels really organic and natural for that progression. It doesn't come at this big moment where they're like, Okay, I'm now going to separate my preconceived notions about your career from the moments that we have together.

[00:38:33.040] - Beth

Yeah, I agree. I think it happens subtly over as they spend time together. And I think that's something Mingyu values in Kaifeng is that she doesn't have to be the curated courtesan with him, and she appreciates how blunt he is. She doesn't have to try too hard to read what he's doing. And I think that must be really nice for her to take a break and then ultimately just be herself around him. It's just.

[00:38:59.610] - Chels

Like just the... Sorry. I'm just thinking of the amount of times that she was like, You're supposed to court me. You're supposed to make moves. And he's like, Oh, I didn't want to sway your opinion of me favorably.

[00:39:14.170] - Beth

Which is like, that's the whole point.

[00:39:15.540] - Chels

And she's like, That's what relationships are. Yes. Wait, you're...He's just so far removed from the game. He doesn't have any clue how to play it. And that's part of the appeal. But also, Mingyu is like, Okay, If I have to tell him.

[00:39:34.020] - Beth

Literally, at the end, she's like, This is courtship. And he's like, This is courtship?

[00:39:37.820] - Chels

Okay.

[00:39:41.330] - Emma

It's funny. We all have called this like a slow burn, but it's like it's a slow... The thing that makes it slow is the mistrust because they're burning from the first page. If they started making out the first time they talk to each other, I would buy it too. But they're both keeping each other at a distance

[00:39:57.040] - Chels

oh, my gosh.

[00:39:58.350] - Emma

Not because of lack of interest, but because they're like, Oh, how does their career interact? How does it interact with our relationship? Can I trust them? Can I trust that they're interested in me? The career stuff is really interesting. More working class people because I want to see how jobs affect relationships, which is crazy for me to say, considering I hate email jobs and email, email-romance novels.

[00:40:22.660] - Beth

Yeah, I think one moment I loved early on in the book where Mingyu touches Kaifeng and it's a calculated touch because she... And even she thinks she's like, I've done this before to other clients, essentially, but it backfires because she's the one who feels like something when she touches him. And she's like, Oh, my goodness.

[00:40:44.050] - Emma

Okay, so I did want to talk about The Lotus Palace, which we've mentioned a few times. This book is the second in the series. I've not read The Lotus Palace, but Beth and Chels have. As a reader of only The Jade Temptress, something I found really amusing is how annoying Mingyu and Kaifeng find Bai Huang, the hero of The Lotus Palace. He's Mingyu's brother-in-law, and there's definitely more than meets the eye to him, but he has a reputation as a playboy and a layabout who just got by his Imperial exams by the skin of his teeth. Much more of your standard reformed rake than Kaifeng. But so often in a romance series, I find that reformation or redemptions happen whole cloth. We were joking last episode that we recorded about a bunch of rake brothers suddenly becoming wife guys in succession and patronizingly giving relationship advice in a book after theirs. Even though I haven't read The Lotus Palace, I could tell Bai Huang's character, our transformation did not suddenly shift how everyone in the city felt about him. As readers of both, do you have any other connections you want to draw between the two books?

[00:41:42.550] - Emma

I think.

[00:41:42.790] - Chels

It's very important that people don't have a drastic perception shift about Bai Huang because he's a spy. You're supposed to find him really annoying. He played the rake or, I guess, played up and the joker really heavily in the first book. But the biggest noticeable change to outsiders in the second would be his monogamous affection for his wife, Yue-ying. He doesn't take up the mantle of consequence because as we see in The Jade Temptress, when he keeps downplaying his role, correcting people that he's just an assistant, if his knowledge and influence were widely known, his spy work would be in jeopardy. I did think it was very funny that both Mingyu and Kaifeng are able to suss out what Bai Huang really does, which catches him off guard and causes him to remark that they're perfect for each other. And then also another connection, which makes reading this book that much sweeter after reading The Lotus Palace is Yue-ying, who is Mingyu's sister, the heroine of the first book. And something that really tugged at my heartstrings with the relationship between the two sisters is the way that Mingyu would think about her when we get Mingyu's point of view.

[00:42:52.160] - Chels

So because of her birthmark, Yue-ying would never be perceived as valuable at the Lotus Palace the way that Mingyu was, and had a much harder life because of it. But Yue-ying is possibly the most precious person in Mingyu's world. She doesn't run away with Kaifeng at the end, even though she's very much in love with him, because Yu-Ying is pregnant and she wants to be there for her. I really loved getting this perspective of the relationship, and it does especially like seeing Mingyu in the first book and getting into her head in the second, it was quite a journey.

[00:43:28.110] - Beth

Yeah, I just want to echo what you said. It was really lovely to see Mingyu thinking about her sister so often and be in her head and get those thoughts. She buys something for Yue-ying at the apothecary to help Yue-ying get pregnant. And I feel like this is just like such a thing that Niun would do because she's concerned for her sister, out of habit. But she wants to ensure that Yue-ying can cement herself in this family because she married up, essentially outside of her class. And she knows if Yue-ying can provide an heir, then she's good. She's golden. And I don't think Yue-ying expresses this fear. She's just like, We've only been married six months. These things take time. But it's like, Mingyu, who's much more worried about it and buys some stuff. I can't remember what it is, but it's like some tea or something like that to help her get pregnant. And another thing that Mingyu and Kaifeng would totally know that Bai Haung is smarter than he lets on. That just makes a lot of sense. Kaifeng probably noted it in one of his notebooks and has a whole notebook on Bai-Huang

[00:44:35.070] - Beth

And Mingyu's whole profession is reading people. I love how they both clock him pretty easily.

[00:44:42.290] - Emma

They're totally independent from each other. They don't discuss it. Bai Huang is like, Oh, my God! It happened again.

[00:44:50.130] - Chels

He's like, I'm going to be out of a job.

[00:44:52.980] - Beth

I think they're just smart and they're close to him. I think other people, he's just at a distance that are like, Oh, there's the flower prince.

[00:45:02.580] - Chels

And the Mingyu also knows that Yue-ying, wouldn't fall in love with someone who was actually stupid.

[00:45:11.540] - Chels

Think that it has a lot more to do with why she's like, Okay, something's up with this guy.

[00:45:16.510] - Beth

Yeah.

[00:45:17.360] - Emma

Another connection between the two books is that both involve a mystery plot where a murder has to be solved. I'm a terrible mystery reader. My brain is like Teflon for clues, and I always get to the end of a mystery and think like, What? But I certainly enjoyed this aspect of the book, and I especially enjoyed it how much the ultimate mystery plot fizzles, which is actually a complaint I saw in some reviews. But you know how much I love discussions of justice and revenge and what we owe to each other. Kaifeng especially has to shift his idea of what resolution might look like at the end of the General Deng case. I think we see hints of this in the beginning with the two boys suspected stealing from the butcher. Kaifeng might at first say he was motivated by solving the accusation, indicated by his science-minded evidence-based way of absorbing one of the boys. But when the actual culprit is punished, Kaifeng seems almost deflated. He's not remotely motivated to move the case up to his superior, and instead, he suggests the child work off the debt. But in the case of General Deng, Kaifeng ends up with only a strong suspicion of what happened.

[00:46:15.280] - Emma

He knows that it is possible Deng's wife poisoned him because she had means and motive and some of the things that she says in response to his questions. But Kaifeng lets it drop both because it would be improper to investigate further, and he's no longer motivated by solving this puzzle. He's settled with a "that's the most likely answer."

[00:46:32.100] - Chels

There's this point in the book where Kaifeng tells Mingyu the story about his foster father. And what happens there is that basically, his foster father was framed for medical incompetence. He was a physician. He had a medical cabinet, and he was framed to make it look like he was being careless and he caused someone's death. But this was really actually a murder that he was framed for. So Kaifeng did find out the truth about his foster father and told him the truth, but this didn't really resolve anything. The culprit still got away. And then Kaifeng's foster father, after learning the truth, still died by suicide the next day. He tells me the story. And then she says, You've always been searching for justice. And he replies with, There is no justice. There are only answers. His backstory does a lot of the heavy lifting here. He knows that finding the solution and solving the mystery doesn't mean that things will end the way that you want. This is already a set belief for him before the book. I don't think he ever had any illusions about what his job entails, particularly because he's so frequently railroaded by the bureaucracy.

[00:47:44.460] - Chels

I actually do think Kaifeng has his own version of justice, which is knowledge and recognition, and is perhaps why he's so methodical in his job. Him caring enough to find out the truth and to recognize it does more service to harmed parties than any of the specious justice that would get carried out. So another thing too that I connect to this is maybe about… It might not just be about how Kaifeng feels about solving anything, but he brings it back to his foster father. I think that was a very significant story for him. So the house servant, Yuan Lo, Kaifeng finds him at one point after he had already taken a poison. Yuan Lo was in a similar position where he had just lost someone very close to him and was devastated by it. That is why he ended up taking his own life. Kaifeng is the one who's there, and he ends up giving him something to make him pass with more ease and stays and comforts him as he's dying. I feel like this wrapped up a little bit of the story of the foster father, like he having that connection with Juan Lo, who was alone.

[00:49:00.850] - Chels

And Kaifeng was thinking about his foster father, where he hadn't said anything kind to him before he died. He hadn't really let him know how he actually felt. I think in terms of justice as far as what is going to happen to responsible parties, I think that he's never really had any illusions about that. I think that he just has truth telling and he has rectifying his own mistakes. He has what's within his own personal control because he does know that he's going to get continuously railroaded by bureaucracy. He's maybe can navigate it to a certain extent, but maybe not as well as you would in a story that ends perfectly.

[00:49:45.920] - Emma

Yeah, I think he hints at the supremacy of parts of the administration and the power that certain people have at creating the truth of what the official story is. That's something that Kaifeng's comes up against at his job. There's a few different references to what sedition looks like in this dynasty, what it looks like to speak out against the emperor. The issue with General Deng is, General Deng is embroiled in a plot where he's maybe trying to take power from the emperor. After General Deng's body is found and it's confirmed he's actually dead, General Deng's wife and child have to leave the city in order to save face. And so that even though it's in this administrative state, there is this totalitarianism built into a lot of the plot. I think Kaifeng not even realizes, but accepts that justice is not going to come from this administrative state. Justice is going to come from these moments of kindness and grace shown to people who've done harm or setting terms for themselves. Justice for Yuan Lo comes from having someone there when he dies and also being able... People also, after the suicide, people ask him, Why didn't you call anyone?

[00:51:00.280] - Emma

Why didn't you alert anyone when you found him? And Kaifeng is very firm and says, That's never what I was going to do. I was going to ease this man's pain. That's a hard line that he has that I think speaks to his own personal conception of justice that is unavailable in any bureaucratic way in this dynasty.

[00:51:22.560] - Beth

Yeah, I think the most tender moment in that scene, because Yuan Lo explains how he has no one outside of his nephew. His nephew is the one who dies. He calls him Uncle, which is so out of character for him, but it's just so tender in that moment. Another thing I liked about this book, you mentioned a few reviewers complained about how the mystery fizzles out, but I feel like that's actually really true to how this story is approaching justice. I feel like in a pure mystery novel, you are up at night reading the book because you need to know who the murderer was. That is what's compelling you to finish the book. But in this book, I care much more about the characters and how General Deng's death would affect Mingyu or if she's going to be accused of murder, how that's going to affect her. I don't care as much about ultimately who the murderer is and justice, quote-unquote.

[00:52:19.710] - Emma

Being served. Yeah, I think it's like a... Because Xi Lun, the man who's interested in purchasing Mingyu's contract, he set up as potential suspect. He hated General Deng because of his relationship with Mingyu. It's like maybe in a normal murder mystery, he would be the one who has done it. Because the big reveal, there is a big comeuppance for him where Mingyu makes it clear that she's going to use all of her social capital to make sure that he is derided in court. And it speaks to how quickly wins can change for people because up until this point, Xi Lun had a lot of prowess, but Mingyu's ability to court favor is able to take things that were seen as virtues or seen as him coming up in the world, and suddenly they become things that everyone finds annoying about him. His charm becomes smarm, and his self-aggrandizing is now seen as super annoying, and it just quickly shifts. And so that reveal where the detective brings everyone together and makes the murderer look like a fool in front of everyone and reveals how they've done it, that scene is a social murder rather than the resolve of the actual investigation.

[00:53:32.670] - Beth

I love that, the social murder. That's great.

[00:53:37.620] - Emma

I guess one other part we wanted to talk about, and again, speaks to the things that Lin invest in that are different from a lot of conventions of Western set romances, is how Kaifeng's body is described, especially in contrast with Xi Lun. It's very striking when you're reading it because Kai Feng's body is described in a way that would definitely be like an alpha hero in a Western… He's tall and he looms over Mingyu. He has this really sad way of describing his body. He's like, There's no way that Mingyu finds me attractive. I'm not like the men that can court her because he's this very working class able-bodied. He's strong and large. While Xi lun has a scholarly body. He's svelte and looks like he's an academic, and that is the the male body that is considered powerful in this administrative state where you gain power through your position in a bureaucracy. But we just wanted to talk about that because, again, it's Lin adapting or rejecting some of the widely accepted conventions of Western historical romance and making them appropriate for Tang dynasty set romance.

[00:54:52.180] - Chels

Yeah, that's something that she bringing back to that Fated Mates interview. Again, that's like something that she directly references as the male characters were not perceived in Tang dynasty, China, as romantic heroes. So it was instead more of a scholarly type. So yeah, it's definitely a very different perspective.

[00:55:14.020] - Beth

I feel like Xi Lun is described as classically handsome, and then when Mingyu is thinking of Kaifeng, she thinks of all of his features and she's like, This doesn't really add up to handsome so much. It's just interesting. He's interesting to look at, and I love that. I don't know. It's like a half thought.

[00:55:35.650] - Emma

I love the idea that the Alpha Hero, the large, looming body is like something other. Because also, I mean, when you read Victorian novels, it's like if a Victorian hero has a six-pack, that's kind ahistorical. How is he getting a six-pack unless he's doing like...

[00:55:50.030] - Chels

It's from horse riding.

[00:55:53.020] - Emma

He's not doing like a cut. He's not bodybuilding. It's like this just isn't how bodies looked until people started to exercising, which is a totally 20th century phenomenon. We think of these things as like, Oh, this is what a Victorian Alpha Hero looks like. It's like, Well, actually, that's what an '80s, '90s, 2000s Alpha Hero looks like. I like that Lin, again, because she's moving something to a different setting. She's not beholden either to actual Victorian conventions or romance novel Victorian conventions that are sometimes more removed from each other than I think some readers realize whether the convention is coming from the time period or just the other novels that we read. Also, at a certain point, Victorians just didn't get that tall. How many six foot six characters can we have in Victorian England? They're not eating enough iron to get that tall.

[00:56:44.310] - Chels

Every duke has to be that tall. I do think, though, as you were talking, you do get these characters who have that large, looming size and are also constantly talking about how they are not appealing or how could anyone find me appealing? That's in these Beauty and the Beast stories that you do get. Although a lot of times it gets even more fraught because sometimes authors sometimes cruelly use scarring as the signal and not necessarily just like someone's face is asymmetrical.

[00:57:27.440] - Beth

Also, I feel like this time was marked by a lot of social mobility, and I think a lot of people moved up the social ladder as they became these scholar officials. I feel like Xi Lun is set up as the ideal. It doesn't make sense for her to go for this tall constable. I feel like maybe that's one of the angles that Lin is going at.

[00:57:51.740] - Emma

I guess to talk about the social mobility, you have the sense that Xi Lun also... It would be easy for him to be this privileged person who has a privileged background, but he doesn't really like, he is an upstart. And a big part of Kaifeng's backstory is that he doesn't have references. He doesn't have people to vouch for him. And that's why he's in this role of constable opposed to Xi Lun, who gets to be a scholar because he doesn't have... He hasn't had to have a break with his background, even though his background is also not super privileged compared to Bai Huang as the hero. But I think that speaks to, again, the administrative state is that your reputation matters so much and people being able to vouch for you. That's, again, when they're talking about leaving, it's like they would have to have this total break with their references. I think that it's a very working class aspect. I think that that does come up in some Regency and Victorian novels, not necessarily with main characters, but you talk about people losing references if they're working class. If you can't get a job if your last job won't endorse you.

[00:58:53.600] - Beth

Yeah. If a servant does something really bad and the boss will be like, You get no reference for me. Pack your stuff. It's devastating.

[00:59:00.240] - Emma

Then nobody is going to take on someone anew without a reference. That links them together. But it seems like that vouching is very important. And so, Kaifeng has... He doesn't usually hide his background, but he doesn't disclose it to people. He doesn't talk about his foster father. He doesn't talk about those implications. And he has to... It really sets his path in the capital city on a certain row. Certain positions are never going to be available to him because he doesn't have that access, which is not necessarily class-based. Like, Xi Lun is also not... He's up and coming. He's taking advantage of social mobility. He's not born into the the scholarly role.

[00:59:42.280] - Emma

Yes, Jeannie Lin, she's written, I think, like half a dozen books in the Tang dynasty, but she does write other ones set in China in the 19th century. But I don't know if either of you have read though. I think they're like Steampunky. I was looking at her website. They may be YA.

[00:59:56.680] - Beth

Yeah, I think they're YA, but they look interesting. I think, yeah, it's like this alternate history maybe. I might be wrong. Don't quote me on it. It out there.

[01:00:05.770] - Emma

One of them. But we love Jeannie Lin. We love her couples. I'm excited to read The Lotus Palace. I think that there's a third book that features by-.

[01:00:13.920] - Chels

The Hidden Moon! It's so good!

[01:00:15.700] - Beth

It's so good. Yeah, it's the younger sister, Wei Wei. So, Bai Huang has a younger sister, and she's like the smartest in the family, I think. And so, yeah.

[01:00:23.970] - Chels

Oh, it's cute. You'll like it. I think, Emma, I think you would like.

[01:00:27.260] - Emma

It particularly. I'm excited to read more Jeannie Lin because I really liked this book. I thought I was going to like this because Beth and Chells liked it so much, but it was great. I always want to read more things that are not Regency as much as I love Regency books. It's just always exciting to be somewhere new.

[01:00:44.820] - Emma

Thank you so much for listening to Reformed Raikes. If you enjoy the podcast, you can find bonus content on our Patreon at Patreon. com/reformedrakees. You can also follow us on Twitter and Instagram for show updates. The username for both is reformedrakes. Thank you again and we'll see you next time.