Interview: Sharon Spiak & Shirley Green
Show Notes
A clinch, if you’re unfamiliar, is the type of romance novel cover where the couple is embracing, seemingly in flagrante delicto. Gowns are hiked up, cravats are discarded, and hair billows from some unseen force. For this special episode, I got to interview Sharon Spiak, a former romance cover illustrator who currently costumes and styles photoshoots, and Shirley Green, a photographer who has shot many of your favorite book covers over the past few decades. Join us to find out what, exactly, goes into the making of a clinch cover. Visit The Loose Cravat for excerpts from this interview, along with accompanying imagery.
Episode Links
Sharon Spiak’s website - Buy a print from Sharon!
My interview with Sarah on Smart Bitches, Trashy Books where we talk about the For the Love of a Pirate cover.
Books Referenced
For the Love of a Pirate by Edith Layton
A Duke of Her Own by Eloisa James
Lothaire by Kresley Cole
The Hawk and the Dove by Virginia Henley
Desert Dreams by Virginia Brown
Transcript
Chels: Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a flexible historical romance podcast with one good angle.
My name is Chels, I’m the writer of the romance Substack The Loose Cravat, a book collector, and a BookToker under the username chels_ebooks.
If you’re not a historical romance novel fan and have somehow stumbled onto this podcast: a clinch is what we call the type of romance book cover where the couple is engaged in a heated embrace. This style was popularized in the 1970s with bodice rippers, and although it’s fallen somewhat out of fashion in the contemporary romance space, clinch covers are still utilized in new historical romance releases.
We’re currently living in an interesting and fraught time for artists, where the value of their labor is called into question, which is why I think now, more than ever, is a perfect time to peel back the curtain. What goes into the making of a clinch cover?
Today I have a very special episode for you: an interview with Sharon Spiak, a retired romance cover illustrator who created garments for her own work, making for a seamless transition into costuming and styling romance cover photoshoots, and Shirley Green, a photographer who shot many of your favorite book covers from the last few decades in her New York studio.
Please join us for this very informative and fun discussion about their work, and find out answers to questions like, “How long is a photoshoot?” “How do you get an amazing shot if a model is nervous, or inexperienced?” how the nature of the work has changed since everything went digital, and why Georgian historical romance covers are not as sexy as they seem.
You can find excerpts from this interview, as well as accompanying imagery, at TheLooseCravat.Substack.Com, which will be linked in the show notes.
So let’s get started with some background. This is Sharon Spiak:
Spiak: My mother was a seamstress, yes. I've always sewn. But then – then I did go to FIT, which is a Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City. And I have a degree from The Fashion Institute. So I was gonna go into costume but the romance thing happened first.
Chels: Oh, gotcha. Circled back.
Spiak: And then with my interest in costumes, then I started to make costumes for my work.
Chels: Yeah, and you were introduced to Pino Daeni was it 1980?
Spiak: Yes. Yes, I was.
Chels: And you were his apprentice for a year?
Spiak: I'm gonna say apprentice. Yes, I did everything. I went —I got costumes for the shoots. I went to all the shoots. I went to all the meetings with the art directors because his English wasn't so good. And in fact, back then it was terrible. He got better as the years went on, of course. Yeah, it was a great apprenticeship because it just really immersed me into the publishing world.
Chels: Yeah, and he worked pretty rapidly. What was it like working with him?
Spiak: He was very fast. I'm not. But yeah, he's a very quick painter. Yeah. It's a different – He painted differently than I do.
He painted on board more watercolor-like. But it was. But it was more of a loose, washy kind of painting.
Chels: Shirley, I saw that you were educated in children's psychology. How did you get into photography?
Green: Yeah. Well, it was sort of like an experiment that I did with the kids that I was working with where they just were in a really bad space and I decided that maybe through my professor if we could give them little throwaway cameras and they could take images that they would see in their everyday life. If something was interesting or nice or caught their attention, we would review it within a month – and we did. So it progressed from there and then we ended up renting dark rooms and watching them in the darkroom developing their images and seeing their faces and getting excited and enthusiastic about stuff. I realized right then and there I was doing the wrong thing. And so I transferred, I went to NYU. I studied – study in film. And then I worked as an assistant for two photographers. One of them was actually a very famous, well-known artist himself called Franco Accornero. And so I worked with them for a while and then I ended up running the studio and then I guess like the early – what the early 2000s it went digital. And they didn't wanna really do the change from print and slide to digital so I bought the business and started running it on my own.
Spiak: And I started working with her as a stylist. Yeah, we've worked together for over 30 years. I didn't wanna go digital either.
Green: I was 25. I was young, so for me the whole concept of trying to change into a new format was the only way that I was actually gonna stay in business. But the child psychology I think has definitely given me an upper hand in the direction of the models for the shoot. For example, I listened to your podcast with regards to the pirate shoot where it looks like they're actually doing it on the rock. With, so that was Nathan and Suzanne. That was one of the last shoots that we did that was Edith Layton's and she obviously would get some kind of detail from the art director and then Sharon and I would get together, I would choose models that I thought would be appropriate, especially if it's– if it's a really, really raunchy shoot you don't want somebody who's a newbie because it's gonna be a disaster. So you need to get models –
Spiak: Experienced!
Green: And they're comfortable and they know each other. And so that's where the psychology aspect of it came in for me that I was able to actually work with the models. You have an hour to do a shoot. So you literally by the time Spiak would get them dressed, get the hair and the makeup done and then literally have them in front of my camera. Ready to shoot. Sometimes we would have what, 40 minutes if we were lucky?
Spiak: If we were lucky. If we're lucky.
Green: Pull off magic! And then and then we would be shooting right after the other – I mean We could have 6-7 book covers in one day. So Spiak and I became a very highly polished, efficient team. So.
Chels: One hour is not a lot of time for all of that work.
Spiak: Oh, it's not nearly enough, but you know, we make it work.
Green: Every once in a while if we had a big author, a big budget then you would get 2 hours, but if it was just your mass market, your paperback you got an hour. If it was a hard back then you would get a little bit extra.
Spiak: Well I remember when I was painting and I was doing photo shoots. If it was a wraparound book cover, and there was another scene on the back they'd give us an hour and a half.
Green: Yeah, that’s true.
Spiak: We never got 2 hours, even back then.
Green: Yeah, we would get an hour and a half, two hours.
Chels: Do they tell you if you are doing a front cover and the stepback too? Does that something they..
Spiak: Oh, yeah, you're always aware of what it's gonna be.
Green: What ‘cause your front cover would be the couple in an embrace.Normally fully dressed. And then you would open the inside.
Chels: It gets racier.
Green: And it was like, “Oh, they have no clothes on! Wow.” It's a big scene. And then all of a sudden it's so completely different. Her hair is down and It would be a very different shot, you know, so yeah. It was a lot, but we did it!
Chels: Yeah. You mentioned earlier that you had to kind of pick the more experienced models for, for kind of the more intimate ones. Did they get kind of shy if they weren't or just maybe not as comfortable?
Spiak: Yeah, we had some trouble with that.
Chels: Really?
Green: Oh yeah, it could have been, it was, well–
Spiak: Some people are more modest than others. Let's put it that way. And some don't mind taking their clothes off in front of you.So it's. It's weird. It depends on the person.
Green: I mean, the thing that was interesting as well for me was A, I was from Scotland, and so a lot of the covers I was doing were like “The Highlander” and then bring in the part of the psychology into creating a safe space especially for the female models that were coming in because at the end of the day a lot of the time they might have nothing on– they’d be topless and but they be in an embrace with a guy so you would see her from the back.
Chels: Yeah.
Green: So her whole back would be exposed so there would be no bra straps or anything and I was the only – well it was Addy Parsons, I think, was the only other female photographer. But it was all guys.
Spiak: She was the only female photographer. That was it.
Spiak: And then it became Michael Frost, right? So. The one thing that I strived in my studio was every female model that walked in the door had to feel safe. So that you feel safe with the guy. They had to feel safe with the team. And that was one thing that I was like really protective of– and especially if it was a new girl that was doing a book cover then I always made sure that I picked a specific male model that I knew was going to be very sensitive to the situation. So yeah, there was a lot of give and take with a new person. But if it was a new girl and a new guy – oh my god! It was a disaster. So and 9 times out of 10. I would have complete control in who I wanted to shoot, but there were other times when we didn't and I'm like, “Okay well it's gonna be what it's gonna be.” And Spiak and I would be trying to get the girl to open up and loosen up and–
Spiak: Yes, cause if you got a young girl who'd never really done a steamy romance before.It can be awkward, and it shows in a picture.
Green: And then the art director would say, “Oh, she doesn't look like she's into it.” And I’m like “She’s not.”
Chels: Oh no! It's not really the vibe that you want for a romance novel.
Green: Yeah, she’s ready to bolt!
Spiak: She doesn’t really like this guy.
Green: She doesn’t really like this guy.
Spiak: But, on the other hand, when there's a chemistry between two people then it's always good.
Chels: Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, I can definitely tell.
Green: That's the magic. That's when we would get those extraordinary – they were amazing. Like you you felt at the end of the day that you just made a wee bit of magic and you were like, yeah, you go into Barnes and Noble to the New York Times bestseller list and it would be, “Oh we did that, we did that, we did that, we did that, we did that, we did that.” And you would be like, “Oh I remember that shoot, that shoot, that shoot, and it was great because you actually then got to see the finished result of what was the work that we had done. So it was cool. Yeah.
Chels: I found, I think it was from like James Griffin's blog, the cover for A Duke of Her Own that I think both of you worked on.
Spiak: Yeah, I'm sure I did too, yeah.
Chels: I did actually recognize that model. I don't know a lot of model names from more recent years, but, I think this is Paul Marron.
Green: I was the first photographer to ever use Paul as a professional model.
Chels: Really? Oh my goodness, I know that he kind of has-
Green: Yes. Came into my – he came into my studio as it was a casting and he had just signed up with Wilhelmina. So when I was telling you that we would use someone that we felt we would be sensitive. Paul.
Chels: Yeah, I know he's kind of got like a little, he's got a fandom, I think, which I guess is not that uncommon. I think because he was on the Kresley Cole’s Lothaire cover. So his face is everywhere when people talk about that book, from what I remember.
Spiak: Oh, very nice guy. And you know, if we knew we had a new model, a woman, we’d always put her with someone like Paul.
Chels: With experience. Oh that’s perfect.
Green: Gentle, like a gentle person who would be– I mean I mean look and a lot of these covers that you're doing it's the guys like grabbing her and so it's kind of like that whole kinda like macho thing going on. And a lot of the girls can get turned off by that especially like there's a fine line between the reality of it. There's a lot of the times where It has to look like they're going in for a kiss or they've just had sex on the beach and obviously there's none of that stuff actually happening in my studio but there had to be that sense of that longing or giving into the guy or resisting the guy or whatever it might have been. And Paul was one of those models that we used that he had that ability to know when to pull back. Like he wouldn't go in just for that extra – and there were some guys that did by the way and the few of the guys that kind of like crossed the line – they never, I never worked with them again. They never got back in my space. Because it's kind of like, look, this is not cool. So. Paul, just a sweetheart and just the girls just really liked him and they would always say, “Oh, I really like Paul. I liked working with him. This is my first shoot. Thank you for doing that. We're a family. We all have to figure out a time and a space where we can all kind of work together for that one and everybody walks out my door and they feel like they've just had a good time. Like I don't want any of the models to walk out and feel like they've just been traumatized.
Chels: Right.
Green: And you get a great cover. You walk into a store and you see that connection between the guy and the girl. You know, Spiak does the magic with her wardrobe, her dresses. And sometimes we have extravagant sets where we have to make a bed or she's sitting in a chaise and it all has to be done in an hour, you know. So we need to make sure that the models are going to work well together. So a lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes before you actually see the cover.
Chels: Did the first kind of step like once you're, once y’all are hired for a cover, it's, is it start with like you getting the galleys? Is that right? The manuscript? Or is that too–
Spiak: That doesn't happen anymore.
Chels: Doesn’t happen anymore!
Green: We’ll get a synopsis of it.
Spiak: A little paper that says “Well, we want this to be an outdoor scene in a garden with a castle in the background.”
Chels: Oh, okay. So it just seems like less work to look through.
Spiak: When I started, I had to get the galleys. I got the galleys. And we had a lot of freedom. We don't have the freedom anymore that we used to have. I had a lot of freedom to create the cover. They would give me the galleys and I would just –leave it up to me. They might say, “Oh, it's an outdoor scene.” Or they might say, “It's indoors in a bed.” Or you know, you know what I mean? They would give you few hints. And I go through the galleys and I'd find a picture– a scene. A description of a scene. And I try to go for that.
Chels: Was it a lot to look through? Was it the full book?
Spiak: A full galley, yeah!
Chels: Oh wow.
Spiak: A full, yeah, hundreds of pages, hundreds of pages. They were sometimes – they were three inches thick.
Chels: Would you skip to like a love scene or would you read the whole thing?
Spiak: I always skip to the love scenes.
Chels: Yeah.
Spiak: I very quickly flip through and skip to the love scenes.
Green: So actually Sharon and I have something to admit on this podcast with you.
Chels: Oh, please!
Green: Oh, so it's a little bit of a secret that we're gonna tell you first before it gets out there. We actually admitted it this weekend, out of the literally thousands of covers that we have shot over a span of 30 years, ask us how many we’ve read. Zero!
Spiak: I'm not a big reader anyway, but, you know, when I do, it's not gonna be romance it's usually self improvement or –
Green: “How to be a better painter.” So yeah, so can't say that we've ever read them. But we do pick models for the cover that then and sell the books then you guys get to read them so, I mean.
Green: Yeah
Spiak: And then the artist who gets the photos, they have to provide the background stuff. Where it is, the location, you know?
Green: I mean it used to be when we first started doing this, they would be like a whole team in the studio. It would be the art director, the editor, maybe the publicist, sometimes the author, and then the artist. There would be an additional four to five people in the studio for the shoot and then me, my assistant, and Spiak. And so it was a lot of people involved for a one hour shoot, so we could get a little noisy. It could get a little chaotic because there was a lot of people. You would think that they would come to the studio and have a plan of what was going to happen or what would be the synopsis that we would have to recreate. You would think that they would have that. And sometimes they did and then all of a sudden they would change their mind because then Spiak would come in with a variety of dresses, and they would decide that they wanna do something really different. And it would set everything all into chaos, and we would have to try and figure out how to make it work. And then there would be a lot of shoots that Spiak and I did where it was just her and I and the models and they actually were the best shoots because we had complete freedom to create the shoots that we wanted to do.The models would get in sync with each other. It wasn't so messy. And then towards the end, I think they realized they really didn't need to be at the studio: it wasn't necessary – Spiak and I actually could do it. So then the pandemic obviously where nobody was coming into the studio and it would be a Zoom with the art director and the editor and the artist. But I would say for a majority of the covers that we did for a very long time, it was Spiak and I.
Spiak: Yeah.
Green: We essentially did the cover they would send us a sketch.
Spiak: We actually have more experience than they do.
Green: So they would send us a sketch and then they would say use “Use your own creative liberty to do–” and then I would set it up, I would do what they wanted and I would tell them, “I don't like it, it doesn't work, their bodies don't feel right. This is what I'm gonna do and I think it's gonna be better.” And that's what ended up happening. So like that cover for example where Nathan's basically got Suzanne it looks like they're on a rock. I mean, how uncomfortable.
Spiak: It wasn’t a very comfortable place.
Green: You know, but that was the pirate who loved me. So, and then her hair up, her hair down, his shirt on, his shirt off. Like you know her leg open enough so that he could come in between her like all of this stuff was happening. And then Derek James, who was the artist on that, he wasn't at the shoot for that. It was just Spiak and I. We did that cover. But then you put Nathan and Suzanne in a shoot together. No offense seriously, they could do an Amish shoot and we would have to separate them. Like they just such intense chemistry that, it was always a really sexy shot. Always.
Chels: Yeah, I'm looking at it now. It's gorgeous. Did you, and so you did this in a studio, so like was a kind of like. Like kind of like angling them to make it look like they were leaning on rocks?
Green: Yeah, we had to build like we would have props that we would build for her to sit on and then– and these are the types of models that you would use, someone who was experienced because she had to arch her back. You know, she was bringing Nathan into her chest, things like that.
Spiak: Yeah, we, we would, build something that simulated you know, rock or a hill or, you know.
Green: And then position her so that her leg would be higher and then she would arch her back and we'd make it.
Spiak: Yep, there you go.
Green: She was sitting on a box and he was right between her legs. She's on her toes, her legs behind her, she's bending her back. Yeah, I don't think it's supposed that you could hold for a long time, you would probably start to kind of spasm and stuff, but, again, that's when you use an experienced model like Suzanne. She had to make that shot work. Nathan? I don't know, maybe I'm gonna get into trouble for saying this Spiak, correct me if I'm really screwing up here but, a lot of the times the guy is just a really good bulky, big muscles, great back, nice bum and a pair of tight black trousers– but the girl, she's the one that has to ooze all the sensuality. She is the one that has to almost look like she's having an orgasm. You know, mouth slightly open, eyes closed. Like a lot of the times they would actually say, “You need to look like you've just had an orgasm.” So she had to sort of have all these emotions on our face. Nathan is just Nathan. Nathan's hot and sexy is a good looking guy. He's got a great body. He doesn't have to do that much. Take his shirt off. The guy's got a great body. But Suzanne, she was the one that had to do a lot of the work for that shoot. Look, cause he's Nathan primarily. If you think about that, shoot, you're just seeing him slightly profile and his back. Yeah. And it's her. She's the one that looks like she's sitting on a rock, and she’s just been taken by this prince. And she was uncomfortable, but it worked because it gave her that sense of urgency and you know her head being tilted back,and the sort of slight– You know Spiak would always go up and say, “You need to arch your back, you need to arch your back.” And so then she would go up to the female models and she would kind of like put her hand on their back and bend them in position.And then he would just go straight in because it was like a timing you only had a minute or two and then obviously she would have to straighten her back back up again because it would be uncomfortable.
Spiak: And I would always have to readjust the skirts and the necklines of everything and make sure that everything was looking right.
Green: Yeah, we have to see enough leg so you have to lift the dress up, and how much leg did you show and sometimes it was too much leg. And then Spiak would have to pad all in the inside so it didn't look like she was wearing like a big diaper. “Oh wow, she looks like she's pregnant. We can't have that.”
Spiak: Especially in the Regency dresses.
Chels: Oh yeah, the empire waist.
Green: Yes, yeah. And especially if you're sitting in a Regency dress because of the empire.It's right under the bust line. You know, Spiak would be like padding it and making it flat and oh my god, it was too funny.
Chels: Oh, that's so funny because I was – there's actually, a lecture from you, Spiak, that's on, YouTube and during the lecture you're like showing like some photos and during the lecture you're like showing like some photos and of Fabio and another model who I’m not familiar with.
Spiak: Oh, was it in the, was it in the library? Yeah.
Chels: Yes, I believe so. It's somebody said something like exactly the same, like “He doesn't look like he's doing any work.” And then you were like, “They never do.”
Spiak: Fabio never did much work except when he was carrying a girl.The girl always did the work with that. Always. Unless like I said, he was picking her up and carrying, which I have several that I used him for for that.
Chels: He was good at hoisting.
Chels: I have a few issues of the Romantic times from 1993. And there is, a Mr. Romance paperback cover model pageant that you were judging, Spiak
Spiak: Yes, yes, I was a judge in many of them. Okay.
Chels: And you also provided the costumes. So you were kind of like, double duty on that.
Spiak: Yes. I was always double duty. Yeah.
Chels: How often did that happen? Or how many times did you do?
Spiak: Every year. There was one, once a year, a big convention. And they don't do them anymore. It just doesn't happen anymore like that. I mean, it was huge. We did amazing stuff. I mean, there was always the cover model pageant for the guys, and then there was – there were tons of events. They were fun. I love the conventions.
Green: Yeah, you, she actually did a trip to Scotland.
Chels: Oh my gosh, like was it on was it like – I saw that you mentioned cruise somewhere.I don't know if that was a cruise or was that was a cruise?
Spiak: Yeah, we did, yeah, we did cruises too.
Green: Yeah, but you know, Scotland, I mean, I would say, oh, a good third of my covers it's a castle in the background. It's the highlands, it's a guy in a kilt. It's, you know, it's kind of like your Outlander.
Spiak: I think it used to be – there's more Regency now.
Chels: Yeah.
Spiak: But the historicals that I did, I never did a Regency by the way. I never painted it.
Green: Really?
Spiak: Never. No, I did all the real historical romances, a lot of medieval.
Green: Western, looks like you've got.
Spiak: And I do a lot of Western, yes. But they had the bigger budgets, those historicals. They really did.
Green: Well, I think Regency is making a comeback also because of Bridgerton as well. Like a popularity about that. Yes. I find it fascinating that young women are into the original paintings as well, that’s one thing we learned from Suzie the other day, from Smart Bitches.
Spiak: Do you know Suzie?
Chels: I don’t think I’ve ever met Suzie, I've talked to Sarah from Smart Bitches.
Spiak: The first time I met her was just the other day at a gallery opening.
Chels: And this is Edith's daughter. Edith Layton’s daughter?
Green: Yes.
Spiak: Yeah. And she said that there's a big group of younger women that are into the old ones.
Chels: I can attest to that. On Instagram, they're really popular. People love to repost the covers. There are hashtags like #coverlustfriday and #stepbacksaturday and then everybody posts–
Spiak: Oh, I'd like to be a part of that!
Chels: Oh, yeah, they'd love to have you, I’m sure!
Spiak: I get hundreds of them.
Chels: Yeah, it's, I see, I see, I see obviously I see both of y’alls work on there all the time.
Yeah, so there's a big, yeah, I think there's kind of a big craving for more clinch covers more, like people on covers–
Spiak: And not cartoon characters!
Chels: Yeah, cause a lot of publishers have kind of moved towards doing that because a few, a few books had like really big–
Spiak: I hate those cartoon character covers.
Chels: They're not my favorite.
Spiak: We want real. We want something that you can touch. You know, they used to bump up the covers. To literally bump them up, so that they had dimension. Embossed! I used to get letters from readers saying, “Oh, I can feel his muscles.”
[Laughter]
Spiak: They like that. Those covers cost a lot of money.
Chels: Yeah it seems like they just kind of don't —They don't budget for that anymore and they're a lot more are in house.I think kind of something that we – you mentioned earlier, I've kind of see this year come up a lot as like 2000 is kind of like where they said like the hard shift was kind of to digital. I know that a lot of folks that didn't have any interest in working digitally retired that year.
Spiak: Yup, they were all old!
Chels: Was there like a, Was there like a “Hey, we're not doing this anymore” or was it just kind of like a gradual?
Spiak: No, no, it was a gradual change.
Green: No, because, when I first started working, it was… you had two choices of how you wanted to do your shoot. It was either slides. And it could be 35mm or 2 and a quarter. So it was either I would shoot with my Hassleblad so that would give you like a 2 and a quarter, or it would be 35mm, or it would be black and white. And then if it was black and white which was which was if you think about the stuff that Spiak painted – So you would do a black and white shoot and I would then go into the dark room. Sometimes I'd be doing 7-8 shoots a day black and white. I would then go into the dark room, develop the film, make a contact sheet, give that to the client, Fedex it. That would be like, maybe 2 days. They would get the contact sheet. Then they would call me with the images that they wanted. So it'd be what we would call a “jumbo.” It'd be an 8x10 close up of both the faces of the models. Again, obviously black and white. And then we would do an 11x14, which would be full frame of the models. Now, because it was shot in black and white and they would get black and white images, that was in a day when the illustrator really did the illustration. It could be the models would look nothing like the pictures that I took. Nothing. They had complete, like – the guy could have blonde hair, but he would end up with dark hair, or a ponytail, or the girl could have dark hair and it would end up being beautiful raven or red hair because it was a black and white. And then with the digital, it changed everything. We had no choice because the art director's basically demanded it.
Spiak: Yeah, they didn't have the imagination that the artists have.
Green: Yeah, but also what it did was when everything went digital the artists themselves had to learn how to do Photoshop. I did the shoot to when the artist would theoretically get the images that they could then start painting could sometimes take a week. Five days. Digital: I would have the images to them by the end of the day. On WeTransfer, and then everything would be sent on a DVD the next day. So there it was much more efficient to shoot digital, you were getting the images much faster.
Spiak: Everything was faster.
Green: The artist could, you know, be coming from Philadelphia and be looking at the images on the train going back home. But what it did was it changed the whole format in the sense that everything then became super specific. If we needed someone who had blonde hair, we had to get someone who had blonde hair. So it made it more efficient but it also created other problems as well.I missed it–the idea of being in my dark room. I missed the idea of having that, where you felt like you were actually more of a photographer. It was like this is what I was creating. But I do – I find shooting digital I shoot using the capture software. So every time I take a picture, it automatically shows up in my computer. So if I wanna go back, I'll say to the models, “Can you come and look at this?” And we can maybe sit and scan like 30 shots and I can tell them where, maybe I'm not feeling it and I'll say, “Look, can you see this shot here?” Can you see what's going on?” And they're like, “Oh yeah, I get it. Yeah, I can see it.” So I think that's helped like a lot of the inexperienced models when they actually get to see themselves on the computer. They can tell themselves that it's not working out. And then Spiak's like, “You know, you have to tilt your head this way, you're tilting your head that way, you need to bring your shoulder back so you can open up your chest to the camera.” So in that aspect the digital was able– it was a great format to teach.
Spiak: It's a good tool. Yeah, for sure.
Green: Yeah, I don't mind actually. I'm cool with it.
Spiak: I just never wanted to learn it.
[Laughter]
Green: But we didn't have a choice. I mean, your question, we didn't, it wasn't like we could be, “No way I'm sticking to the old school way of doing things!” You would have been out of business and you wouldn't have any – no illustrator would work with you.
Spiak: And of course I wasn't painting anymore, so for me it was great. Now I paint pet portraits and people portraits.
Green: We are going in on, we're going in on Wednesday to do another historical Regency for Kensington. And the girl that I'm using Cass, I've used Cass since she was a teenager. Cassie. And so a lot of the models I get to see all the different, you know, I got to see her as a high school student and then, you know, now she's married and so we have these familial relationships with a lot of the models that we work with. So it's kind of like going back to revisit and then you see the kind of metamorphosis of Cassie when I used to shoot a lot of the Young Adult stuff for Scholastic. And now she's moved on and now she's doing the sexy clinches for the Regency. So it's, you know, it's, I like it. Like we grow up together.
Chels: Yeah, that's – that's really great like a long term partnership because like with her and then also with both of you together like because you've worked together for so long it's kind of like this tightly oiled machine, like you know how you work well.
Green: Exactly. Oh yeah. Oh, Sharon and I can have like a major bitching session. We can be like fighting like an old couple and like “What do you mean? I need this. What's going on? Sharon!” And then the shoot starts and it's like, ”Okay! Time to get it together.” And then we produce the magic, we get the shot and it's done and it's like okay time to go get a cocktail. And we've done our job and then we walk away and we pass it on to the next person and then they get to do their job and on and on and on it goes and then you see the finished product. James was always brilliant — James Griffin. I have pretty much every finished cover that I ever did with him. So I would then pass it on to the agency so that the models themselves could, you know, keep it for themselves or give it to their mom or their grandparents. One of the guys that we know, he would buy them every year and give them to his grandmother for Christmas.
Spiak: That's cute. Yeah.
Green: And there were lots by the way. And a lot of them he was partially dressed and but she loved it. She loved to get all the covers of her grandson and all the book covers. She's got an entire bookcase.
Chels: I would absolutely do that if I was on the cover or someone I knew was the cover it would be like “Here's my portfolio of you.”
Green: Do you know who, do you know who Emmanuel Fremin is? He's a French model: longish hair, very sexy.
Chels: The name isn't familiar, but do you know like a cover that he's been on?
Green: I can get you one of the really sexy covers that we did where he was in a bathtub with with Evva. [To Spiak] Remember you did that one? But, that was hot actually, but I can remember leaving with Emmanuel, cause he's actually a really good friend of mine and he got stalked in Union Square in New York City by these like groupies, who basically had like an entire fan page. Just for his covers. Like they knew he was. And they started showing him all the different links that they have for all his covers and he was just absolutely petrified.
Chels: Oh no!
Green: And he was like, “Oh my god, this is so bizarre.” And they had like every cover that we've ever shot with Emmanuel for years, like they just, he was like their Fabio, and he had no idea that they were actually creating this entire website just of all his covers. It was hysterical.
Chels: Just like if he's not doing conventions like they were in the nineties, then he probably was just like, “Where is this coming from?”
Green: Yeah,he had no clue. They were just fascinated by him and he had the longer blonde hair and Emmanuel was French.He just had to open his mouth and talk and the girls wouldn't remember.
Spiak: Yeah, but, I did a lot of Fabio’s.
Chels: I have a few of yours. And I saw on your website, too.
Spiak: Yeah. Yeah. Oh.
Chels: I was like the Hawk and the Dove, I think. This Virginia Henley. I've got that one.
Spiak: Oh yeah, absolutely. That's a good one. Here's one, that’s a Fabio. Can you see it?
Chels: Oh, is that Desert Dreams? Oh, that's, oh, that dress is beautiful.
Spiak: I made that dress. It wasn't green.
Chels: Yeah, I was gonna ask that's gorgeous. What color was it?
Spiak: It was kind of a mauve color.
Chels: Oh wow. And is this– this is a Western?
Spiak: This is a Western, yes.
Chels: By– Desert Dreams by Virginia Brown. Oh, that's gorgeous.
Chels: So what type of, what type of historical is your favorite to do? I know Regencies are super popular now, but like –
Spiak: I like the medieval and the western. Western's fun.
Green: Very few Westerns nowadays are a clinch. It's more just the guy.
Spiak: Cowboy.
Green. Cowboy. All cowboys. Oh, I would–Yeah. I would
Spiak: But I also like the Georgian era. I've made a lot of dresses of the Georgian era.
Green: Very extravagant. Yeah, they're very extravagant.
Spiak: Yeah, they're much fancier.
Green: I like the Georgian for the women's costumes. I didn't like so much for the men.
Spiak: They were fussy.
Green: A little fussy.
Chels: Yeah, they would usually just have their shirt off anyway, right? Or just like–
Green: Yeah, that sometimes they wanted the little shoes with the buckles and the knickerbockers and the long socks. Guys just don’t look sexy in them.
Chels: It would cover up the feet though!
Green: Yes, but I just didn’t touch them.
So. I would actually have to say I think my favorite is… I would say Regency, actually. Yeah, because you're– there's just something so simple and elegant and when you get like a really good model. It just is – you feel like you've just shot a little bit of magic. Especially if you have – It's more of a beauty shot for me with the girl. It's just you know you I have like a specific lighting that I would use for the girl and I just, yeah, I mean I do everything from… everything. I mean, I shoot paranormal, sci-fi, western, historical, kilts, Scots, action, you know, I did all the Jason Bourne, I did a lot of James Patterson, I've done all the vampires, you name it, I've done it. I’ve done lesbian vampires, I've done– we did a lesbian romance Regency. That was a new one, we did that last year. Which was two girls that I had to use for that and I actually knew them, and I had them come in and they're gay and they were completely happy to do it.
Spiak: What about the Amish?
Green: Oh, we do the Amish ones. They’re a trip.
Spiak: Have you seen the Amish romances?
Green: There is no such thing as an Amish romance. They don't exist. They don't – they don't procreate. They just hold hands.
Spiak: Well it’s usually just the girl.
Green: Yeah, sometimes a guy – no, they're just basically girls.
Chels: It's just like her side profile, right? Isn't that normally how?
Green: Oh, she could be holding a basket of cookies or having a little book. We had like an Amish editor who specialized in different wardrobe that the Amish women would wear because a lot of people would complain about how it wasn't an authentic outfit.
Spiak: Oh and they’re so picky about that.
Green: Okay, so here's where the Regency took a detour for us by the way and I'm gonna bring this in just to show you how observant the fan base is of the Regency covers. I could be doing twenty book covers in a week, and there's other photographers who could be just equally as busy. There could be one author that was working with Kensington, who might also have been working with Grand Central Publishing. And we had to be in discussion that the same dress would not end up being on the same cover in the same month. Because the fan base would then tell them. She, the author –that model, it's a different model, but “You guys use that exact same dress and the last book that she–” They were that crazy that they could tell us. “Oh, she wore the same dress in the last book” and I'm like, “How are we supposed to know this stuff?” We don't see the covers, and we don't read the books. But the fans were so incensed. It's like, “No, no, no, no, you need to change the dress, you need to change the dress.” So we then had to be aware because of the fan base that the dresses had to change. That's a true story.
Spiak: But I would always tell the artist. “Don't make it the same color as it is.”
Green: Yeah, change the color.
Spiak: Change the color, do it a little different.
Green: Oh and then Margie(?) came and said, “Oh, she was wearing the same jewelry. Oh, you can't put that jewelry on her because I read the last book.” We're like, “Oh my god!” Look we need to have our own research team! Because the fans were actually calling in and saying, “No, the last cover it was the same dress. You can't do it.” Like, they got pissed off.
Chels: I've seen before like, maybe like Goodreads lists of like there might be a dress that comes up a lot and so people will be like, “This book has this dress, this book has —” but I didn't know people were actually upset about it Like I thought it was just like a fun Easter egg.
Green: No! Nope, they would they would be making comments and sending in emails to the editors. The editors would tell us they’d say, “Can you make sure that you don't use the same dress that you used on the last book cover?” and I said, “But I don't know what the last book cover looked like. I didn't see the finish result. He might have changed the color of the dress.” And so that's why Spiak would always end up bringing in like maybe like five or six dresses so that we could compare. Oh yeah, they wanted their money's worth. They wanted a different model and a different dress and to bring out all the different– you know, she shouldn't be wearing pearls, it should be maybe a red diamond– a red ruby or maybe some sapphires or emeralds. We were like “Wow!”
Chels: So it seems like the prep work got much bigger just because like you had to be so specific you had to like have things selected– you had to have all these extra things in mind, whereas before you were able to be kind of flexible and it was like this isn't finished. “I can change this whenever.”
Green: Yes.
Spiak: Well, another thing is when they were doing painted covers, every artist has their own style and their own way of painting fabric or jewels or whatever, you know, so it always looked different back in the day.
Chels: Yeah.
Green: I mean, I would essentially have maybe like a lot of freedom when it came to how I wanted to light. They would say, “Whatever you think is the best lighting, we'll work our sketch around that.” So I would have certain freedom and creativity with that in terms of how to light it. But then there would be sometimes where they'd be very specific and they're like, “Oh it's going to be shot inside, very moody lighting.”
Spiak: Firelight or fire place light or candlelight or lamp light.
Green: So there's a moon outside, so maybe the lighting could be a little on the cooler side if it’s the moon.
Spiak: Sunset.
Green: Or if it's a fireplace, a lot of it could be warmer lighting so maybe use a gel, you know, stuff like that. So that's where when we started shooting things became a little bit more specific.
Chels: So do you have any memories of a shoot that was just like a disaster?
Green: Oh my god, you can't ask us that!
Chels: Okay, move on.
Spiak: Yes, and sometimes you have to reshoot.
Chels: You have to reshoot!
Spiak: Yes, we’ve had many of them.
Green: Yeah. Well, and we do, we have had, I'm not going to mention names.
Chels: Right.
Green: That's the only thing I have to make this to protect the people involved is that you might get a guy who would probably get a little too excited.
Chels: Oh wow.
Green: Yes, and we had to–
Spiak: And many romances started in the studio!
Green: Oh, people have gotten married and had kids.
Chels: Okay. Oh my goodness!
Green: Yes, I mean I have a lot of people that met, got together. got married, had kids. Oh, quite a few actually, yeah. Yeah. So, but yeah, we, we've had some where, you know, the guys go in a little, you know, carried away with himself and we've had to calm him down a little bit and — . We did a photoshoot with Jon Stewart for his book, and I had to shoot full-frontal male nudity. That was interesting.
Spiak: You did?
Chels: Oh wow, for Jon Stewart?
Green: [To Spiak] Yeah you weren’t there for that.
I think it was his book, America or something like that and it was an alien’s interpretation of what life is like on earth. And, so the old man, there was an old man and a young man and we had a really hard time finding someone who was willing to do it. There was a chunk of change, but so the old guy that we got was awesome. He was amazing. He was in Sex and the City, he's this old character, Jewish guy. And his wife brought him to the studio. My studio was in Union Square. And he’d come, I have my assistant, the whole team there, John Stewart's art director is there, it's a big production, it's a whole day shoot and this old man showed up at my studio and a pair of Ugg boots and a bathrobe. Yeah, and he came out of his car.
Spiak: Oh my god, you had to take pictures.
Green: And he, he just, I just, I'm standing there and he looks like Papa Smurf and he said to me, you’ll be so proud of me, I’ve got my Uggs and my bathrobe and he stands there right in front of me and he opens up his bathrobe and he says “Look no lines!” I was like, “Oh, okay!” And he completely closes his bathrobe and walks in the door. And I go to my assistant and I'm like, “He is not gonna have a problem dropping that bathrobe and standing in front of the camera.”I think I'm going to have a bigger problem than he does. .
Chels: A hell of a “Hello.”
Green: And so I was, I would say maybe I was a little out of my element that day. Yeah, and then of course we had John Stewart on speakerphone and he was directing us and I think the end, the finish result was… a famous nighttime host who always wore suspenders. What was his name?
Spiak: Larry King.
Green: Larry King! So Larry King's face… that's on both of the bodies so you don't see their faces. So that's kind of what it looks like in the book. I have to say, I have the book but, so I would say for me that's up there is one of the most uncomfortable shoots I've ever done. And luckily, unfortunately only ever happened once. But yeah, we've definitely had our fair share of having to do a reshoot because we got wrong information or the models didn't really work out or the author hated the models.
Chels: Oh no.
Green: I mean we've done that before the author was like, “I just don't like these models. I'm not feeling it.” And they'd be perfect but she's like, “I don't like them. We're not using them.” So we have to change them.
Chels: Like, don't like the way that they looked or didn't think they matched the characters?
Green: Yes. Just didn't like them, you should get a feel for it. So we had to like pick different models and Spiak and I would be like, “We've just went from shooting a really good shoot to now doing something that's not…” and then you would see the finished cover and you're like, “That's not that great.” So, but the author didn't like it. If it was a big author.
Chels: Then they have control.
Green: And they had like a lot of power in the publishers. They would make those decisions. “No, don't like it. Change it.”
Chels: Oh, and then they get a book that's probably not gonna sell as well because the models don't look like they're having romance as much.
Green: Yeah, or we just don't like maybe the models themselves weren't really that, I don't know. You know, we had like models that we use that probably about ten of them, I can tell you would — if I put him on a cover, it could be a mediocre story, but having them on the cover instantly sold the book. Because they were just so good at what they did like you would walk into Barnes and Noble and you would see them on the cover and it was just a really hot sexy pose. One of the models that we used a lot, her name was Ewa Da Cruz. She is half Norwegian, half Egyptian. So she had the very, very long neck I used her all the time. And she was used a lot in James Griffin's jobs. Alan Ayers, also another artist, he used Ewa Da Cruz a lot as well. But I would say one thing that I wanna say is that because Spiak and I work really hard to create a really safe space in the studio for the female models especially, a lot of them only ever worked with us. So they didn't go work for other photographers. They didn't work with other studios. They especially work just with me. So what was good about that was I knew how many times I had them in my studio, I knew how many times I had shot them. So it was great because if an art director called up and said, “Oh, we're doing this cover, we need such and such and such and such.” Then I would be like, “You know what, we've used Ewa like ten times this month we've got to go maybe Toni or Carly. Or we haven't used Toni or we haven't used ever Ewa let's use these models. And I had like I would say like a good 10 models that didn't work elsewhere, like Molly– so it was easier for me to kind of like have some kind of, I guess control over how many times the model was gonna be seen on a cover because the art director didn't like that either. Like if a model was being used, too much.
Spiak: Overused.
Green: Yeah. Like you would especially if it was a New York Times author and there she wanted her models to be exclusive, which never happens.
Chels: Right.
Green: But then you would end up seeing those models in like five other book covers. They could get quite pissed off about that. So yeah, it was a lot of things went into it. Now that I'm talking about it, I'm like, “Wow.”
[Laughter]
Chels: But Ewa Da Cruz I think I know her— Did she used to be a soap opera star?
Green: Yes!
Chels: I think, okay, okay, yeah, I was like, “I know that name.” And the other names you said, it was Carly– So there was Carly Muvizio, she was with Wilhelmina, Toni Busker. Toni was in the Pirates of the Caribbean, one of the movies. But Toni was one of those girls that she our action hero, she was a Regency. She did a lot of the Regency stuff that the girl had to be in bed with looking like she was covered by a sheet.
Spiak: She didn't have any trouble.
Green: She had no problem taking her clothes off. None.
Spiak: Some girls do, but she didn't.
Green: No, Toni would literally stand there in front of you and a pair of stilettos and a thong, and that was it and she'd be like, “Okay, Green, what am I doing today?” And I'm like, “You're getting in bed.” She's like, “Oh, okay, cool.” And that would be it. She was great. She was awesome. So you had like your people that you knew that you could rely on and get the best shot and she could, she worked on a lot of covers with Paul Marron.
I mean her and Paul just worked really well together and you could really push it between the two of them, but you could really get it, like if you wanted to simulate. Well, it didn't happen very often, but there were times when the Regency– going way back, the guy would be laying in bed. So he was – no shirt. And then the girl would be literally sitting on top of him and all she would be covered with was a satin sheet. [To Spiak] Remember that? Laura Williams. Laura Williams was the pro. She did all of them. She was almost like our female version of a Fabio. And she was sitting completely on top of him in the most awkward position and I remember the shoot very well because I remember the guy, and he said to me, “Green, this is the last shoot I'm ever going to do with you. I'm getting married next week and this is just wrong.”
Chels: Oh wow.
Green: So, and true to his word that was the very last romance but cover that he shot because It was – she was riding him, and it was– and she wasn't – So what was bizarre? Do you remember this? She was– Laura was facing us. I was up the ladder. And he was laying on the bed having a good time.
Spiak: What was his name? You can’t say his name.
Green: I’m not telling.
Spiak: We also had a one where he brought his wife to the show.
Green: Oh my god.
Chels: Oh no!
Spiak: Oh, and that was, and that was, a, a one where he brought his wife to the show.
Green: Oh my God!
Spiak: And she convinced him to never do another one.
Green: So they ended up getting a divorce!
Chels: Oh no! She didn't like the shoot.
Spiak: No, she was not happy.
Green: No, and I was like, “Please don't ever bring your wife to a shoot it’s a disaster. They can’t separate that this is just fantasy. And, and it put the female model in a really awkward situation.
Spiak: It was an awkward situation for all of us!
Green: It was a bad shoot.
Chels: Oh my goodness.
Green: And then she left him!
Spiak: She left him.
Green: I think he's much happier by the way if you were to get him on your podcast. I think he's okay.
[Laughter]
Green: But that's how really it could get like it was… It would sometimes borderline on like soft porn.
Spiak: Yeah.
Green: Right?
Spiak: Yeah. Yeah, well it kind of like what what you're kind of describing in like the environment that you're creating like you're both kind of doing a lot of intimacy coordination like you're both kind of doing a lot of intimacy coordination like when you're like the way that you're both kind of doing a lot of intimacy coordination like when you're like the way that you're making sure everybody is comfortable, because it is kind of like– In theory sure, I'm taking a picture, but then of course, you know, it's kind of scary.
Green: Oh, and music, sexy music! Like you imagine you're going on a date or you know you're having a romantic dinner.
Spiak: It’s acting! They have to act.
Green: Yeah, and we've got really kind of sexy music playing and you're like, “Oh shit.”
Spiak: We have to get that chemistry. We have to be able to see that there's actual lust or emotion.
Green: And we don't have a lot of time it's not like, “Okay we'll take a warp we'll go have lunch and we'll come back and we'll work at it.”
Chels: We'll do some icebreakers.
Green: It's like guys we got like 20 min. Yeah, it's like, can we like just move it, do something. And you know, and for me, one of the things that I try to work into my shoots whenever I found out if a model was maybe a little uptight or a little awkward or not really comfortable was humor always worked you just would crack a joke or make something really funny or you know– I'm short, I'm 5’4”, so I would go into the shoot and pretend to be the model with a guy which was a disaster. We've also done photoshoots where we've had born again Christians come in– that was a joke.
Spiak: That doesn’t ever work. That’s the booker’s fault.
Green: Actually, the booker never knew that she was born again Christian. “I can't have him touch me. I'm engaged.” “I have a boyfriend.”
Chels: Oh no!
Green: And we have those situations where we would have to try and work around intimacy without her being touched.
Spiak: Or get another model!
Green: Yeah, or we call up the agency and say like, “We can't do this. The model forbids anybody to touch or get close to her.”
Spiak: That’s the booker’s fault for not telling them what the shoot was.
Green: We’ve had that before too where it’s like, what do you do when you do like a regular shoot? How do you work as a model like if you're a born again Christian? Anyway, so we've had issues like that too. We've had to work around that as well. We could write a book on it.
Green: Sharon and I are trying to figure out how many covers we've worked on together. Thousands. It's crazy. It's thousands.
Green: Just very grateful that I've been doing something as a female photographer in New York for as long as I've been in business and and you know have had incredible relationships. I've seen you know some of my models become moms and have their kids and shoot their kids portraits and you know so I have these relationships outside my studio where a lot of these models have become my friend. And so yeah, it's in the fact that people still wanna shoot with Spiak and I and they still wanna work with us and You know, so I would just say just very grateful for that. And, so now what I'm trying to do is just basically create a very specific stock library of all my images. So basically everything from all the Young Adults like I did Anne of Green Gables, Little House on the Prairie, Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys. You know all the kids classics I show all of them. The Goosebumps so it would be, you know, VC Andrews you know, Flowers in the Attic. Like we did all the reshoots when they would bring out like a lot of the old covers and modernize them and reintroduce them to the younger generation. I got to shoot them. You know, then we got to show a lot of vampire erotica. That was a different phase when you got to do stuff like that. So I think because I'm creating this stock library I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna find a lot of stuff and I'm gonna be like, “Wow, I remember doing that. That was fun and I like this–” The vampire stuff for Spiak was really cool because it was a lot of fantasy, so that was where Spiak could really go crazy. Because there was no specific wardrobe. It would be bustiers and leather and bangles and daggers and belts and crazy stuff, you know. Then we did a lot of steampunk stuff like your Victorian time travel
It's been a journey. It's been really, I'm very grateful. It's been cool, you know, so. And we're still shooting. I don't think there's anybody else left.
Spiak: Yeah, it's true.
Green: They've all retired or died!
Spiak: That's what I said the other day. I said, “Well all my contemporaries have died or they’re not – they’re not able to do anything anymore.”
Green: So, and we're still standing. We're still here!
Thank you so much to Sharon Spiak and Shirley Green, that was such a fun and informative interview. You can buy an original or a print of Sharon’s paintings at SpiakSpiakArt.Com, and it would absolutely be worth it, they’re stunning. She also does portraits of pets and humans alike! Be sure to contact her on her website for more info.
Shirley Green can be found at ShirleyGreenPhotography.com, and you can also follow her thirteen-year-old Pomeranian Rocky, who attends all of the shoots and dresses accordingly, on instagram. Username @Rocky.Rockstarr, that’s “Rockstar” two “R’s” at the end.
And thank YOU for listening to Reformed Rakes! If you enjoy this podcast, please be sure to rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. You can also subscribe to our Patreon for bonus content at patreon.com/reformedrakes. We’re on both instagram and Twitter, the username for both is @ReformedRakes. We’ll see you next time!
