Garters
Show Notes
Pamela Morsi’s books were different than the typical historical romance of the time. Writing stories set in rural America, with poor or working class characters, Morsi was hailed as the “the Garrison Keillor of romance fiction,” by Publishers Weekly. When demand for the Americana subgenre waned after 2000, Morsi switched over to contemporary romance and women’s fiction with 2002’s Doing Good. She continued to write through 2014, publishing 29 books in her long career. She died this past December. Garters, published in 1993, is one of Morsi’s most beloved books. Following Esme Crab, a poor hill girl who wants to marry up, and Cleavis Rhy, a storeowner with aspirations of being a gentleman, Garters is an unusual tale about class, love, and ambition that is goofy, tender, and at times heartbreaking.
Books Mentioned
The Bridgerton series by Julia Quinn
Small Town Swains series by Pamela Morsi
Works Cited
“A Working Class Romance” by Pamela Morsi in North American Romance Writers
Transcript
Chels
Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that is hill-bred and motherless. My name is Chels. I'm the writer of the romance newsletter The Loose Cravat.
Emma
I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the Substack Restorative Romance.
Beth
My name is Beth, and I write at the Substack Ministrations.
Chels
Pamela Morsi was born in 1951 in Muskogee, Oklahoma. After obtaining her master's, she worked in academic libraries before publishing her first book, Heaven's Sent, in 1991. Morsi's books were different than the typical historical romances of the time. Writing stories set in rural America with poor or working class characters, Morsi was hailed as "the Garrison Keillor of romance fiction," by Publishers Weekly.
When demand for the Americana subgenre waned after 2000, Morsi switched over to contemporary romance and women's fiction with 2002's Doing Good. She continued to write through 2014, publishing 29 books in her long career. She died this past December.
Garters, published in 1993, is one of Morsi's most beloved books. Following Esme Crab, A Poor Hill Girl Who Wants to Marry Up, and Cleavis Rhy, a store owner with aspirations of being a gentleman, Garters is an unusual tale about class, love, and ambition that is goofy, tender, and at times, heartbreaking.
The reason that we're doing a Garters episode now is because I had floated this book as a potential book for us to read together for three years. And then Beth kept moving it off the schedule and then wouldn't put it back on the schedule.
And then I started just saying some snarky things about it on our Patreon. And Beth never responded because Beth doesn't read my Patreon blog posts. So years later, here we are. We're recording a Garters episode.
Emma
Yeah. We needed to get Chels back on the pod for a book.
Beth
I know. This is better. We'd enticed them back with Garters.
Chels
It was my idea.
Beth
It was. It worked out great. I feel like I planted the idea because in one of our bonus episodes, I finally got Emma to read Cold-Hearted by Heather Guerre. And then I was like, as a side note, I feel like I pulled this book, Garters, off our episode list several times, and now I think I'm just missing out on a great book.
Emma
Yeah, it was great. It could not have been more charming. I just was delighted the whole time I was reading it.
Chels
Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, no, it's a really good book. It's really fun.
But yeah, I guess before we get into talking about it more, I'll do a quick plot summary. Tennessee, 1888. Esme Crab lives with her father and two older sisters on the outskirts of Vader, Tennessee. They are desperately poor, and Esme feels responsible for turning their situation around since she's the responsible one. Her twin sisters, Agrippa and Adelaide, are flirts who are obsessed with and seemingly dating the same man, Armon Hightower. Her father, Yohan, plays the fiddle, but he doesn't like to work.
On the hunt for better living conditions, she sets her sights on Cleavis Rhy, or more accurately, his big white house with a wrap-around porch. Cleav is the owner of the town's general store and one of the wealthiest people in Vader. Esme decides she will marry him so that she can move her family into his fancy house.
The problem is she has no idea how to do this. She shows up to his store, awkwardly meanders around and tries to make conversation with him. Misunderstanding her intent, Cleav tells her that he can't extend any more credit to her father. She blurts out a marriage proposal, and seeing his shocked face, pretends that she said something different.
Confused, Cleav tries to work while Esme meanders around the store. Her stockings begin to sag as she walks, so she props her foot on a chair and lifts her skirts to adjust them. Noticing that Cleav is watching her intently, she makes a big production out of fixing her stocking. As she leaves the store triumphantly, Esme thinks “It was all settled. She’d be Mrs. Cleavis Rhy before the turnips were sprouting.”
Meanwhile, Cleavis is courting Sophrona Tewksbury, the preacher's daughter. While they don't have much in common, Cleav thinks that as a lady and one of the few people of his class invader, Sophrona is a good match for him.
When Clevis is sitting with his mother, Sophrona, and her parents, the conversation turns to Esme Crab's visit to the store. Cleav mentions that Esme looked poorly and that and her family must be hurting for food. Sophrona declares that she'll discuss this with the Ladies Auxiliary and prepares a gift basket for the crab family.
The next day, Cleav goes to tend to his trout farm near his house. When Esme shows up, he's annoyed by the intrusion but is eventually pleased with her genuine interest in his hobby. She helps him feed the fish and they have a romantic moment. Esme wants Cleav to kiss her, and she eventually takes matters into her own hands, launching herself with a man, but he eventually pushes her away.
He's dismayed to learn that Esme will not be easily swayed. The next day, when he gets up, he sees her by the tree next to his window, gazing up at him. She follows him everywhere, even on to the path. It turns out that Esme has no idea how to go courting, so her best idea is to show up everywhere that Cleav is, so he gets familiar with her. She follows him to his store and starts helping, basically working at the store for free to prove that she'll be a good wife. Cleav is exasperated, not understanding how she can't get the hint that he's not interested. “Let me speak plainly, Miss Crabb.” He tells her. “And I hope this is not too prissy for you. Keep your snooping, spying eyes away from my door and your long, skinny legs out of my sight!”
Esme is not dissuaded: “They may be long and skinny, but it’s my legs you’ve been thinking about.”
At church service, the preacher makes a big show of providing the gift basket to the poor, needy Crabb family. Yohan and the twins are pleased, but Esmee is humiliated at such a public display. “Clearly the congregation was delighted at the evidence of their own goodness,” she thinks. She’s seething, her pride smarting, when she catches Cleavis’s eye and sees understanding.
The next day Cleavis tells the preacher that the gift seemed like a blow to Esme, and the preacher says, “Pride and poverty don’t mix.” Cleavis does not agree, and the conversation becomes tense.
Cleavis continues courting Sophrona, meanwhile Esme’s sisters Adelaide and Agrippa find a dress in the gift basket. They decide it should go to Esme, and they alter the dress to fit her. She’s pleased with how pretty she looks in the new dress, but when she goes to see Cleav he asks her why she’s wearing Sophrona’s dress. Embarrassed, she runs off to hide, and then Cleav chases her to apologize. He tells her that he knows how she feels, because when he was sent to school in Knoxville something similar happened to him. He was wearing a suit his mother made for him, but the fancier Knoxville students, whose clothes were tailor-made, teased him for being a hillbilly.
Cleav and Esme continued to clash and flirt until one day at the store, Esme is adjusting her stockings again. Angry at her attempts at seduction after he's made it clear he won't marry her, he tells her that proper women don't adjust their stockings in public. She retorts that have garters, which she doesn't own, and they don't come in a charity box. He finds a pair of garters at the store and shoves them at her. But when Esme leaves the town, gossip catches her with them. Thinking she's being accused of stealing the garters, Esme tells her that Cleav gave them to her.
Now the town gossips about the relationship between Cleav and Esme has reached a fever pitch, and Cleav has no choice but to marry her. He's resentful, but he supposes he's grateful to be married to someone that clearly loves him, at least.
After they're married, they settle into a camaraderie, and Cleav worries that Esme only married him to get his house. He concludes that the reason that he cares is that he actually loves Esme. Meanwhile, Esme frets about being a proper gentleman's wife, worrying that she's going to ruin Cleve's drought venture by behaving improperly when his scientific colleagues come to visit.
When Esme accidentally makes an indelicate comment at the scientific dinner, she is mortified, but Cleav tells Esme that she has nothing to worry about. “You are the woman I want for my wife,” he tells her, “I want you that way and every way. I love you, Esme Rhy.”
Emma
So cute.
Chels
Okay, so I have this quote from Pamela Morsi's essay. It's called A Working Class Romance, and it's in North American Romance Writers: “Romance may well be the only truly equal opportunity in our society. The drama and ritual of “falling in love” may not happen for everyone, but everyone, rich and poor, every color and creed, every age and sexual preference, every level of physical attractiveness, believes that it is possible that it will happen to him or her.
As obvious as this seems, the truth of this statement came late to me in life. And it came to me while reading a romance novel. I was deeply involved in the evolving plot of the latest Danielle Steel when this line stopped me in my tracks. “... she looked like a young girl asking to wear her mother’s mink coat to prom.”
If I had been a cartoon character, a light bulb with a question mark would have appeared over my head. “How does that look?” The only mink coats I’d ever seen were on TV or in movies…..
And then she writes later, My prom reality was very different from Danielle’s. And in that moment as I read her vision of it, I realized that most of the women in the world are much more familiar with my reality than with hers. I am an ordinary person, leading a very regular kind of life. And I believe that people like me do fall in love. And that love between decent, hard-working people who care about community and family is at least as interesting as the private life of Marla and the Donald.”
Okay, that's a bit of a jump scare. People used to care. You remember Marla Maples? Anyways, sorry. But my question for this is, I found this quote really interesting, and then connecting it to Garters because this is a class difference romance, but a class difference romance that we don't typically see, usually like duke and governance or something like that. So because Cleav is working class, maybe middle class, he's in the wealthiest family in a very poor town. But when he goes to his school in Knoxville, he's immediately clocked by his peers as being a bit of a yokel. So Esme, on the other hand, is living in poverty. So anyway, any thoughts on this excerpt from Morsi's essay or how class functions in this book?
Beth
Yeah, I thought Morsi integrated class really in an interesting way. I think the thing that stood out most to me is how slippery the markers of class are, if that makes sense. Like, what is a gentleman? Who is the proper bride for someone like that? What is the proper behavior for someone like Cleavis? So I have a few rambling thoughts. First, you talked about how Cleavis is immediately clocked as "not one of us" by the other kids when he goes to school in Knoxville. And as you mentioned in the plot summary, he's wearing this brand new suit. And in the town that he's from, from Vader, that's the best anyone has, but looks completely out of fashion in Knoxville. I think what makes this moment extra devastating, and he's telling Esme this story, is he's so proud of his suit. He's on the train. He's telling everyone that his mother made him this suit. And then when he gets to the school, and this is quoting from the book, “They even laughed at the new brown suit my mama made me. Their suits were fitted at the tailor’s. They called mine homemade cracker clothes. Just perfect, one of the upperclassmen declared, for Cleavis Clodhopper the hillbilly boy.”
So in that context, he is at the bottom of the class structure. He goes to Knoxville, he doesn't fit in. But back in Vader, Cleavis is at the top. Although, we talked about before, and I think maybe Emma will talk about this when she answers this question, he's not exceedingly wealthy, but he is educated and he has changed by that experience in Knoxville. I think Morsi directly comments on this. So Esme and Cleavis are feeding fish together, which is adorable. And Esme observes these gray fish called steelheads, and they're running with the rainbow drought. And Cleavis tells her that the steelheads are the same as the rainbow drought, only they've been to the ocean, so that changes their colors when they go to the ocean water. But when they come back to the spawning waters, and they now look different from the rainbow drought, but they still all run together. So Esme says of the steelhead fish: “He’s like you. He’ll never be a sea fish, but he’s seen the ocean, and he’s been marked by it.”
Even Cleavis' mother, Eula, tries to do what she thinks is appropriate for a gentleman's mother to do. Morsi extends her a lot of empathy and humanity. I think in another book, she would just be this unstoppable force that hates the heroine and will never accept her and is a villain. But like I said, Morsi, I don't think it's interested in writing a character like that. She does not think Esme is good enough for her son at the beginning, and she is really pushing for this marriage between Cleavis and Sophrona. And Eula has kind of a similar background as Esme, not quite as impoverished, but she just talks about how hard it was for her to assume this role that she thinks is societally acceptable for a woman of her position. This is so small, but before the third act, she has this realization that she just really prefers gardening. And for whatever reason, she has decided this is not socially acceptable for a woman of her stature to do. But by the end of the book, she's like, You know what? Who cares? I'm going to garden. And she tells Esme, I think you are really good for my son.
So on the topic of parents, Esme's dad, Yohan, spelled with a Y, again, feels like a class marker. When those two fish scientists at the end of the book, they ask Yohan what he does. And Esme is bracing herself. She's a little bit embarrassed because her dad just plays the fiddle and he doesn't really do much else. But they just like, Oh, you're a musician. And yes, if Yohan had been born anywhere else and had access to schools maybe or just jobs like that. That's what he would have done. That's what his job would have been. So I think the final tension of the story resolves when Cleavis finally gets through to Esme that she doesn't have to aspire to these city, socially acceptable behaviors. This book is longer, and at least in the Kindle version, I had 100 pages left, and I was like, They're mostly happy together. So I was like, What is the final conflict going to be? Is something going to happen that's going to break them apart? And the final resolution is on Esme's part. Those two fish scientists come, and Esme is hell-bent on making sure she's acting like the proper role. And then she almost says the word sperm in front of a company. That part was funny, but she does run out of the house crying.
Cleavis is like, I love you the way you are. You don't have to do all this. So I don't know. I really like that. That was the final tension. It was really well done.
Emma
I love where Cleavis is like, Yeah, it's embarrassing, but he's just trying to smooth over. He's like, you're okay. It's okay to be embarrassed. It is embarrassing. I'm a little embarrassed, but we will move on with the friend of this together and we will go back to the house. And also, I'm so in love with you. It's very cute.
Beth
Also, they don't even seem to care because they go back and they're like, We're not going to go back to dinner. We're actually going to go to bed early. And everyone knows what they're going to do. They just doesn't care. It was very cute.
Emma
Yeah. So it was class. I was thinking about even as Beth was talking about how... I think sometimes when an author is imagining a series of books, and it's Okay, now this book is going to be the class difference romance. That author may engage with some really hacky ways of distinguishing class or having the bridge between the mom being, like the previous mom being absurdly evil or Esme's father being absurdly lazy, that we have this difference, and then the couple comes together in a bridge. And I think Morsi doesn't really... She's so compassionate with all the characters that she doesn't fall into that. I was thinking when I was reading it, Esme's family, initially, in a worse romance temple, it would be set up as a family that doesn't understand her, or there's these cruel, beautiful sisters and a lazy father, and she's She's distinctly being taken advantage of, and she knows that, but she's also like, This is my family. I love them. How could I not do this for them? But Morsi doesn't ever really let you think that for very long. When we're in her mind, she's so understanding of who her father is, what he means to her, and also even what he means to her mother, what he meant to her late mother, and what he's good at.
We see this in the last third of the book. He's good at making people feel at ease. Like the scene with the sperm. She comes back and her father is talking to the scientist, and he's fun to be around, which is a skill that Esme is worried that she doesn't have herself. And then her sisters are so earnestly delighted to give her the dress and help her alter it. That scene really shifted. I was like, Oh, this book is on a different level because so easily these sisters who were vain and obsessed with how they look would take that dress and Esme would have to fight for it in a Cinderella situation. But they're like, Oh, of course Esme should have it. Of course, we should make her look beautiful. And then even Esme's home, the way it's talked about, she lives in a literal cave. But there's only really, I think, one moment where Cleavis realizes how little he thought about Esme's circumstances, where we think like, Oh, this cave is not a home. Cleavis is like, Oh, my God. I should have been thinking about where Esme lives and the framing of this.
They're in abject poverty, but Morsi doesn't describe it in abject terms because they're not thinking about it. This is their home. And I also liked that Cleavis is not comically rich. He doesn't even have anybody working in the store. The gap in Vader is effectively pretty narrow, probably across the entire country when this is set. It's just that he is the richest person in Vader. So I think it works in the romance's advantage because it makes sense why... When she starts hanging out, he could use the help. He can't afford someone working in the store. But I think there's often this impulse in romance to make the gap so big. But it doesn't mean that people who have these small differences in class don't have concerns about this. I think this is something that happens in modern relationships because we still live in a society with class. This is often where a communication problems will come up. How were you raised? How did your family talk? And I just keep thinking of all these different ways that this would be different in a read and see a set book. I think as they would have gotten a job in the shop, he would have hired her officially, and maybe even started living under Cleavis' protection in some way.
And that would be in a way for the author to show his largesse towards the community. This is him being compassionate and helping her out by giving her work or making her a servant. But Cleavis is so accepting of the reality that some people in this community are just really, really poor. This is where he lives. This is what the world is like. And he tries to be compassionate. He's extended credit to Yohan as much as he can. And he's the person who clocks that Esme is embarrassed by the charity basket. But then also he has these hang-ups where he doesn't immediately think to invite Yohan and the twins into his home, even though he knows they live in a cave. They're married for a week before Esme brings it up. And she's like, When does my family move in? He's like, I hadn't even thought of that. You know they live in a cave, man. They should live in your house. And so he has these hang-ups that are real, but it's not combined with over-the-top compassion because we have to overcome these hang-ups. It's just like, everything is written so neutrally and loving towards all the characters, which I loved.
Chels
And then I like, too, when she's like, When my family is going to move in? He's like, Well, you want my mom to move out? And she's like, No. I thought that was an interesting... He's seeing it as, Well, this is somebody's family and not a combined unit just yet. Or even, I mean, we're going to talk about this a little bit later, but the fact that he doesn't... We're going to talk about the scene with the garters, but he literally doesn't understand that she literally is pulling up her garters, or she's pulling up her stockings because she doesn't have garters to hold them. She's spending all her time with you at the store not getting paid.
Emma
How would she buy these? Nobody's paying her. She's investing in her future. You can pay for her a salary. That would be the other way to do it. It's like you could pay her.
Chels
Oh, my goodness.
So what do we think about Esme's method of courtship, which I have characterized as bothering someone into Marrying You.
Emma
It did not surprise me that you liked this book because it reminded me of your favorite Anne Mallory book, which is the other book that we describe as this bothering someone to marry you. The third in that case.
Chels
Oh, the Insane Grumpy Sunshine? Yes. Is that In Total surrender? She just showed us. She's like, I made cookies. Scary evil guy. He's like, I want you to leave, and I never want to see you again. She's like, Whatever, man. See you tomorrow.
Beth
I love that dynamic. But the plot of that book, I'm like, I'm just doing that—
Chels
I have no idea what happened in that book. I don't know what... Yeah, I don't know what it is.
Beth
It would be like a reveal of something, and I'm like, This feels like be something and I don't know what it means.
Chels
That was my first Anne Mallory book, and I was like, Oh, maybe this will make... Maybe this would have made more sense if I started the series at book one. No, it doesn't. It doesn't make any more sense. It doesn't make any sense. But, you know, whatever.
Also, that book is like, weirdly...well, not weirdly hot. That book is hot, but they don't have. I think there's a part where she just leans against his back, and I was like, okay.
This is really hot.
Emma
I was like, who ever told Anne Mallory that she needs to move on to books that make sense? I was like, They don't.
Chels
Keep writing historical books. No, just do what you need to do. But they don't make sense. It's fine. Yeah. Well, it also just reminded me a little bit of what is that? You love this book, Emma, the Mary Ballogh, where the girl was like, That's my husband, with the...
Emma
Oh, with the daffodil. What is that called? Not the proposal, the other one. It's in that...
Chels
It's like the younger sister who dresses really garish. And he has memory problems. No, she dresses really garishly, and he's very starchy. He's like a girl. Oh, yes.
Emma
Oh, what is that one? It's a prequel. Like his mistress or- Yeah, it's one of the mistress series. Yes, in the mistress series. Yes. He rescues her at an inn, and she's like, Well, that's the one I'm going to marry. What is it called?
Chels
The Secret mistress.
Emma
The Secret mistress. Yes, it's a prequel. So it's the first two series in that one. And yes, she's really obnoxious. And he's like, Why are you at an inn by yourself? And she's like, You're my husband. And he's like, What are you talking about? Yes, that one is so delightful. Yeah, very similar vibes. So yeah, I think in all those... I mean, maybe less than the Anne Mallory one because I think it's less romantic pursuing it. She just wants to be around him because there's some weird mystery going on. She is attracted to him. But the fact that she's the pursuer, but that combined with the fact that Cleavis falls... I think I would argue that Cleavis falls first. Esme, she knows that she's attracted to him, but I think she's thinking about it holistically. She has all these practical reasons to marry Cleavis, so she's thinking really broadly. This makes sense. I've made the decision. Cleavis is the guy. I'm committed to Cleavis. And he's thinking so specifically, as me, as me, as me, as me. Even though she's the pursuer, you still have this difference in attraction levels. He can't stop thinking about her in a way that she's not quite as monomaniacal about.
And then I think also, comparing this to other romances with this method of courtship, I could see readers wanting Esme to confront Cleavis or there to be a fallout. She's been pursuing him. She's been doing all these things, all these help me things for him. But it is after being married, when he thinks he's only married him for the house and he takes it personally. But I think he's taking it personally. He doesn't read it as a trick by Esme. And I think that's, again, the difference between Morsi and maybe a different author is that I could not have handled the fallout. If he had accused her of tricking him into this marriage or manipulating him into the marriage, the hurt that she would feel if he had accused her of that, I would not have been able. I don't know why he would have been able to keep reading. I wouldn't have DNFed it, but I was like, It would have broken my heart. And he just takes it so personally. And you believe that because we know Cleavis so well at that point.
And so I think what Morsi does, instead of having Esme ever do this big speech, I'm standing on my own terms which I think makes sense. I've been so devoted to you. When are you going to give something back to me? She has this gap where Cleavis is basically on board with her, whether he knows it or not for the whole time. I was just thinking about after they have sex in the store and they should quietly acknowledge that Cleavis married Esme because of the town gossip. And she suggests that he regrets ever giving her the garters that leads to their romance. He then he walks away. And that moment where he walks away, again, deals with this big conflict, but he brings back a drawer of garters and dumps them on her. And he's like, You can have all the garters you want. I was holding my breath because I thought for a second longer, if she thought for a second longer that he regret it, the marriage, I was going to lose my mind. And it works so well because she's the pursuer, but also he's smitten immediately. He just has no idea that he is. And even when you're in his head, you're like, You're obsessed with her.
Beth
Yeah. Esme is picking up a lot of what he's putting down. They're both so inexperienced. Yes.
Chels
He also has no idea what he's doing. He's like, I'm going to date Saphrona because my mom told me to. Yeah, she's not like Sophrona. She's so boring. It's like, why does she keep quoting the Bible? Oh, my God.
Beth
Oh, this is a random side note. I did love how there's a part where Esme goes to Sophrona and asks for advice with the fish scientists and the dinner. And then it's after she's married Armon, which is like, he's a notorious person in the town, marrying the preacher's daughter as well, where she explains why she quotes Bible first. When she feels like she has nothing else to say, that's what she says. And I don't know. I just like that little, again, Morsi extending empathy to this character.
Chels
And you can totally tell, too, because it'll just be like word association. Somebody will say one word and she'll quote a Bible verse that has that same word in it.
Emma
She's not doing it to be patronizing, which I think is I don't know. Esme approaches the world assuming that people in the town are talking down to her. And so it clicks for Esme later. It's like, Oh, other people are also going through their own shit. And maybe if I let my guard down a little bit, I can make these connections with people. And then being a gentleman's wife will be easier because I can then connect with Sophrona on this other level. We're both anxious around people because we don't know how to talk to them. Yeah.
Beth
Taking it back to the question about Esme's method of courtship, perfect. No notes. Love it. I do like reading a story where the woman is the pursuer. She is never really embarrassed about pursuing Cleavis. I really liked that part. She was just like, every time he was pushing back on her, again, Oh, you like my skinny legs? So you have been thinking about them. It's perfect. I think that's part of when you grow up in a class like where you're pushed to the side of society. You have to demand attention and advocate for yourself. So I'm not surprised that Esme has developed these skills and is now applying them to courting Cleavis. And like I said, I don't think she's going on nothing. And her stated intention in the beginning is she's going to marry him, whether he likes it or not.
And we already talked about this scene where she's pulling up her stockings. But this is from Cleavis'... Or she's watching Cleavis and she sees his desire. And I just really like that she clocks it. So this is quoting from the book: “Now suddenly, in the middle of a Tuesday morning in the M. Cleavis Rhy General Merchandise, she felt for the first time the sweet, dark rush of desire.Glancing back to Cleavis, she saw that his gaze had never left her. With pleasure she watched the rise and fall of his chest as if he too found the interior of the store suddenly short of life-giving breath. His powerful-looking hands lay flat on the counter, as if bracing himself. And the pencil he had been using now stood, in silent testament, broken between his fingers.” If someone broke a pencil because they saw my leg, I would be a little flattered. You didn't realize what you did.
I think this attraction is important with the dynamic that Morsi creates between the two. Because I think dating or falling in love with someone, sometimes you're attracted to a person you think you would be or sometimes isn't conventionally attracted by society's standards. Cleavis has his sight set on Sophrona, and this is the person in his mind, he's like, this is who I should like, but it's not. It's Esme, and he's obsessed with her legs, which I really liked. They come up quite a bit.
Chels
It's like the Proposition? Like, Winnie's legs was like a huge deal.
Beth
Oh, yeah. Because she was really tall. I'm like, Yeah, that is something to admire about a tall person.
Emma
Again, I'm thinking about... Because maybe I'm always imagining the worst faith Goodreads reader reading a book, and I'm like, I'm arguing against your argument. It's the pursuing and the way that she's annoying him. I could see someone saying, Oh, she's not listening to his boundaries or whatever.
Chels
They're literally Goodreads reviews that say that.
Beth
Really?
Chels
Yeah.
Emma
He's like, Oh, I could have just I could have solved this problem if I had proposed to Sophrona earlier. There's no reason that he can't propose to Sophrona. The parents are on board. Sophrona is like his beau. They're together. I think his beau is only a man. But she—that's who he's pursuing. He could have proposed to her at the beginning of the summer before Esme even came down the mountain. And he has to think like, Well, why haven't I done that yet? At any point in this thing, he could say, The reason that I would... A way to stop this would be to propose to Sophrona. She would stop pursuing me if we couldn't get married. And he doesn't want to do that. He's extending this because he doesn't want to marry Sophrona. He is interested in Esme in keeping her around. And even people around him are like, Why don't you tell her to go away? And he's like, I can't do that. I don't have any reason to tell her not to be here. And it's like, Well, you could tell her you don't want her to be there.
There's a reason. And he's confusing. He keeps her around and he's interested. I think that's described it. It's like, Oh, yeah, the decision gets taken away from him about having to marry her. He's relieved by that. Very immediately, he's on board.
Beth
He's like, Oh, no. Now I have to marry Esme.
Emma
Esme is looking at it as a business proposition. She sees Sophrona as like, She would be bad at working at the store. She's kind of vain. She's a proper woman. She's not good at working. She doesn't have experience in managing things. Esme is managing a household, even though it's in a cave. She's very good at numbers and- She's interested in the trout.
Chels
Yes, she's interested in the trout.
Emma
She sees it as a business deal for her, and she's trying to make it a good business deal for him. Again, It's not like that she's pursuing him, but on this business track, and he's like, Oh, my God, she's so hot. I'm so attracted to her. What's going on? So they're on different levels of the classic historical... I think in historical, you have to make the money work and you have to make the love work. And Esme is doing work on one side, and Cleavis is doing work on the other. And so it's not one-sided as much as I think people might characterize it as if they want to look at Esme as a stalker. Again, he's in a position of power. He could get her to go away very easily.
Beth
Also, she's always in view, so not a real stalker. She's just like, You're going to get used to seeing me around.
Emma
She wants him to see her.
Chels
That's the thing—
Beth
Can you see me? I'm here.
Chels
That's what...I mean, also it's just like... It feels very anti-fiction, I don't know, to be like, Well, this shouldn't have happened that way. Yeah, well, he should have known immediately that Sophrona was not right for him. But also like Esme, her dad asked her, he's like, This doesn't seem like the way that courting happens. And she's like, I don't know how courting happens. But I figure if I just show up where he is, and he looks at me and he sees me around, and he just gets used to seeing me around, then we're going to get married. And you know what? It worked.
Emma
She's doing like, I said earlier, she's doing like DBT for him. She's like, You're going to get used to seeing me. We're going to practice having this thought that I'm your wife, and we're going to get used to it together. It works. He's like, Oh, yeah. She is really useful at the store. I do like her legs a lot. It's just like, Oh, yeah. She could fit into my life very easily.
Chels
Yeah. She's interested in my trout. It's like hitting all the notes. And then also just like the... I feel like this quote was a really good... Because a lot of the humor of the first half of the book is just like Esme's single-minded determination to put herself in Cleav's path. And him just being so... He doesn't know what to do with it. I think a part of him is rolling with it, but a part of him is mortified because being a gentleman is his main goal. He wants to be a gentleman. He has this delineated path. And there's no rule book for Esme Crab. Nobody's going to tell him what to do about her, except maybe tell her to go away. And so he's really struggling. So this one quote that made me laugh so much. This is their early relationship: “Esme couldn’t keep her glance from seeking Cleav. She caught his eye and smiled sweetly. With an appalled expression he immediately turned his attention to the preacher."
Emma
Wait, and I think it's important to realize that he's appalled with her, but also appalled that he was looking at her.
Chels
He was looking at, yeah.
Emma
He was looking at her himself.
Chels
And then she's thinking the whole time. She was like, he's trying not to look at me. He's thinking about my legs. And he was. Yeah. Can we also talk about Esme in the tree? Yeah.
Beth
So she's up there. Sophrona doesn't know she's up there, right? Yeah.
Chels
They're outside of Cleav's house. And I think Esme had been lightly spying from the tree.
Emma
This is her most stalker behavior.
Chels
Yeah, this is probably... It's like, Okay, you got us there. Goodreads reviewers this was a little weird.
Emma
She didn't think they were going to be coming outside. She was like, I thought you were going to be in there, and I was going to be out here. I was just going to be in the tree. And then I was already in the tree.
Chels
She's in the tree. And then so he's just trying to have this date, and she's dangling her. Her legs are dangling out, which is like, it's just all the legs again. It's the worst nightmare. She's trying to focus his attention on this woman who's quoting Bible verse at him. And then you've got these bare legs, dangling. It's following you around.
Beth
Also, because is this the part where So Sophrana goes away for some reason? And then she goads him. She's like, Why aren't you kissing her? If you guys like each other, I would want you to kiss me. So she probably wants you to kiss her.
Emma
You're telling me you like her more. You've not kissed her. Again, I'm doing the math in my head. I was like, We've kissed. Why haven't you kissed the person you're pursuing? Because maybe you're pursuing me because you've kissed me.
Beth
But I think that's so interesting and cute because Sophrona doesn't really like Cleavis either. He kisses her, and I think she slaps him or punches him or something. She's also probably young and an experienced and doesn't realize, Hey, you probably don't like that person if they try to kiss you and that was your reaction.
Emma
When you're courting with an understanding that you're probably going to get married.
Beth
And then Sophrona, when she marries Armon, they get married and it happens within a week, I feel like.
Chels
It's immediate. He had his—he saw God or whatever. I didn't say this in the plot summary, but Armon, he's dating... For the whole book, he's dating Esme's two older sisters who are twins. And the running joke is that they're both dating him, and he doesn't care to differentiate between them. So they take different days of the week to date him. And then Esme is like, This guy is like, such a fuckboy. I need to get him away from my sisters. And so what she does is at the end of the book, she's just like, She's had enough. And so she's like, Oh, Sophrona likes you. And then that combined with, I guess, his grandmother gets up and does a public prayer for him because she's like, Armon, he's lost his way.
Beth
Like my grandson, the sinner.
Chels
He's sinning so much, and she publicly embarrasses him in the church right after that. And so this is... So he has come to Jesus moment is like, I'm going to marry Sophrona. And it works out. They like it, and they love each other. But it was just really funny because Armon, I was like, I don't know what to think about him because he's a jerk.
Emma
He's a jerk.
Beth
He is. Yeah.
Emma
But it's also like, I think the twins, when you see the twins sort of hint, it's like, oh, they're just in it for a good time. And like, neither of them... Because they were like, oh, we're going to marry Armon. It's like, you're not... Both of you can't marry him.
Chels
Esme tells them that so many times. She's like, he can't marry you both.
Emma
They're not fighting over him. They're like, he's going to propose. And it's like, what is the plan here? It's all three people are consenting individuals in this like, this like, ménage à toi that's going on in the cave. And yeah, but also Armon, it's It's also a fun... It's also a fun integration of church into the book that's not preachy. It's like, Armon gets saved, but it's charming and makes sense in the universe. There's an epilogue, they mentioned him becoming a preacher, and Cleavis, who's less religious and less in the mountain people, doesn't understand this. And I was like, Oh, that absolutely makes sense that he's a preacher. He's incredibly charming. It's like, Oh, yeah, the worst sinners makes the best preacher.
Beth
Yeah, the best sinner makes the best preacher. I love that line.
Emma
It's cute. Also, honestly, Sophrona deserves someone who's not a leg-man. She has a giant rack, which everyone mentions all the time. Again, Tits Tewksbury. You can't marry someone who's into legs. It's like we all know Sophrona's best feature. Marry someone who's into tits, and then you'll be happy. So I'm glad it works out for her, someone who appreciates her big chest. She deserves it.
Chels
I love where this went. Okay, so I want to talk about the scene in the church. It's early in the book. And so it's after Cleavis has told Sophrona and her family that Esme is dressed really poorly, and then they come to the decision that, Oh, she needs help. So Sophrona has idea for the donation to the crab Crab family comes to fruition. So the Crab family does have a need for the food and the goods and the clothing. But the way that they choose to give these gifts to the Crab family is very self-aggrandizing and humiliating. It's like a very public display. And I really, really felt for Esme in this moment. And I liked that this was when Cleav first starts to understand her. So when in Esme's head, she's describing it as this huge humiliation. And she can slowly see it coming, too. So you see it building up to it, and you can see her just wanting to sink into herself, but also coming to this realization that she's like, Oh, I don't really have anything to be ashamed of. They're asking me to feel this certain type of way with a gift, and I just don't.
But yeah, I love that scene. I think that's one of my favorite scenes in the book, so I thought we could talk about it here.
Beth
Yeah. Oh, my God. This scene, if it were me, I would be like, I can tunnel to the Earth's core in ten minutes. Get out of here. And yeah, it's literally quoting from the book of how Cleav first starts understanding her. Because she's been so unflappable up to this point in pursuing him, I think this is, I hesitate to say a chink in her armor, but the first time you could see Esme being in a vulnerable situation. Quoting from the book, “Esme struggled to keep her eyes unfocused, gazing sightlessly over the heads of the people so willingly doing their Christian duty. Unerringly, however, her glance was drawn from its secret refuge to a pair of blue eyes on the left side, second pew. Cleavis Rhy was looking straight at her. What she saw in his face was understanding.”
So he does see this vulnerability, but it is like pride. In the scene, she's telling herself, I'm worthy. I refuse to be humiliated by So that's the action of what happens. So we shame Esme. And then the reaction to this happens after church. So Cleavis and his mom go to the Tewksburys. That's the preacher's family, and Sophrona's dad, goes to their house, and they're talking about this.
They're talking about the Crabs. And Cleavis makes this remark that he thought the whole spectacle was a blow to Esme's pride. And then they bring up how Esme has been seen following him around, and they ask him about it and what he considers what's been going. And so when he's thinking about what has actually gone on, he blushes, and Morsi calls it a damning flush. So I thought this was interesting. Also because when Emma was talking before on our previous point, he could be calling this off at any time. The fact that he's embarrassed, he is embarrassed by his behavior because I think he knows, Oh, I do like her.
And then another point onto this. I talked about the action of what is happening. So a lot of this book is quiet things happening. We're not having kidnapping and duels and seductions happening in this book. It's this very small thing, but it gives weight to it. So it's like you have this thing happen and then you have people react to it. I think this keeps the tension of the book really well, and it keeps the pacing moving forward at a pretty good clip.
What do you guys think?
Emma
I mean, the person was holding my breath. It's like the garter scene where I was like, if he doesn't come back right this second and tell her that he's happy to be married to her, I was like, I'm going to lose my mind. It's like a page and a half, and I couldn't handle it. I was like, I get the stakes here are so low compared to kidnapping and duels. But it's like the stakes for these people are enormous. And I think that's what works with small town romances or how you pull that off or how you pull off something and not in the aristocracy. It's like you have to have this tension to remind you the stakes for these people are huge. This is the biggest thing Esme has ever done, coming down the mountain and trying to get this husband. It's terrifying and huge for her, even though the scale is so small, being relative to all historical romance.
Chels
Yeah. And just hurting Esme's feelings is the worst thing you can do in this book, I think. Yes. I'm like, this is a nightmare.
Beth
Speaking of hurting her feelings, and I think Emma will bring up this scene. The part we talked about, she gets a dress out of this charity from the church. Her twin sisters modify it. She looks beautiful. She goes to this dance or whatever. And then Cleavis sees—
Emma
Yeah, taffy pull. It's a taffy pull.
Beth
I thought it was maybe like a...
Emma
When they said taffy pull, I was like, Oh, it's like a barn raising where you do other things. And it's like, Oh, they sit down and put oil on their hands and make the candy. And I was like, okay, Cool.
Chels
Sounds like fun.
Beth
Yeah. But when Cleavis sees her in that dress, he's like, What are you doing in Sophrona's dress? And it just completely deflates her. And Morsi builds up the tension so well because all the time before that, she's like, Wow, this is the most beautiful I've ever looked. This is the best dress I've ever worn. And it's so...you want to kill Cleavis.
Chels
Especially because she's thinking, she's like, Okay, this is a dress that Sophrona just threw away. This had to be specially altered for me. We had to work to make this look nice on me. And this is nicer than anything I've ever owned. And I'm afraid to get it dirty, and I'm already getting it dirty. And this is also just this is garbage for Sophrona. She has so many of these. And it's just the humiliating and also humiliating to be compared negatively to Sophrona, specifically in that moment.
The fact that... And this is all... Cleavis the reason she has the dress, because he was the one who was making that comment to her family about how Esme looked like she didn't dress very well. And so they made this big show about her. So all this cycle of humiliation, I don't think she doesn't know the whole scope of it, but it's all Cleavis. And I do really love that scene, too, because then this is when Cleavis, he immediately knows he's like, Oh, I fucked up. Which I'm so glad that that's what you're saying, Emma. There's a quick turnaround to it because he goes and he finds her and he tells her, even though he's not really acknowledging that he's interested in her yet, he's telling her about his time in Knoxville when When he showed up at Knoxville and he had his poorly made, not poorly made. His nicely made suit.
Beth
This wasn't tailor-made.
Chels
It was his mom made it.
Beth
Yeah.
Chels
And it clearly... And the other guys at school were teasing him for being a hillbilly yokel boy or whatever and being mean to him about it. And he had that moment where he's like, Oh, I'm a fancy man from Vader. But when I'm in Knoxville, I'm on a completely different rung of the ladder.
Beth
And to be fair to Cleavis, not to be fair, but I feel like it was a shock to see him because he's only ever seen Esme one way. And literally, that was the prettiest he's probably ever seen her and it challenged what he feels like. It probably challenged what he thought he should feel for her. And he just reacted very negatively in that moment.
Emma
I think also in that moment, there's a combination of things going on in his head where he's like, I'm so attracted to her now more than ever before. I need to do something to... It's like a Chandler Bing, like sarcastic defense mechanism joke. He's noble in the church, and he's like, Okay, I understand her. He's noble when he confronts the preacher about the gesture, and he says, Oh, maybe we hurt her a little bit. And in that moment, I think in that scene, the cruelest comment comes from his mother, which I thought was interesting because it gets explained at the end that the mom actually has more humble background than we realized that she's maybe overcompensating to impress the two experience.
But in this moment with the dress, I think he jokingly accuses her of stealing the clothes. It's like he's creating this distance from this reaction to her attractiveness. But he knows that she didn't go into Sophrona's house and steal the dress. He knows that, but he doesn't also think maybe it would have come from the basket. And this is doubly hurtful to Esme because she thinks he's earnestly accusing her of stealing a dress, which, of course, is someone that It's something that she's very terrified of people thinking of her because she's poor, that she thinks that people are constantly thinking that she's stealing things, like the garters.
She explains the garters away because she doesn't want anyone to think that she's stolen them. So he's doing something on one level of teasing. He's like, Okay, this is going to be a mildly cruel and funny to say. And it's so devastating to Esme. He's like, Oh, I've read the scale wrong.
And then I think the casual cruelness there mirrors his unintentional bluntness he has later. But then Esme has really different reactions to them. And I think that's interesting that in this moment, it's so devastating to her. And then when he said something that he thinks is going to be much more of a cleaner break, she's like, Actually, this is a sign that we're to get married. So he comments on the dress and she runs away. It's so emotionally fraught. But then later, he kisses her after the Sophrona and the tree scene, after the Sophrona slaps him, he gets worked up. And Esme is teasing him about the slap, and then he kisses her. But he ends the kiss by saying, he says, I will not marry you, Esme, not ever. And he's just kissed her, and he thinks he needs to soften the blow, but he's also overwhelmed with his feelings for her.
He's like, I'm just trying to let her down. We cannot get married, even though I'm obviously very attracted to her. But then the next thing we see is Cleav is unable to stop thinking about her. He's like, Oh, I got that kiss. And then Esme is like, she says it for the quote from the book: “Even his wounding words about never marrying her couldn't darken her optimism. He just needs to get used to the idea, she assured herself. He wanted a wife, and one wife was pretty much the same as another.” You think this is the line, and again, this is just how smart Morsi is. You think this is the line—if that was so devastating, the casually cruel comment makes her cry. How could Esme possibly feel about this, I will not marry you comment. And she's like, Oh, this is just a sign we're going to get married. We're getting there. We're getting there. But that is so confusing.
Beth
Imagine someone kisses you and you guys both feel passionate about it, and then he's like, Yeah, we're not getting married. And you're like, Sure. That is confusing. I was there, too. I remember when it was like...
Chels
Do we want to talk about the garters scene?
Beth
We've talked about it. I feel like, yeah. Unless you just wanted...
Chels
No, it's fine. I think I just want to make sure we hit on it, but I think we have.
Emma
I didn't know why the book was going to be called Garters, and I was like, I didn't connect it all, but it was such a good title. I was like, Oh, it is Garters.
Chels
Yeah, the Garters is the whole thing. Yeah. Because the whole very first moment where her stocking falls down, it's because she needs Garters. It's so good, Pamela Morsi. It's so good. Yeah, anyways, that's all we say. We love the garter scene. We love that it's called Garters. Very cute, Pamela Morsi.
Okay, so I was immediately... Cleavis's Trout. Hot Girl Hobby? What do we think?
Yes. Okay, so quick refresher on Hot Girl Hobby. We've got to talk about it a while. We've not even done a Hot Girl Hobby book in a while. Okay, so a Hot Girl Hobby is a thing that someone does in historical romance. That is, number one, it cannot be how they make their money. It has to be something that you could exchange for any hobby. It cannot be so integrated in the plot that if you took it out and put a different one in, that because it would fall apart.
And the third, I think most important part, I'll talk about this, is that it has to be a reason that the couple comes together. I think especially in historicals, the Hot Girl Hobby often is the mechanism that explains why they're together in a way that is ahistorical or is inappropriate. It gives them an excuse because there's some joining over this activity. So it's like they're in a cave together because she's a cave hunter or they're taking a carriage to a scientific conference. So there's some reason that they're spending time together, and it gets you moments of intimacy early. So yes, the Trout is absolutely a hot girl hobby. I I think, especially the way it could be literally anything.
Emma
The Trout, it is really integrated into the plot, and I think that makes it more charming that it's continuing coming back. But I think we've said before the episode, it could be horses, it could be any scientific endeavor. I think it shows the... It's a scientific mind. I also thought about Salmon Fishing in the Yemen, which also is basically this trout thing. You got to move trout somewhere. You got to help them, I guess, procreate.
I think it is helpful to his character development. We also learned that he's anxious about how his intelligence is perceived with the correspondence with the Yankee scientists who are coming down to study his fish. But then we also, of course, see them in an intimate way through the hobby, which I think is an underrated use of the hot girl hobby because it's adjacent to leisure. And so it's like a lower stake. You're more relaxed when you're doing the hobby. And it's also usually something that nobody else in the book is doing. So there's something like you join together over this thing, which is what we see with Cleavis and Esme. And we see them touch each other when they're feeding the fish.
And also, I love the part in the fish where she's standing in front of him and she realizes that their shadows have become one shadow. And she's like, Oh, this is a metaphor for what our relationship is going to be. We're going to become one couple. It's so cute.
Chels
Yeah. I was trying to think of the... Because I think I made a TikTok about this once, years ago, where I said that the Bridgerton boys had hot girl hobbies, and then one of the commenters was like, You should call it a Wealthy Boy Whims. But both of them are funny. I think men can have hot girl hobbies. But when I'm thinking about men having that role, the only ones I could think of the examples of were the non-Anthony Bridgertons because he's the one. So it's like Colin has his quote unquote writing, An Englishman in Cypress. Sorry, I hate Colin's writing. I hate that Julia Quinn made me read Colin's writing. I will never get over it.
Emma
The blessing of the Bridgerton book is that we don't have to look at Benedict's art, which is the downfall.
Chels
We don't.
Emma
I mean, imagine how much art is going to be in the next season. We're going to see so much bad art.
Chels
Would you...It's like, wait, maybe I made this up. Maybe Kate said this, or maybe I made this up, or maybe I said this. I don't remember where I'm getting this from, but I think no, I think it was Kate. What if canonically, Benedict's art is really bad?. His art was just actually asked, but nobody's telling him. I think that is right. I think Sophie was seeing it and was like, Oh, sure. But all of a sudden, he's applying for and taking classes or something, and then they're like, Wow, this is getting a little out of hand.
He's a nepo baby. Anthony got him the job.
Beth
Was it that plot point in at least the TV show where... Didn't Anthony pay for art school and Benedict didn't know or something?
Chels
Don't ask me about the TV show.
Beth
Okay, never mind.
Emma
So let's jusy say Anthony had a conversation to get him in. That sounds familiar.
Beth
I feel like there was a Big Brother assist that Benedict didn't know about, and he was like, not a fan. I don't know.
Chels
He was like, my artistic integrity.
Beth
I've wiped my brain of this.
Chels
Yeah. When we start talking about the show, it's like, I don't remember. I don't remember at all.
Emma
Or the viral TikTok It was like, Here's a headcanon. I can't remember. But yeah, a lot of art is that. I was just thinking about Jack in Titanic. I just saw Titanic again, and I was like, This sucks.
Chels
Have you seen the memes where people, they change what he's drawing?
Emma
They change the picture, yeah.
Chels
They make it something really-
Emma
James Cameron did that. He did the art of Kate Winslet.
Chels
Oh, so you're making fun of the top dog. James Cameron's art. Yeah. If you don't like that. It is really amateur. The proportions are really awful. She's like, It's so good. I'm looking at it, I'm like, It's not good.
Emma
It's not good enough to be like, Oh, my God, Jack, you're It's so good. It's like, Oh, this is fun.
Chels
But it also works because he's not really necessarily a successful artist. And then also, she's down bad. So she's looking at it and she's like, Yes.
Emma
This is amazing.
Chels
I love it. I love it so much.
Emma
Yeah, that's Esme looking at the trout. Like, these trout... Like, her sister's talking about this. The sisters also getting to the trout at the end, which is really cute because they're scientists come and they're hot. But yeah, Esme being like, The trout are so interesting. I'm like, Are they? And he does seem to think they are, but it's cute. But she's so awkward.
Chels
Yeah, I'm like, I'm reading this and it's cute that you all are interested, I think.
Beth
Right. That's the way it's supposed to be. It's just a thing that brings them together.
Chels
It's a thing that brings them together. When she's like, We're feeding the trout and the trout food is nasty. It has to be like moldy or like- It's like, Rotten meat. Rotten meat or something like that. And I'm like,.
Emma
I do love the part... I mean, we're just talking about somebody being smart. She's like, Oh, he invites her to feed the fish, and she's super excited to do it again. And she's like, Okay, we're going to kiss again. We kissed last time. I'm doing the math in my head. This is where we kiss, it's during the fish feeding. And then he leaves her the bucket. He's like, Oh, if you're coming back to the store later, make sure you wash because you're going to smell. And he leaves. And then she sees the fish, and she's like, Okay, this is my job. This is how I can help him. But it's like, again, him trying to set a boundary and doing something over the top bizarre. And it's just like, Okay, I guess I'm with the stinky fish food.
I do have a question, Chels. Have you read any of the other? Because I was ready to get the whole series. I wasn't sure if you had read any of the other ones. I can't imagine anything as cute as Garters, but I thought maybe you had read some of the other ones in the series.
Yeah, I don't think I have. I think I just read Garters, and I really like Garters. But yeah, she's got a whole... It's like Small Town Swains or something.
Beth
It's the sixth one.
Emma
They're not connected. It's not like, Oh, we're going to go to someone we've met. It's just like, Oh, these are just different small towns across the country. It's like, Oh, it seems fun. I'm excited to see different... Because I think she captured Appalachia really well in the dynamics here. I know there's one in Texas and Ohio. It'll be interesting to see how she does small town in different parts of the US. I think different time periods, too. I don't think they're all in the 1880s.
Chels
Yeah, I think she gets later, I think. Yeah. But thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. If you'd like bonus content, you can subscribe to our Patreon at patreon.com/reformedrakes. You can follow us on Twitter, Blue Sky, and Instagram for show updates. The username for those platforms is @reformedrakes, or email us at reformedrakes@gmail. Com. We love to hear from our listeners. Please rate and review us on Apple or Spotify. It helps a lot. And thanks again. We'll see you next time.
