A Caribbean Heiress in Paris

Show Notes

Published in 2022, A Caribbean Heiress in Paris is the first full-length historical romance from Adriana Herrera. We follow Luz Alana Heith-Benzan, who travels to the Exposition Universelle in Paris to expand her family’s rum trade throughout Europe. It’s there that she meets James Evanstan Sinclair, the Earl of Darnick, a Scottish man who works in whisky and goes from being her rival, to her friend, to her husband. The book is a really fun twist on marriage of convenience: a business partnership where the partners are so in love they can’t think straight. Join us and Graciella @grapiedeltaco as we have a little too much fun.

Books Referenced

An Island Princess Starts a Scandal by Adriana Herrera

The Dreamers series by Adriana Herrera

Radiance by Grace Draven

The Prince of Eden by Marilyn Harris

Passion by Lisa Valdez

A Gentleman Undone by Cecilia Grant

Outlander by Diana Gabaldon

Ruined by Rumor by Alyssa Everett

Works Cited

Song of Autumn in Springtime by Rubén Darío

Adriana Herrera on 'A Caribbean Heiress in Paris' and the Hustle of Dominican Women By Amaris Castill

A History of Drinking by Anthony Cooke

A Caribbean Heiress in Paris’ Author Talks Her Ravishing Romance by Rosie Knight

101 - Writing Stories that Reflect Your Own Experience with Adriana Herrera

2022 Interview with Adriana Herrera

Transcript

[00:00:00.400] - Chels

Welcome to Reformed Rakes, a historical romance podcast that straps a mother of pearl pistol to its thigh. My name is Chels, I'm the writer of the romance newsletter the Loose Cravat, and a booktoker under the username chels_ebooks.

[00:00:13.240] - Beth

I am Beth and I'm a grad student and I'm on booktok under the name bethhaymondreads.

[00:00:17.900] - Emma

I'm Emma, a law librarian writing about justice and romance at the Substack Restorative Romance.

[00:00:22.230] - Graciella

And I'm Graciella. I'm an illustrator and a book reviewer on Booktok under the name grapiedeltaco.

[00:00:28.490] - Chels

Published in 2022, A Caribbean heiress in Paris is the first full length historical romance from Adriana Herrera. Herrera is a longtime romance reader who was initially drawn to the gowns, pageantry and drama of historical romance. She said that she loved authors like Joanna Lindsey and Julie Garwood. Growing up, her romance journey started in contemporary. Herrera, who was born in the Caribbean, was watching rising anti-immigration sentiment during the American 2016 election, and her first romance series, the Dreamers, published by Harlequin's queer imprint Carina Press, was partially a response to that. The Dreamers is a romance series that follows four Afro-Latinx best friends who live in the South Bronx, and the series was widely lauded for its willingness to grapple with thorny subjects and for bringing the happily ever after to people who are often overlooked in romance.

[00:01:16.640] - Chels

Now writing historical, A Caribbean Heiress in Paris follows Luz Alana Heith-Benzan, who travels to the Exposition Universelle in Paris to expand her family's rum trade throughout Europe. It's there that she meets James Evanston Sinclair, the Earl of Darnick, a Scottish man who works in whiskey and goes from being her rival to her friend to her husband. The book is a really fun twist on marriage of convenience. It's a business partnership where the partners are so in love they can't think straight.

[00:01:54.140] - Chels

So as you can have heard from the intro, we have someone else joining us today. I am so excited. Thank you so much for joining us. Graciada.

[00:02:03.380] - Emma

Yay!

[00:02:03.860] - Graciella

Thank you so much for inviting me. I love this podcast. There have been so many times where I've been like, ooh, an hour drive.

[00:02:14.700] - Chels

I just like, okay, I'm just gonna gush for a little bit. Like you are probably the most fun person on TikTok. Like I stop everything from like sentient object romance to Animorphs. I connect books with you in a way that I don't associate other booktokers with books that they like. I Know that you love Angels Before Man. I knew that you loved A Caribbean Heiress in Paris. Like, I remember. I remember everything that you do that I see because they're just so interesting and so fun to watch. So I'm so thrilled to have you here.

[00:02:45.730] - Graciella

Thank you so much. I also have been, like, such a big fan of your TikTok page for so long. I just, I feel like listening to you and also like Sanjana @baskinsuns, the way you two handle content as being sort of like video essays. You just make me, like, I can feel my brain cells multiplying when I listen to you speak.

[00:03:08.740] - Chels

Oh my gosh. I'm. I'm just so excited. This is going to be so much fun. And I'm so glad that you picked this book because I had a lot of fun and it gave me so much to think about. I was thinking about it for a long time; not even just like podcast reasons, like, what can we talk about? But I was just like, oh, this is a thing that, like, I had mentioned I wanted some other book to do this. And then, and then Herrera addresses it in this book and it was just. It's a lot to work with. You can tell that she had a lot of fun writing it, but also put a lot of thought and care into it too. And. But yeah. So I think that I want to throw it over to you and kind of talk about maybe why you picked this book. Like, why you love it so much.

[00:03:50.810] - Graciella

No. Yeah, like, this was the book that got me into historical romances for years because I pride myself on being a more eclectic reader. Like, I'll read anything if it's interesting. And so I kept trying historical romances. And granted, like, the ones I was grabbing were histrom at random from thrift stores, so they probably just also weren't good. But I was dnfing early because I just couldn't get engaged with it and then would just immediately donate it back. But this was the first time I had. I was like, scrolling on netgalley just looking for arcs just because, like, I was bored. And I saw this one and it was a historical romance that featured a black woman on the cover and then was a step further of being a Dominican main character by a Dominican author. And I was like, well, wait a minute, I didn't know we could do that. And God, I just felt like I was. I vividly remember being halfway through the arc, sitting in a Panera, giggling, kicking my feet over my sandwich, and like, switching over to find it as, like, Instagram and seeing when the release date was, when the pre-order, like, I was like, went to go pre-order it halfway through the book because I was so madly in love with it.

[00:05:04.930] - Graciella

And it's also just like, the book that made me realize that I don't actually dislike historical romances. I just have a preference for the more like diverse stories, the more diverse leads. And this is book one in a trilogy of interconnected romances that feature this really great friend group of three women who are all just, like, really kind of badass and wonderful in their own ways. But I just. I connected a lot with it because, like you said, you can really feel how much Adriana Herrera loved writing this. And the added layer for me was that you can tell that she is a Caribbean woman who loves being Caribbean. She's so fiercely proud and passionate regarding her cultural identity. And I'm not Dominican, but I am Puerto Rican. And so we're coming from really similar backgrounds and similar cultures. And so it just feels good to see very familiar food references in Spanish being used with so much love and care. And also just sort of like, I just love them. I love Luz and Evan so, so much.

[00:06:14.250] - Chels

They're so fun together. They're. I'm trying to think of, like. I think sometimes we talk about this when people have old movie chemistry where there's like, that immediate bickering but they might have sex at any moment.

[00:06:27.290] - Beth

Yeah. Like, the quick dialogue, the back and forth and just, like, sniping at each other. But always the sexual undertone.

[00:06:34.940] - Graciella

For sure. Literally upon introduction.

[00:06:37.090] - Emma

And pulling that off with, like. One of the things I love about dual POV is that it's like you get to be inside their brains being like, oh, no, I'm in over my head. Like that. That is happening at the same time as the bickering. That's one of the benefits of romance novels that you don't get with even the movie version where you get to be inside their heads and you're like, oh, there's that tension within themselves of this compulsion to bicker. What does that mean for my feelings? I love it.

[00:07:02.280] - Beth

I feel like it's very hard to pull off. So often. I think authors are trying to recreate that dynamic, but it's just. Just bickering. And I'm like, these people kind of seem awful, actually.

[00:07:11.540] - Chels

It has to be charming.

[00:07:13.820] - Beth

Yeah. I still need to be charmed by them. And they need to be charming to each other. Like, I have to see why they like each other. So you see that with Luz.

[00:07:20.970] - Graciella

Yeah. I feel like so many authors really want that enemies to lovers tag, and so they throw in, like, bickering for the sake of bickering, and it doesn't work. And for these characters, like, you can understand, like, Evan just really loves to get Luz riled up. And Luz has a lot to be annoyed with at all times. But what I do think is funny, though, regarding enemies to lovers, I do remember while I was reading the arc for this, one of those trope map promotional images the author posted, one of them was Enemies to lovers. And I think that's my one critique regarding this book is that it's not enemies to lovers at all. It's wrongly promoted on that one front. Evan never sees Luz as an enemy. He's in love with her from moment number one.

[00:08:07.760] - Beth

He's head over heels pretty instantly. Even to the point that his friends are like, hey, you seem a little bit head over heels here.

[00:08:15.900] - Graciella

Yeah. It was literally love at first sight to a degree. Where his friends are like, that's different.

[00:08:21.370] - Emma

As you were saying that, I was remembering because I've seen this book talked about before, and I've seen the cover is gorgeous. The model on it is stunning.

[00:08:28.730] - Graciella

I love the covers for this trilogy.

[00:08:30.270] - Emma

The cover is very evocative. And the way that people talk about the book. One thing I saw people talk about was that they described the model on the cover as dressed like a wallflower. And they're like, she's not a wallflower. And I was like, I don't know. What about this dress? Like, her being gorgeous makes you think she's a wallflower?

[00:08:47.240] - Graciella

I'm literally. I have the book next to me. I'm looking at it.

[00:08:49.350] - Emma

She was staring right at you. I don't know what about this makes you think wallflower. And then also the promotion of enemies to lovers. And I think. Not that that made me, like, more hesitant to read it, but I did. I did think of that promotion going into it, and it's not. And I think it would be a. I could see why people. I could see why maybe a lesser author would take business rivals and make them enemies to lovers, but I like that they're not enemies, but they remain business rivals. Like, those things are not. They're not part and parcel for Herrera and that seems important for their relationship that they need to be allies pretty early, because otherwise Luz wouldn't be getting close to Evan if he was her enemy. She doesn't have time for more enemies.

[00:09:29.310] - Graciella

Yeah. That would have been such a big obstacle. That was like, the only thing that did not make sense was enemies to lovers. It's so. Even on Luz's end, it's like she doesn't even hate him. She just kind of finds him annoying and inconvenient.

[00:09:42.120] - Chels

She was having a bad day and he was there making it worse.

[00:09:46.100] - Graciella

He loves to push her buttons.

[00:09:47.780] - Beth

She finds them inconveniently attractive, which is.

[00:09:50.170] - Graciella

That too.

[00:09:50.840] - Beth

Which is my favorite inconvenience.

[00:09:53.120] - Graciella

Part of the inconvenience is that he's unspeakably hot.

[00:09:54.810] - Beth

She's like, how dare he have such a nice jawline.

[00:09:57.260] - Emma

Kicking dirt he's. so. handsome.

[00:10:00.120] - Chels

We are having too much fun. I need to do the plot summary. Thank you. Some people might not know the plot, so I'm going to summarize the plot right now.

[00:10:09.680] - Chels

The book starts with Luz Alana Heith-Benzan aboard the SS La Bretagne. The year is 1889, and Luz is on her way to the Exposition Universelle in Paris, along with her younger sister, Clarita, and her best friends, Aurora and Manuela. Luz, Aurora, and Manuela are close friends, and they call themselves "Las Leones." They're all professional women, working in the rum trade, as a doctor and as an artist, respectively.

[00:10:34.830] - Chels

Exposition Universelle is the world fair in Paris, and Luz sees it as her opportunity to expand the rum business. Before she was born, Luz's mother, Clarise's family owned and operated a distillery in the Caribbean called Caña Brava. A Scottish immigrant named Lachlan Heath arrived looking for investment opportunities and found not only the distillery, but a wife. Lachlan married Clarice and expanded Caña Brava's operations, and the rum became well known across the Americas.

[00:11:04.640] - Chels

Now, in 1889, Luz's father, Lachlan, has recently died, and Luz is surprised to find that he passed the operations of the distillery to his second in command, leaving her in charge of the distillery's expansion into Europe. Luz is hurt by this revelation, but she finds living in Santo Domingo much too painful.

[00:11:24.370] - Chels

She plans to make connections at Exposition Universelle in Paris, then settle in Edinburgh to continue the distillery's European operations. There's another complication, however, her father never updated the conditions of the trust he set up for her protection when she was 16. Now that she's 28, she still has these same conditions. They state that she can only access her inheritance with either the permission of the trustee or if she marries and her spouse releases it to her. The trustee her father had selected, a man named Prescott Childers, also just passed away, so now the trusteeship is in the hands of his difficult eldest son, a man named Percy.

[00:12:03.910] - Chels

Things are not easy for Luz in Paris when she arrives at the venue. When she's to set up her booth to display Kanya Brava's offerings, the organizers give her a hard time on account of her race and gender. When she finally gets a table number, she's annoyed to find that another man is already occupying her space. Exhausted from the treatment she's received in Paris so far, Luz thinks that she is so angry she could slap this newcomer who had moved her wares and replaced them with his own bottles. "Ladies, if you'll excuse me, I have a man to verbally eviscerate," Luz tells her friends. This man is a large, strikingly handsome Scot, and he seems mostly amused by Luz's anger, which only infuriates her further. She lets him have it, unleashing all of her grievances about her experience at the Exposition Universelle, and the man's countenance suddenly changes. "If you shared the names of the men who have interfered with you, I'd be happy to acquaint them with the proper way to treat our colleagues," he says. Luz is taken aback by his sincerity, but regroups to say that he is the only one interfering with her right now.

[00:13:13.250] - Chels

When she tells the man her name, he recognizes Alana as a Gaelic word, and he asks her if she's also Scots. She confirms that she's Dominican and Scottish and returns her misplaced items to the table, saying, "Today Scotland and Dominican Republic will have to coexist on equal terms." Fascinated with each other, they call a truce. After Luz leaves, we shift to the man's point of view. He is James Evanston Sinclair, Earl of Darnick, more commonly referred to as Evan. Evan is smitten with Luz, and Raghav, his second in command, who runs the whiskey distillery's day-to-day business, gives Evan a hard time about it.

[00:13:51.700] - Chels

Like Luz, Evan is also in a tricky financial spot related to his inheritance. His father, the duke, is a cruel and callous man who imprisoned Evan's mother in an asylum. His father's treachery didn't stop there. He also married Evan's former love, a beautiful young woman named Charlotte. The duke's financial difficulties haven't quite caught up with him, but Evan worries that the Braeburn, the distillery from his mother's side of the family, will Falter under his father's control.

[00:14:21.450] - Chels

Evan is summoned for a meeting that night, and it's there that his half-brother Apollo is introduced. Evan previously believed that he was the second son of the family who became the heir after his older brother Ian died. That's actually not the case. Before his marriage to Evan's mother, the duke sought his fortune in the Americas, eventually marrying an heiress in Cartagena. When the heiress he married died, he abandoned that baby boy Apollo and absconded with his spouse's money back to Edinburgh. Now that Apollo is a wealthy adult, he wants revenge, and he's enlisted Evan to assist in taking down their father. They've systematically bought out their father's debts, planning to use that as leverage to expose the duke at his birthday ball, force him to acknowledge the family he abandoned, and concede that Apollo is the true heir.

[00:15:14.880] - Chels

At their meeting, Apollo reveals evidence that Evan's mother meant to leave the Braeburn to Evan as a wedding gift, meaning that Evan would need to marry in order to inherit.

[00:15:24.750] - Chels

Later that night, Luz, Manuela and Aurora go to a notorious Parisian brothel that is putting on a special program in honor of the exposition. Luz is hoping to get an introduction to a pair of influential merchants at the brothel, but she ends up running into Evan. Or more accurately, Evan sees her at the brothel and hunts her down as he's newly in need of a wife and he cannot stop thinking about her.

[00:15:49.750] - Chels

Evan and Luz banter, with a racy brothel performance going on in the backdrop, but since people are paying to see fellatio and not two distillers bickering, they both get booted from the venue. Outside, they more formally introduce themselves, but Evan conveniently leaves out his title. Evan offers to help introducing Luz to distributors in exchange for using some of their casks to proof his Braeburn Special Reserve. They share a kiss, but are separated when Aurora interrupts. Evan promises to meet with Luz the next day.

[00:16:23.340] - Chels

When he next sees Luz, she's getting hassled by a hotelier named Bridgewood, who refuses to do business with a woman of color. Evan steps in to cajole Bridgewood, making him feel as though he's missing an opportunity, and Luz goes in for the kill, upselling the man for casks rather than cases. After their success, Evan teases Luz about her lack of gratitude to him, and Luz responds that her rum sold itself and that Evan was irrelevant.

[00:16:49.950] - Chels

Evan asks Luz if he can take her to a restaurant, and they talk about their family histories and aspirations. Luz tells Evan that she's having problems with her trustee and that it will be difficult to inherit unless she marries. The next day, Evan attends a party in hopes of seeing Luz Alana. When he arrives with his sister, his name is announced as the Earl of Darnock, and Luz is angry that Evan didn't tell her about the title and assumes that his sister is actually his wife. Evan corrects the record about his sister and allows Luz to rightfully berate him before convincing her to dance a waltz. They continue to flirt, and Evan eventually takes Luz outside to get some fresh air, where he proposes a marriage of convenience. When they're married, he'll be able to inherit Braeburn. Luz will get her trust, and Evan will be able to help Luz create business contacts in Europe. Evan tells Luz that the marriage can be temporary, and once they've both gotten what they want out of it, they can divorce.

[00:17:49.220] - Chels

He takes her up to the Eiffel Tower, where he kisses her, then eventually gets her off. He repeats his offer, but Luz worries that he'll be heartbroken once the marriage ends. He takes her home and Luz consults Manuela and Aurora about his proposal, eventually deciding to accept. Luz gives Evan some additional terms for the agreement. She will not bear his child, and he's not to lie to her or withhold information. She also says that she would like to be intimate with him, much to Evan's delight. Evan agrees, and he tells Luz they'll marry at Braeburn, his property in Scotland. They have sex after Evan reveals that he's using papaya seed lozenges as a contraceptive.

[00:18:28.710] - Chels

Soon after, they are on a train out of Paris. Evan gives Luz his father's aquamarine ring, and she's moved by the gesture. She asks if they can be friends, and Evan tells her they were never friends, "We're something bigger than that," he says. "We're co conspirators. We each hold each other's futures in our hands." In his mind, his thoughts are more poetic. "I don't want to be your friend. I want to be your sentinel, your squire, the body that covers yours every night." Both Evan and Luz Alana privately worry about the temporary nature of their relationship. Luz doesn't dare to hope for something more, while Evan's preoccupation with revenge impedes him from thinking long-term.

[00:19:11.050] - Chels

When they're in Calais on the way to Scotland, Evan's sister Adeline mentions that her father is having a ball soon, and Evan quickly tries to redirect, telling Luz that he never told her about it because he assumed she wouldn't want to Go. Luz interprets this as Evan being ashamed of and devaluing her, and then she gets upset. This is further compounded when Adeline reveals that Charlotte, the Duke's wife, is Evan's former love. Upset at this information, Luz gives Evan his mother's ring back, saying she doesn't need it to hold up her end of the bargain.

[00:19:43.920] - Chels

Later, Evan goes to speak with Luz after learning that she's making sure her rum is stored properly on the docks. He tells her he's worried about her showing up to the docks alone and gets angry at her disregard for her safety. They argue about this before Luz reveals that the guard wouldn't let her in to inspect the wares. Evan doesn't own the warehouse and thus doesn't directly know the guard, but it is a wake up call for him. He isn't able to manage people's reactions to Luz, and he can't shield her from harm. "If you're to survive the next ninety days with me, you must learn to let this kind of thing go," Luz Alana tells him. Evan mostly complies, but he does emphatically tell the guard that the only reason he gets to keep his job is because of Luz's kindness.

[00:20:29.380] - Chels

They check on Luz Alana's rum, and Evan tells Luz that he does not like his father, but keeps his reasonings under wraps. She concludes that Evan married her to spite his father for marrying his former love, and Evan reveals that he never actually loved Charlotte. He then puts his mother's ring back on Luz Alana's finger.

[00:20:49.720] - Chels

They marry at a clerk's office, and then Evan takes Luz to Braeburn. Once there, he's overwhelmed by the idea of his revenge plot and confused about how to handle his relationship with a woman he's grown to love. Luz is a bit at sea at Braeburn and worries about her reception with the rest of the residents. She braces herself for a potentially awkward first dinner and asks the housekeeper to deliver a book to Evan. Later, Evan discovers the book of poetry in Spanish with some handwritten translations by Luz in English. Evan goes to find her and they embrace. He tells her she's beautiful, but Luz knows that he's keeping something from her and that spoils the mood. Evan had just received a letter from his brother Apollo and is troubled with the idea of his revenge plot negatively impacting Luz.

[00:21:38.460] - Chels

Evan apologizes to her for being distant and then they are intimate. Later he takes her to the beach, where Evan shows her that he's constructed a lavish bedchamber under a tent so they can have a getaway. Luz reads poetry to Evan and they are both so clearly very in love. She worries that once they leave Braeburn for Edinburgh, the honeymoon will be over and that Evan will not want her anymore.

[00:22:02.200] - Chels

Once in Edinburgh, Luz is able to secure her inheritance thanks to her marriage, but this win is bittersweet as she notices Evan is growing more distant with her. Meanwhile, Evan is trying to figure out how to prioritize his revenge plot while keeping his relationship Luz intact. He speaks with Apollo, who tells him that if he trusts her, he should tell her about the plot.

[00:22:23.900] - Chels

When Evan tells Luz, she's angry that he's kept this from her as the marriage of convenience is not beneficial to her if he's doing her reputational harm. Apollo arrives while Luz is still berating Evan for his deceit, and he manages to smooth things over by being charming and poking fun at Evan.

[00:22:40.440] - Chels

The next day they arrive at the ball where Apollo and Evan announce to the partygoers that the Duke is a horrible person and that Apollo is the true heir. Their father shoos everyone out of the house and then takes them all to the study where Apollo and Evan tell him about the evidence they have of Apollo's parentage as well as how they purchased his debts. They tell him to sign a statement to be read in the House of Lords acknowledging Apollo and that Apollo and Evan will manage the holdings of the Dukedom going forward.

[00:23:07.610] - Chels

They leave in triumph, but all is not well: someone sets fire to several of the buildings that Evan owns, and Evan wants to get Luz out of Edinburgh to safety. Before she boards the train, Luz Alana remembers that she needs to get her grandmother's recipe book out of her office. When she arrives, she's accosted by Percy Childers, the man who previously controlled her trust. He's furious that he can no longer steal from her with impunity, and he holds a gun on Luz Alana and threatens her.

[00:23:39.150] - Chels

Meanwhile, Evan and Apollo find out that the Duke is likely not responsible for the fire as he complied with their orders and left for the continent fearing for Luz, he goes to her. Office where he finds her and Childers. Childers doesn't notice Evan's arrival, and Luz tries to signal to Evan that she's going to try to reach the pistol that she keeps strapped to her thigh.

[00:23:59.910] - Chels

Evan does not want her to do something so risky, so he mouths "duck," and tackles Childers to the ground. Childers gets arrested and Luz and Evan reveal the depths of their love for each other.

[00:24:12.610] - Chels

Okay, so I want to talk about the setting at the Exposition Universelle because this is the first time I've seen it in historical romance. So the first exposition recognized by the BIE is 1851's Great Exposition in London. And this is where the Crystal palace was built, this world fair. And the Crystal palace does crop up in historicals, like famously, Passion by Lisa Valdez, and probably less famously but famous to me, the Prince of Eden by Marilyn Harris. I've also seen the 1893 World's Fair, Chicago's World's Fair, and Patricia Gaffney's Wild at Heart.

[00:24:45.440] - Chels

One thing that's really interesting about Exposition Universelle in 1889 is that it's had so many more people than the other world fairs before, like an estimated 32 million visitors. The fair the year before in Barcelona only had an estimated like 2 million. And the only other ones that come close were also set in Paris, but they still like about half the amount. So this fair is why the Eiffel Tower was built.

[00:25:09.580] - Chels

So when Herrera was researching the exposition, she found that not only was the Dominican Republic present, But there were 13 Latin countries that were represented at the fair. And since she can read French, she was able to access primary sources about it and use this information as world building. So I'm just so fascinated about this.

[00:25:29.680] - Chels

I'd love to get any of your thoughts, reactions to the setting, which is about like roughly the first third of the book.

[00:25:36.020] - Graciella

I had a lot of fun with it only because I'm a historical romance noob. I've read exactly like, I double checked, I've read six historical romances in my life and half of them were by Adriana Herrera. I have no experience with this history. But what I really appreciated about it is that I think if you're someone like me who's going into this setting completely blind or not very knowledgeable about the history or the time period or the setting or anything in context, Herrera does such a good job of showcasing all of her research. She goes in depth about the rules of this society and how things work and what things are code for and the importance of an event like this. So even if I wasn't sure about the historical accuracy of anything, because I don't really go here, it still felt like well researched and really, really detailed enough to where I felt like I was learning a lot.

[00:26:30.590] - Emma

Yeah, I mean your perception as like a non-historical romance novel reader for this book, I think none of us probably know that much about this thing either because Herrera is taking up a setting that is not used that often. And that's what I enjoyed. I mean, we've talked a lot in the past few episodes about wallpapery romances and non-grounded romances. And one of the conclusions we came to was that you can't write a wallpaper romance that isn't in Regency or Victorian England. And so if you are writing something outside of that setting, there's a bigger burden on you because you don't get to have this reader expectation of like everyone who picks up a Regency romance knows Jane Austen rules and knows they maybe have read other Regency romance. You don't have to explain all this stuff. And so then if you set it outside of England or outside the Regency or Victorian period, there's this higher burden on you. But then how do you do that while it's still being a cohesive novel?

[00:27:22.990] - Emma

And that's what I really liked about Herrera's work, is that sometimes I think when you have these settings outside of this context that's so familiar that sometimes that research, the authors can get too attached to their research, where it's like the details get in there and you're like, oh, they found something out really cool and it has to be shoehorned in.

[00:27:39.890] - Emma

There were very few facts that you learned that aren't coming from exchanges between the main characters, which I liked that Luz is often teaching Evan about the Dominican Republic and Hispaniola. And so she's teaching him that. So that's important for the relationship. It's not just an info dump for the reader. In her mind, thinking about her home or something, it's like serving this relationship. And then also they're interacting with the Eiffel Tower. There's a big scene at the Eiffel Tower. So it's not just coming where she's found out these cool things and even the precipitating event. So she's inspired to write, or Herrera is inspired to write this novel based on the Dominican representation at the fair. And it's like they're meeting at the fair, they're meeting at this context. And so I think that sort of research integrated with the plot is hard to pull off and also important to do. It's this tension between how do you write something that is outside the setting? There is a higher burden for if you're writing outside of Regency England, I think, which is unfair because it's like, I wish more things were written outside of Regency England.

[00:28:43.160] - Emma

But with that higher burden comes you have to integrate it with the romance, because otherwise it just becomes like this info Dump. That is like a less compelling romance. And I think Herrera pulls it off.

[00:28:51.820] - Beth

Yeah, I like how she did that. And it's kind of similar to how Beverly Jenkins will relay history to the readers, where it's like the characters are telling each other because you wouldn't know news isn't traveling as fast. You are updating, like, hey, this is my family. This is my background. Let me tell you about it. So I liked that aspect of it. And then also, just a random thought, I don't know why there's not more references to events like this. She read primary sources about it. I feel like that's such an easy way to get a feel for a time and like a setting. I would love more romances set at these very well known events because I think it would be really interesting from the stuff you could pull.

[00:29:33.910] - Graciella

I agree. But also, especially what you said, where her writing reminds you so much of Beverly Jenkins. I read my very first Beverly Jenkins. A few days ago.

[00:29:42.960] - Beth

Oh, yay which one did you read?

[00:29:44.390] - Emma

We love Indigo.

[00:29:45.230] - Graciella

Indigo.

[00:29:46.060] - Beth

That one's so good.

[00:29:47.600] - Graciella

But yeah, while I was reading it, I was like, oh, wait a minute. I'm seeing the overlap in sort of pulling from these really specific points in time and referencing very specific events and movements and people involved in certain. Like, she's writing in that particular book. It's the abolitionist era and it's heavily focused on the underground Railroad. And it's so researched. And that level of research is also relevant to discussions between characters and explaining the. Was it, I think the free peoples movement, where it was like, so many people were divesting and boycotting certain goods that were utilizing slave labor before, like, the Civil war took place. And it was like, it was like.

[00:30:31.300] - Beth

Yeah, I guess I see Jenkins as like the standard. So I feel like I'm always measuring people against her for, like, how you're doing your world building and layering in the history. Because it's like, I think we've all had that experience where you're watching a show and the writers need to convey some information to the audience so they have one character tell another character. Like, hey, you remember when we were kids or something? And it's like, why are you. Why are they saying that? They already know that.

[00:30:55.420] - Graciella

I hate that type of exposition. Yes. So, hey, little bro. Hey. It's been seven years since mom died. You really need to get it together.

[00:31:04.170] - Emma

Yeah.

[00:31:04.710] - Beth

So I feel like this takes a lot of skill. And I don't think people realize that you're doing character work and world building at the same time, where it's like, you see where Luz is coming from because she's like, yeah, actually I'm from here and this is how I see the world. It's good.

[00:31:22.740] - Emma

It's good writing. I don't think historical romance has to have. I've been thinking about this a lot with the Waterloo books, but as I've reading all these Waterloo books, it has this one thing that happens with a calendar date where we know something happens June 1815. But I don't think historical romance has to have that. And I'm always hesitant to say that, like ones that have these like big moments in them that are so grounded are better than other ones. But I think it's, it's like you, if you do that research, you get to do more fun stuff with the other stuff. I always feel like if you, if you do that, if you have that ground, if that's grounded, you can have these like high stakes, big romantic moments that are more believable. And so it's like, it's push and pull. And so it's like if you're, if you're setting something in Romancelandia and it's in Regency romance and there's just no grounding whatsoever, you lose the ability. It's like that's where my suspension of disbelief is going is into all these ballrooms that don't make any sense and don't have any consideration of why they're being set there.

[00:32:20.660] - Emma

So I think there has to be something pulling it down a little bit to the ground. And this is one way to do it. But it requires a lot more effort on the author's part to do it. And so, yeah, I think, I think there's like room for both in the genre, but I also would like to get to a point where people can write things not set in Regency England with those sort of like, higher concept Romancelandia. Like, I would love to read a Romancelandia sort of. I'm using that as like code for like fake setting, like ungrounded setting in France or like in Asia or like any place that is not England. But I don't know if people feel comfortable doing that because they don't have the, the genre backing that Regency romance does. And I don't know how we get to that place. But I would like for non English settings to be able to have that option to write like higher concept, less grounded works. But I don't know how we get there. But I would like to see that.

[00:33:12.860] - Graciella

You hold them up by sword and you say, read this or else.

[00:33:16.060] - Chels

Yeah.

[00:33:17.260] - Graciella

For their own good.

[00:33:18.780] - Chels

We have to fight everybody. We have to fight everybody because. Well, I feel like. I think it was like, Madeline Hunter, wasn't it, Beth, that you were mentioning that she, wrote. It was, like, about, like, 10 years ago. She wrote, like, an article about, like, how they're.

[00:33:32.810] - Graciella

Yeah.

[00:33:33.410] - Speaker 2

Was it Madeline Hunter?

[00:33:34.650] - Beth

It was Madeline Hunter, and her first book is set in Eastern Europe somewhere. But she had to, like, really fight to keep that setting. In 2000.

[00:33:42.240] - Emma

I do think if you're thinking about writing a wallpaper romance and you're thinking about sending it Regency England, set it somewhere else. Try it. We have enough.

[00:33:50.860] - Graciella

If you were thinking about it, don't.

[00:33:53.050] - Emma

If you're sending something in Regency England, it needs to have. It needs to be so grounded. Like, you need to have a reason why you're doing it. I don't think we need more Regency ballrooms, but. Or we have to be doing something.

[00:34:03.770] - Graciella

We've met the quota. We filled the gap.

[00:34:07.140] - Chels

Something that I was kind of thinking about, especially, like, when you were talking about Beverly Jenkins, is that Vanessa Riley, who does write regencies, but she also. She write women of color. She writes black women. She has this article, I believe it's in the Washington Post, where she's kind of talking about the author's note and there's, like, a higher burden of authors of color in historical. For the author's note to show your work, show your research. Because we, as in, white readers who are reading this, don't believe you. Because we haven't heard this before. So you need to do. You need to, hold our hand show us the resources and, like, point at it. I think about that a lot because when people talk about going to different settings and having different people and all this in historical romance usually how they say it is it's a fantasy. You can do whatever you want. And I'm like, I believe that it is a fantasy and you can do whatever you want. But I also think, like, we're the authors of color, are the ones who are doing the most research and who are putting a lot more thought into it than people who are writing a Regency romance off a memory of a memory of a memory of a Georgette Heyer.

[00:35:17.020] - Chels

So that's just something that. It's like, a little bit of a pet peeve of mine, I think, as kind of like. Or not a pet peeve, but, I think it's like something that I think about when we're talking about fantasy. Like, yes, of course everyone can have fantasy and everyone can have fantasies, but it does feel like a little disingenuous to be like a Caribbean Heiress in Paris. This is a fantasy setting world. When it's like Herrera, I've listened to a bunch of her interviews. She's went through line by line to make sure that things—

[00:35:42.450] - Graciella

She's done the research. She has so much historicaland—and yeah, this is like, I just saw this conversation going on on the hellscape that is threads. I have such a love hate relationship with threads. I love mess, but I hate threads because it's only mess. And I need balance. But no, there's a current conversation where it's a lot of authors of color within the historical romance field, talking about how there's this expectation and this demand for proof that this could even be like, physically possible. And Herrera chimed in on this on threads, talking about how people have told her that none of this is possible, like any of the events in this book is. Are possible. And she's like, well, actually that's not the truth, Ellen. She has all this, she has all this research and she's like, well, no, real people were there. Just because it's not like common knowledge doesn't mean it's untrue. And also, like, she did the research and I also saw this happen. Was it. It's with a Pride and Prejudice remix most ardently where the Lizzie Bennet character is a trans boy.

[00:36:47.970] - Graciella

And so it's this whole thing. And it's very sweet, it's ya, it's remixed. So it doesn't follow like super strictly to the source material, but I think it's strong enough and it has such like a sweet happy ending. And the author's note is like, I recognize that there's probably room for doubt about whether or not this happy ending is even possible, but here's the research on how there actually could be wiggle room for this, in case you wanted to argue. And I was, well, I appreciated that because I love research, but it was just like, I get so annoyed that it's. It feels so necessary because I don't see that anywhere else. Right?

[00:37:22.120] - Emma

Nobody is. No white author is being asked to put an author's note when the Duke falls in love with a maid, like, which is way less likely to have happened. Like, nobody is asking for that. Like, let me show the evidence of this Duke, who's hot and young and unmarried falling in love with a working class woman. Like, yeah, you want, like, authors of color to be able to write their books without this demand. Why does historical accuracy only come up with these authors? And, yeah, it's like, if you think there. There were more Dukes books published in 2023 than there were Dukes in Regency England. So it's like, okay,if we're accepting this, we should be able to accept these other things. But also, I mean, also I applaud Herrera for the level of research she did, but also I don't think she should have to justify it.

[00:38:11.440] - Graciella

She really shouldn't. And it's. It's coming from this really weird place of certain demographics of people and not believing that other demographics of people are capable of being happy and achieving that happiness in and of itself is a fantasy. And it's so annoying. An author who, I'm not gonna say her name. I don't want to summon people. But she said on a panel with Beverly Jenkins present that she doesn't feel comfortable writing any romances that involve people of color or queer people because she can't picture them having a happy ending. So it wouldn't feel possible for these time periods.

[00:38:52.340] - Chels

I want to say her name. Should we summon her?

[00:38:56.140] - Graciella

It's your podcast. You have the ultimate authority on what gives the most.

[00:39:00.820] - Chels

It's Julia Quinn, everybody.

[00:39:02.540] - Graciella

Yeah, Julia Quinn.

[00:39:04.400] - Beth

She won't care about us. And this has already been discussed a lot, too, so I feel pretty safe.

[00:39:10.660] - Emma

Well, yeah. One of the more frustrating things about Bridgerton is the idea that the show has to be sold as an AU. It's like this alternate history in order to have these people of color in romances. And it's like, okay, that's. Whatever.

[00:39:23.100] - Graciella

It was so weird. And they leaned into it, too, by being like, look, this one interracial pairing killed racism. And it was like, everyone was like. Well, wait a minute, that's not.

[00:39:33.070] - Emma

Yeah, it doesn't have to. It's not an alternate history to show people. And also, I mean, the other issue it's like we have this alternate history of the Bridgertons where they're in the ton. And it's like, okay, well, maybe they weren't in the ton, but they still existed. And it's like if you divested from having to have people who are titled or having to have people who are, like, lives of leisure. Like, if you show. If you did romances, of the Regency of working class people. Some of those people are gonna be people of color. Some of those people are gonna be queer. All these things are available to you if you just stop writing so many fucking Dukes. But that's neither here nor there.

[00:40:09.910] - Graciella

Put the Duke down.

[00:40:12.390] - Emma

Yeah, put it down.

[00:40:15.910] - Chels

That's, like, the most confrontational I've ever heard. You. I just.

[00:40:18.640] - Emma

I'm tired of the Dukes. I'm tired of them. Yeah. No, I've been so. Graciella. I've been reading all these old category romances. And that's the thing. It's like, none of them are in the ton. None of them are aristocratic. And so it's these old books that were published in the 90s, like, 80s and 90s, that I've mostly been reading. And none of them. None of them have titles. And it's like, this is so charming. And we, like, lost this. And I'm annoyed by the Dukes. That's why I'm so heated.

[00:40:41.960] - Graciella

Abolish Dukes.

[00:40:43.800] - Chels

Honestly. Honestly. Yes. Yes. I got, like, so serious. I'm in Scotland right now. I'm like, yes.

[00:40:50.070] - Emma

Yeah.

[00:40:50.970] - Chels

Yes.

[00:40:51.840] - Beth

Get rid of the Dukes.

[00:40:53.160] - Graciella

Why don't we? A wind appears. Like some sort of flag is flying behind me mysteriously. Well, yes, actually.

[00:41:00.560] - Chels

It's like I just stopped recording right now. I'm like, I have. I have something to do.

[00:41:05.830] - Graciella

Pull a sword out of nowhere. I'll be right back.

[00:41:10.950] - Chels

Okay. I'm gonna take this energy into the next question. So we've. I think we've invented this, but it also might be because it's, like, a little bit stupid and nobody else would, but, like, this term. So good, though, second son syndrome in historical romance. And it basically just means, like, a second son with a chip on his shoulder. Like, he has bad feelings about not being the heir or for being treated, like, as less than the heir. And that's, like, his burden to bear throughout the book. So Evan is kind of funny because he's born a second son, then he becomes the heir, only to revert himself back to the second son again. So Evan doesn't have second son syndrome because, like, he treats the title as mostly irrelevant and has, like, actual grievances against his father. Like, grievances that aren't just like, why don't you like me?

[00:41:58.210] - Graciella

His dad doesn't like anyone. Yeah, that is a problem.

[00:42:01.370] - Chels

I think your dad is a bad man, Evan.

[00:42:03.300] - Emma

Don't take it personally.

[00:42:04.530] - Graciella

The dad is the bad guy.

[00:42:08.390] - Chels

So I thought it would be good here to talk about Evan's relationship both with his father, the Duke and also with his half brother, Apollo.

[00:42:16.420] - Beth

I think this is interesting because it's almost like, what if the second son had a choice? He could be the heir and Evan can be if he wants. All he has to do is not help Apollo or even undercut his claim. So, yeah, I felt like this was an interesting thought experiment.

[00:42:32.390] - Emma

Yeah, I feel like it's kind of like horseshoe theory of second son. He's the final boss of second son. And I thought of the meme while you were partying, I was studying the blade. It's like, Evan prepared to be the second son, and now he's the first son. And he's like, actually, I'm prepared to be the second son. And like, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna devastate everyone around me with my skills. I also thought about. This is a very TikTok pop psychology. But I thought about the dynamic of Luz being the eldest daughter, because I feel like that's like, very much part of her personality. Like this. This, like, oh, yeah, gendered oldest child aspect of her, like, inheritance, where it's like, she's invited into the company because she's the oldest and she has access to this relationship with her father, but then she is disappointed to not inherit in the way that she expected to. Like, he's given. She's created a trustee for her inheritance. And so that experience of kind of being like a second son, where you're trained for one thing and then it's not, but you don't get the same access.

[00:43:31.240] - Emma

And the. I think so much of the book is about them having parallels between each other. And I think that birth order dynamic puts them in similar positions. And then also I think him being a second son contributes to him being, like, bowled over by Luz. Like, I think if he was being. If he had been raised to be a duke, it would not or Earl. Right. He's. What's his final title is Earl.

[00:43:50.640] - Graciella

Right.

[00:43:50.840] - Emma

Earl.

[00:43:51.140] - Chels

He's an earl, but he will be a duke.

[00:43:52.360] - Beth

He's an earl, but his dad's a duke,

[00:43:53.960] - Emma

so if he'd been raised that he was going to be.

[00:43:56.020] - Graciella

He's important, kind of.

[00:43:58.280] - Chels

He's a big deal in select whiskey circles.

[00:44:00.810] - Graciella

He's titled whatever.

[00:44:02.790] - Emma

I think if you've been raised as the first son, their relationship would not have started the same way. Like, he. Even though he is an earl, and she puts points this out. It's like, why didn't you tell me you were an Earl? It's like he doesn't really think of him that way. And also he sees that as Like, a distinct personality. He's like, I'm not. I'm not like people who were raised to be a first son, and if I were, I wouldn't be interacting with you in this way. And he sees that as a virtue. Well, Lou sort of sees it as, like, a subterfuge. Like, he's been lying to her, and he's like, actually, I've been, like, indulging this thing that is actually true to me. I'm not lying. The Earl feels like what I'm lying about. To act like that would be a lie.

[00:44:38.320] - Graciella

No. Yeah. I think their dynamic is just really funny because it's that oldest daughter, younger son situation, because that's something that's pretty. I think there was some sort of study recently that talked about the likelihood of birth order relationships, like, with romantic couplings, and, like, how it's actually weirdly common for eldest daughters to be paired up and enter relationships with younger sons. And I agree. I think if he were primed to be a duke from the very beginning, he would not enjoy this woman putting him in his place nearly as much.

[00:45:16.370] - Beth

It would be like the first time anyone had ever done it. He'd be like, excuse me?

[00:45:20.370] - Graciella

Yeah, it would be different. But he's like, I have a crush on you, actually. But, yeah, he doesn't really care for these titles. And I just think he's really funny because it's like, why didn't you tell me that you had this title? And he's like, well, even I don't care, so I don't know.

[00:45:40.160] - Chels

So, yeah, I think Evan's relationship with Apollo is really important to how he's going to react to Luz for the first time. Because, like, he's already kind of negotiating, giving this away. It's not really something that he ever thought he was gonna have for long, and he's given it away already in his mind. He's like, revenge plot and whiskey expansion is what I'm gonna do. And that meshes so well with what Luz wants, which is rum expansion. It's a partnership. I think it's just so fun. And they have this kinship with each other, this kind of connection. I think that also, I feel eldest daughter and second son, both are coming from a place of a certain type of neglect. Like, if we're talking about how they're received, maybe too much responsibility, and you get to frolic in the woods a little bit, but it hurts your feelings. So these two, they both kind of have a little bit of a grievance or a little bit of a certain type of feeling about how they're supposed to behave. And I can see how they are so compatible.

[00:46:41.940] - Graciella

Too much responsibility, not enough credit. They're so similar in a way that's so much fun. They're both, like, really staunch. Like, they're protectors in their family. Like, they care for their siblings so deeply in a way that's so similar. Like, they just love to take care of their family, and they're very independent and very stubborn in nature. And their work ethic and their drive is basically almost the same. But I just. I just love to see them just, like, be almost the same person in different fonts.

[00:47:12.210] - Emma

Something about the phrase, like, a lot of responsibility and not enough credit. Like, it reminds me. So I don't think enough authors explore this because I think it is like, a historical reality, because Elizabeth Hoyt does this in one book, and I don't remember which one it is. It's the one that ends in a way that I don't like, but I don't remember the name. Notorious Pleasures, where the second son goes into trade, and his trade is what sustains the noble family, which is kind of what's happening with Evans. His business is. It's the one profitable thing in the estates, and it's like they're ashamed of the trade. And I think in Notorious Pleasures, it's also. It's gin, I think. And so that idea that, like, you're. You're the spare, but you also. And you do. You have to go into trade because you don't have any money, because you're not going to inherit. But also that trade is sustaining the family. Like, that, I feel like, is an underexplored aspect of, like, second son syndrome, I think so often we see second sons have a chip on their shoulder because they're not inheriting the title.

[00:48:03.460] - Emma

But that added aspect of, like, I'm not inheriting the title and my business is keeping, like, our family afloat because my brother's not allowed to work because he's gonna be a duke or an earl. So I like that aspect. I think the way that trade works in this book is just so pointed and smart. I think every time you think about labor and selling things and money, Herrera has thought very critically about how was that aspect coming up.

[00:48:26.630] - Chels

That actually gets kind of really goes really well into the next question that I have. Historical Romance kind of has this weird thing where kind of the main focus of oppression tends to be white Scottish men. Like, they're often paired with, like, English Ladies and are treated as lesser than in these stories. So kind of what makes this focus on Scottish men like, really messy is that Scotland is both oppressor and oppressed. The country has had a major role in the transatlantic slave trade, the Boer War and colonization of India. So Glasgow in particular was called the second city of the empire. And what's super interesting about a Caribbean eras in Paris is that Herrera addresses this head on with both Luz and Evans speaking about aspects of their family history. Luz, Alana's father was an abolitionist who was disowned by his Scottish family for his views. And some of Luz's recent ancestors on her mother's side were enslaved.

[00:49:18.970] - Chels

Meanwhile, Evans family has profited greatly off the transatlantic slave trade. So in an interview with Nerdist, Herrera spoke about writing privilege in discrimination, saying, "I wanted it to be addressed in a way that it was clear and where there were consequences and accountability from Evan, who is this white man with all this privilege and power. To me, it's about creating characters for whom these realities were something that they've been negotiating and thinking about for longer than the moment they met." So I guess I'm gonna kind of leave this open ended too, because it's a lot to think about. But like any kind of related thoughts you have on like any of this or even on just like Herrera's quote.

[00:49:55.490] - Emma

So I thought about how both of their identities have like the way that they're talked about in romance and also in discourse. I feel like this is like a wider thing that happens with both of their. But Luz's racial identity and then Evan's national identity with like how they're attractive. Like, I think that is. We've talked about this maybe not on the podcast before. I know we've talked about this personally. The way that like Scottish men are written in romance and it's like that their attractiveness is somehow tied to their Scottishness and like it's connected to Scotland. Like their, their fiery temper and like they're brogues and like there's something about like the greenery of Scotland as contrast to London. And it's like this is the way that this man is attractive. It's repeated so often. And also like the size of Scottish men is such a big deal. Evan is very tall, but a little. It's sometimes it's like looming.

[00:50:39.620] - Chels

It's not mentioned as ad nauseam, like as it is in a lot—

[00:50:43.070] - Emma

It comes up so often. And we've talked about this before where it's almost like white authors sometimes will have A Scottish man. It feels like a colonial fantasy. Like, they're doing this with Scottish men because they know they can't pull it off with men of color anymore. And it just. It's a weird dynamic. And it's like. I mean, I'm sure it's like 90% of these books are Scottish man, white woman, or she's. She's English. They're both white.

[00:51:04.650] - Beth

English. Yeah.

[00:51:05.290] - Emma

But it's like she's taking the role of, like, a bitty white woman, and he is the othered. Not racial, but, like, othered identity. And I thought it was so smart to pair a Scottish man with a woman who also experiences, like, the way that her attractiveness is described. And Evan even does this a few times in the book. It describes her attractiveness in terms of her Dominican identity. Like, he uses sort of. He points out when she wears tropical colors, and he sort of points out, like, that she sort of. She has this, like, sensuality that he's not experienced. But I think also if you track his attractive, his attraction to her, over the course of the book, it becomes more and more personal. And, yeah, I just. I thought it was just smart to have these identities that are paired together and are, like, looked like. Think of, like, the way that people talk about, like, Latina women's, like, hot tempers. And it's like, that's also something that's paired with, like, Scottish men. And just that you watch it become more and more personal. It feels so smart to have them together. And it becomes more romantic where it's like, it goes from this, like, sort of large identities, they're learning about each other to their individual personalities.

[00:52:07.290] - Emma

The characters don't really have a moment where they talk about it. I feel like it's more like for the readers to be like, wait. The way that I've read Scottish men maybe has been fucked up in a lot of romance novels that I've read. And I thought that it was clear that Herrera is, like, a fan of the genre. And the fact that you mentioned Julie Garwood or that she has mentioned Julie Garwood, I was like, I see that she's probably read lots of books where Scottish men are described that way.

[00:52:27.870] - Chels

Yeah. So I've kind of been thinking about this, like, constantly since moving to Glasgow. Like, as Glasgow is kind of currently experiencing, like, a mo. A movement of publicly acknowledging, like, for the first time, like, the money in Merchant City, like, where that actually came from. And it's a very dark history that people don't usually associate with Scotland. Like, people talk about it with the United States, like, a lot more openly than they do about Scotland. And so I was thinking about, like, the way that historical romance writers handle Scotland has also changed, like, quite a bit. Like, Marsha Canham, Laurie McBain, like, even like Diana Gabaldon all wrote about, like, kind of the Jacobite rebellions. So they're rooting their story in historical events where England is the colonizer, and we're kind of, like, grappling with the usual implications of that, like the loss of language, like culture, like mass death. And not to say that those authors, like, handled it perfectly, but it was something that they were thinking about. So when you get into more recent years, you have these other historical romance authors that pull Scottish heroes into, like, Victorian settings. So it's set much later, and these men are wealthy, but they're, like, surrounded by English people who are, like, calling them brutes and disrespecting them.

[00:53:43.230] - Chels

But it's troubling to me that historical romance authors focus on white Scottish men as kind of, like, the main victims of oppression when it's so complicated. Like, the history is so complicated. It's very complicated. So it was something that I was thinking about a lot when I was reading a Caribbean Heiress in Paris. Like, I loved the way that Herrera, like, really turned this into a conversation between Luz and Evan. Evan isn't going to try to tell Luz Alana that he knows oppression like her because he's a Scot. Like, that would be ridiculous. He's wealthy, he's a white man, he's an earl, and his family money came from suffering. Instead, he's kind of laying this bare for her. And it's something that they both kind of have to acknowledge as a reality of their relationship. There's a messiness to it that is kind of like how a lot of people have to just live their lives. Like, knowing that something about your family history, the way that she was able to have them connect to each other and speak to each other and be honest with each other, which is something that is really important important to Luz. She can't love someone who wouldn't be able to speak with her about these things and to where she wouldn't be able to acknowledge them. And so I just thought that was so smart. And it does feel like kind of like how you said, it almost feels like a reaction to these Scottish heroes.

[00:55:03.430] - Graciella

I also just, in general, Herrera, she does this thing with her interracial romances where the person with more, like, social power or privilege What I really appreciate about Evan is that he recognizes that he has this privilege. And he never tries to, like, rescue Luz from her situation. He never tries to speak on her behalf, and he never tries to, like, compare the two of them in terms of, like, see, I. I get it. Like, I. I've been there. But what he does is that he. He still does what he can to advocate and be an ally to her and his brother. Like, when, like, he assists slightly in, like, helping her meet different potential, like, networking opportunities. And he just sort of he helps open doors because he knows he can. But then he sits back and lets her speak for herself, which feels like the bare minimum. But it's still really good to see. Because I think what's being done is Herrera knows what she wants in an ally for herself in life. And I think that that heavily influences how she models especially these romantic partners to be allies for these characters that she's creating, especially when these are partners for characters that are so similar to herself.

[00:56:20.400] - Graciella

And I really. That was one of the reasons that made me just love this romance. It's not pushing this white savior narrative. He's not coming in to swoop in and save the day and take care of her and handle everything and give her all of the opportunities. He recognizes because of the relationship he has with his brother and because he's watching this other person who he loves and cares about so much be discriminated against unfairly. He already is primed for these conversations, and he already has experience trying to help open doors for people like Apollo and Luz.

[00:56:58.810] - Emma

There is the one scene where he at the ball when she hands her business card to the distributor, or she's trying to distribute the rum. And he, like, does it. He does kind of too big of a reaction, but I loved that he's the one who thinks, like, oh, I did too much here. Like, she doesn't have to tell him he does it. And he's like, I should have had this happen outside. I should have, like, I could have handled this and helped her in a way that was, like, less embarrassing to her. And then he doesn't fuck up again on, like, that vector. But I like that it doesn't become. I expected it to be, like, this dressing down moment where it's like, she has to explain to him why he fucked up. And basically the moment he does it, he's like, oh, I've gotten us into a situation that I came in too hot and this is embarrassing for her. And I have to fix it. And I liked that he figures it out because he has this practice.

[00:57:46.260] - Graciella

Yeah, he's not perfect, but he's also self aware.

[00:57:49.180] - Beth

I do, like, sometimes I feel like authors will maybe dump all the good attributes on one character and all the bad on the. On, like, a bad character, quote, unquote. But I don't know where else to dump this thought, but I really liked that. So Luz has this situation with her money and that her father has put it into a trust. And so from the book, it says, "Among the many surprises Luz had a grapple with in the past year, the most disconcerting one had been the realization that her father had never changed the conditions of the trust he'd set up for her when she turned sixteen." So at its most benign, maybe her father never thought he would die so soon and would have left his daughter in this kind of situation. But I just need to emphasize how scary and how very powerful trusts are. Just imagine you have to go to someone for your money and that person can just carte blanche, make any choice they want.

[00:58:47.500] - Beth

So her father's an abolitionist and obviously even leaves his country because he's like, I don't believe the same thing you guys do. But he still kind of condescends to his daughter in a way, or, like, doesn't believe that she can handle this on her own or doesn't give her full access to what she needs. So even that little detail, I was like, I really like that Herrera did that.

[00:59:11.710] - Chels

Yeah. And I think Luz kind of in the beginning of the book, she's kind of thinking about the trust, too. And she's kind of thinking about, questioning, how her father saw her because of the unexpected scenario of her taking over European operations, which is kind of another thing, too. It's kind of like, how do you think about this? Because Herrera has kind of categorized Luz in an interview I read as being like, when she's in the Caribbean, she's a little bit under her father's protection. So there's a lot of negative reactions that she's shielded from. And so there's this death, this new role, moving overseas by yourself. And it's kind of. It seems like you can kind of love someone. And also maybe not, like, I don't want to say, set them up to fail, because I don't believe that's what he did because, like, he. He loves her and believes that she can do it. But, like, he didn't. He didn't really set her up in a way where she would have an easier time for this.

[01:00:12.590] - Chels

I have kind of like, diverging thoughts about that because, like, I think, like, it's very important to Luz Alana to be able to advocate for herself and to be able to move through the world by herself without a protector or somebody who's like, cracking knuckles in the background. Like, that's very. That's very important.

[01:00:32.360] - Beth

Do you want your parent to set you up for success? I feel like that feels...

[01:00:36.540] - Chels

Yeah, I think. I think that's kind of like maybe, like maybe carelessness or maybe like, it could be careless. It could be. But that's also like, it's not even something that would be unique to him as a character. I think this happens in historical romance all the time. Somebody dies very careless.

[01:00:56.330] - Beth

Famously Mr. Bennet. Very careless.

[01:00:58.550] - Beth

Like, where it's like you want like a very bad intention, where it's like complicated and then you have complicated feelings as a reader. And I think I prefer that kind of reaction. Like, I want conflicted feelings. How am I supposed to read this? What kind of man was he? Like, do you know what I mean? I really like that.

[01:01:15.320] - Chels

You can love someone and then also, like, do something weird to them with their trust.

[01:01:19.220] - Beth

Yes, exactly.

[01:01:20.530] - Graciella

You know, when you accidentally mess up someone's trust, I'm always doing this.

[01:01:25.840] - Chels

Oops.

[01:01:27.540] - Graciella

Don't you just hate that?

[01:01:29.820] - Beth

I'm always leaving money in the incorrect way for my children

[01:01:31.980] - Graciella

Again?!

[01:01:32.630] - Chels

Yeah.

[01:01:33.460] - Graciella

It happened again?!

[01:01:36.050] - Emma

I like the theme of people who doing are like big political actors. Like her dad being an abolitionist and still maybe having like, some sexist thoughts behind it.

[01:01:45.810] - Graciella

He still did a misogyny.

[01:01:48.610] - Emma

So Mary Shelley's father, it's like he was an abolitionist. He married Mary Wollstonecraft, but then when his daughter is running off with Percy, he's like, don't do that.

[01:01:57.330] - Beth

He's like, over my dead body.

[01:02:01.120] - Emma

He's actually like this conservative in the face of his daughter. And it's like, yeah, this is like, better men than Luz's father have had some trouble, like applying their political radicalism to their own family lives. So. But it's like seeing that—

[01:02:15.320] - Emma

Which is realistic. I mean, to this day, people who are. Who view themselves as more like liberal or leftist or open minded will still have those limitations and still have those. Those blind spots in those areas that desperately need more development. It's better than nothing, but it still has room for improvement. I think that's what I appreciate also about these characters in this book. That again, they're not perfect. They're better than what we were expecting. But in Evan's case, he's still open to learning, which I can only hope was going on with Luz's dad. It seemed like maybe, I don't know, especially because she. That was so unexpected for her. And that definitely feels like something that would have been a topic of conversation between them. So maybe, yeah, maybe conversations towards the end were different than what was done when the trust was created. And we have no way of knowing that.

[01:03:11.350] - Emma

He's very like, leftist man who's read Marx but not bell hooks. He comes up with like, the worker

[01:03:17.210] - Graciella

Real!

[01:03:18.260] - Emma

worker agreement for his. It's like, yeah, all the workers have shares. But, like, you can't think of your daughter as maybe possible that she can. She can run this. So he's just got to expand his theory that he's reading.

[01:03:29.820] - Chels

We're going to move on to marriage of convenience. I love marriage of convenience stories and romance because they inevitably end in, oh, no, I love my wife. But I realized that they aren't all built the same. And what struck me with Luz and Evan is that I feel like if they didn't have these stressors going on in the background, Evan would have fully courted Luz and it would have easily been a love match. So I'm thinking that maybe this could fall under, like, right proposal, wrong time. Because Evan is head over heels from the jump. But he's also fully in the midst of his revenge plot with his brother.

[01:04:00.570] - Chels

So what are your feelings on marriage of convenience and how this relationship progressed?

[01:04:05.630] - Graciella

I love it so much. I eat it up for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I just, I love, like, all the different ways that marriage of convenience can impact a love story. Like, I think one of my favorite types of, like, one of my favorite examples of marriage of convenience of all time. It's like this high fantasy kind of monster romance. I don't think he's a monster, but he's like a different fantasy species. But it's Radiance by Grace Draven. And it's like these two royals from, like, different clans. I guess the woman is like, human. And then the guy, I forget what he's called, but, like, you can see him on the cover. He's like this grayish black creature, humanoid man, question mark. And what's great is that they're both, respectively, not super important enough in their royal families for this to be serious. And this is a arranged marriage kind of where it's purely political, but it's also removing them from the pressure of having to find a love match anyways. And then because they're so irrelevant to the. They're so far removed from being the heir. Like, these are both, like, younger siblings. Like, they're not, like, close to gaining power.

[01:05:24.800] - Graciella

There's also no pressure on either of them to produce an heir, which is why they're both chosen for this match, because the two species, like, are not biologically compatible, so they couldn't make an heir anyways. It's just like, purely political to, like, put everyone on good terms. And canonically, these two find each other so terrifyingly hideous. It's a dual POV. And it's really funny because they're both so unsettled by the other's appearance. They're oftentimes, they're flinching when they have to look at the other person. But the thing is, is that they meet before the wedding and they're so chill about it. Like, they find each other, like, so off putting, but they're. They still respect them as people. Like, they respect each other as people. And so they kind of just like, agree to be friends. They're like, hey. And they get married and then they go back to his kingdom and she's open to trying, like, his cultural foods, even though it's really, like, it doesn't sit well with her, but she's still open to it. And they're learning about each other's culture and languages and stuff like that. And they're falling into this sort of, like, I guess we can be friends.

[01:06:33.410] - Graciella

But then through that becoming friends, they start to fall in love with each other. And then what's really cool is that because they fall in love, they start to find each other physically attractive. And so then it's like this, like, level of confusion of being, well, wait a minute, I find my wife attractive. When did that happen? And they have these moments where they're like, I can't believe I ever found him ugly. And it's really sweet. And I just, I really, I love it. And I love that in the case of this book, Evan is like, head over heels, smitten like a puppy dog for her from literally the first time they interact, even though, like, she's yelling at him. And it's really great. But marriage of convenience is sort of convenient in this plot, in that it speeds up the process for them. Like, you can tell that this was inevitable, and it just sort of takes on a new level of convenience because it makes things happen sooner rather than later. I think what makes marriage of convenience really great is that due to the nature of the relationship, the two parties aren't obligated to fall in love.

[01:07:38.240] - Graciella

They've already found some sort of situation where they're married for social, financial, political reasons or whatever. And so there's not even an obligation to be friends. Just sort of, maybe we can be cordial, I don't know. But then it, like, alleviates them from this pressure to be in love. So then it's like when they. When it does happen, it's like, ugh, it's extra real. Like, it's extra for real. I love it so much.

[01:08:05.940] - Emma

Yeah, it's like this combination of marriage of convenience and insta love, which I feel like is. I think sometimes those are set up as, like, opposites. It's like we're getting married or we're having this, like, reason that we're together is convenient. And so we are. We don't have any feelings for each other. Like the one Graciela was describing with the. The monster romance. It's like, oh, this really is just like we're just getting married without any feelings. But this is. This is both. And. And I like that I. We've talked about this before where tropes, like, their utility of describing a book through tropes is I. I find with the more romance that I read and the more interesting romance I read, the less useful it is because it doesn't capture what's actually happening. And it's like to call this a marriage of convenience and you think you're being set up one way and something else is happening. It's like, that's so much more interesting to me than a marriage of convenience that actually fulfills all the beats of those tropes. We still get oh, no, I love my wife moment, but it's also like, he's been in love with her since page 10.

[01:09:08.070] - Emma

I also feel like he's known it. I feel like the distance between his realization and his feelings is so much smaller than a lot of marriage of convenience heroes. Also, we've talked before about how there's oh, no, I love my wife, and then you kick dirt and then there's oh, no, I love my wife, and then you go find your wife, and he's definitely like a go find your wife guy, which I love. Those are the two types. And I'm glad that he wasn't mad about it at all, because why would he be? Because she's awesome.

[01:09:34.990] - Graciella

I think for him, it's more like, oh, my God, my wife likes me back.

[01:09:42.380] - Beth

Yeah. I kind of like how Herrera mixes these two things, like Emma said that don't seem like they should mix, because it's like, they do get married for one reason, and then the fact that they're falling in love is a complicating factor instead of making it easier. I feel like in other Marriage of Convenience stories, it's like, I love Marriage of convenience, but I feel like the arc is simpler where it's like you kind of start at opposite ends, and then you come together and you're. When you realize you're in love, then you're, like, solidified in your marriage. But I feel like playing around with it and being like, oh, no, we said we were going to break up. And we haven't really examined being in a relationship with each other other than for these financial reasons. So it's like, you have to reevaluate your relationship again. And I think it can kind of play around with that relationship arc a bit, which I really enjoyed. And this book reminded me of Ruin by Rumor by Alyssa Everett, where it's like a hero is just using a situation to make a marriage happen because he really is in love with her.

[01:10:44.610] - Graciella

Evan is so happy he gets this opportunity. He's like, yes, I'm in.

[01:10:53.110] - Chels

He's like, wait. Apollo is like, okay, well, bad news. You need a wife. And then he's just like, where's Luz?

[01:11:03.890] - Emma

She reveals, like, oh, like, the situation of my trust, I have to get married. And he's. I just imagine his eyes getting bigger and bigger. It's like, she also not even like, I just need a wife, and I want Luz. It's like, she needs a husband. And I can, like. I like that—

[01:11:17.830] - Beth

I can do this.

[01:11:19.180] - Emma

—He's. He's like, he only wants to do it if it's, like, it's also a convenient marriage for her, which is. It feels like, very typical of his character is like, I'm not gonna do this unless it's also serving her. And he'slooking for a way for it to serve her. And then she's like, well, actually, I need to get married, because the trust, like, what a bummer. He's like, that's the best thing I've ever heard.

[01:11:36.060] - Graciella

He's like, oh, yeah, bummer. Anyways, that's so weird that we're talking about this, actually. What a crazy coincidence, actually. He says with a smile plastered on his face.

[01:11:51.010] - Chels

So I love that you brought up Radiance, because I don't think I would have connected that book to this, but it makes so much sense because I remembering. I love that book so much. That book is amazing.

[01:12:03.430] - Graciella

So good.

[01:12:04.850] - Chels

It's one of the best friends to lovers, too. That, like, yes. It's just.

[01:12:09.200] - Graciella

It's.

[01:12:09.680] - Chels

I think it's, like, the bar for me for friends to lovers, honestly. Like, I think that's.

[01:12:13.250] - Graciella

No, truly. They're so respectful of each other, and then they're like, wait a minute. When do you get hot?

[01:12:18.770] - Chels

It's so good. And thinking about that couple and kind of, in relationship to Luz and Evan, they're both teams. They both kind of have this mutual goal and support and kind of, like, helping each other navigate through a world in a space that might be kind of different. And, like, it doesn't. It's more obvious in Radiance, because you're kind of in a world that we don't even know. So we're kind of navigating through it. But, Luz doesn't. She's at Braeburn, and she's kind of a little bit uncomfortable. She doesn't know. She doesn't know how she's gonna be received when she's taken downstairs. And so Evan kind of has to be thoughtful of her. He needs to anticipate her needs, and he needs to communicate that he's on her team. He's not going to. I say this again. He's not gonna crack knuckles and pave the way for her, but he has to be more deliberate in ways that it does remind me of the camaraderie that the couple in Radiance had.

[01:13:23.520] - Graciella

Also, though, yeah, they're not enemies, and this is the opposite of enemies to lovers. Like, they're so, like, Even when. Honestly. And, like, the whole thing with the traditional marriage of convenience thing being they're on opposite ends and they come together honestly. The only thing that's really stopping so much of their progress is how much Luz is hesitating. Because we open up on her being like, I don't need a man. I don't want a man. Wait a minute. There's a man I want. No. And so that's where a lot of because Evan's all in. Like, he's all in before he even knows her name. And so a lot of it's every timeEvan takes two steps forward Luz takes one step back. And that's sort of the development of their relationship. And so it's not even I don't know. They're not all that much different. They're not both hesitating. There's just, Luz is just very wary of Evan for good reason. But no they're. Even when they're not on the same page entirely, they're still on each other's team. It's not enemies to lovers.

[01:14:34.540] - Chels

It's not. So I tagged this book as Miscommunication Defense because while Evan and Luz have external conflicts to work through, their marriage could have gone more smoothly if they were honest with each other.

[01:14:45.140] - Chels

So most of the withholding is on Evan's part. He doesn't tell Luz about his title, his former fiance, or his revenge plot. And Luz thinks that Evan is keeping this from her because he doesn't value their relationship as much as she does. But when you're in Evan's point of view, you know that he is absolutely nuts for Luz. So this is not information that she has access to. So she's not sure if she can trust Evan. So how do you feel about how Herrera utilizes miscommunication?

[01:15:12.170] - Graciella

I think it works really well because from the. From Luz's introduction, she already has all these obstacles stacked against her. She has so many points of concern. She knows that Evan's holding back, but she just doesn't. Like, she can't pinpoint on what exactly. And that for that if it's the wrong thing, it means a total lack of safety. Like, it's a really big risk for her. She's risking so much by going in on Evan's plan for them. And so Luz is set up upon the opening chapter, upon her character introduction, to have so many reasons to be nervous around this entire deal, this entire arrangement. And so I think, yeah, I can't imagine their story going any other way.

[01:16:02.780] - Beth

Yeah, I liked what you said, that Luz is the one where every time Evan takes two steps forward, she takes one step back. But she has way more to lose. So it's very understandable why she's reacting like that.

[01:16:14.550] - Graciella

I also would be very nervous.

[01:16:17.910] - Beth

And I think she does have a particular frustration with people withholding information because they might. They think they might know better or think she's not capable.

[01:16:28.500] - Graciella

This is the conflict with her trust. Like, she.

[01:16:30.750] - Beth

Exactly. And I love. I love when authors do that, where it's like, my exact pain is the thing that you're doing. So. But to be fair to Evan, it's not like I would be forthcoming about the fact that, like, my former fiance married my father.

[01:16:45.240] - Graciella

Yeah.

[01:16:47.390] - Beth

Obviously he knows he should have said that, but it's like, how do you even bring that up? So I'm always understanding when characters are like, this is a hard conversation, and I don't know how to approach it.

[01:16:57.200] - Graciella

It's like, funny story.

[01:17:02.560] - Emma

By the way, you know how my dad seems, like, kind of weird and mean? Like, here's another weird, mean thing he did. Yeah, I think Herrera pulled off, like, having external and internal conflict. I was maybe surprised to see Chels framed this as miscommunication defense because I think I really thought of this book as having mostly external conflict and because it's like, the miscommunication really is so understandable. It almost doesn't read like miscommunication. Every assumption that someone is making about each other, you're like, if you are buying into the point of view that you're given, it's believable. And it's like, I think of my miscommunication defense is when people say, just have a conversation. I don't think I would say that to either of these characters, because there's such a good reason why Evan is not telling Luz things, even though there's also such a good reason why Luz is suspicious of him not telling her things. Evan's plan is predicated. He hasn't told his siblings about his plan, who he's very close with. Like, his plan is predicated on a surprise. It's predicated on kind of blowing up his life. So it makes sense that he wouldn't tell her these things early in their relationship.

[01:18:10.100] - Emma

But I also think there's such. There's such a good reason why, like, Luz is not trusting him. And I love that it's like, he's not trying to manipulate her. Like, like I mentioned before, where even the marriage of convenience, he. She has a good reason to marry him as well. It's not a manipulation. He's not. He is hiding things from her, but he's making sure she's also going to get something out of it. So it's like the internal conflict is driven by external realities. And one moment I loved where I think you really have to buy in. I love when characters in their POVs are wrong about something because I think so often authors aren't bold enough to have a character make a wrong assumption or for the reader or for it not to be explained by something else. So there's this moment where Evan arrives at the Mexican delegation party with his sister and it's when Luz thinks he finds out that he's an Earl and she thinks his sister is his wife. So she's like, oh my God, this man has been hitting on me, trying to make me his mistress. And like we've kissed at this point, he's married, he's an Earl.

[01:19:06.270] - Emma

Like he's lied about one thing, so she assumed he's lied about this other thing. And she thinks he'd probably just come here to rub it in my face. And like that part like broke my heart because it's like nothing Evan has done up until this point. Like I always went back and read, I was like, did Evan like leave her cruelly at that point? Like, did he say something quippy that like made her think like mistrust it? And it's like, no, she's just mistrusting because he, well he like he reveals that he's an earl and so he's lied about something. But it's like she just has like this mistrust of understandably of like white men and like around her. Like why would she trust him? And so like nothing has, nothing Evan has done would indicate that he would want to be cruel to her at this point. He's been teasing, but not cruel. And I think this like miscommunication we're seeing is like Lou's like working to dovetail her worldview that is based on her entire life up until this point with the evidence that she's been given. And because they have this like kind of insta love that's combined with a business negotiation, she's always worried about being like a self serving connection for Evan on his end.

[01:20:03.620] - Emma

So it makes more sense for her to like rely on her past worldview than the evidence that Evan is giving her. And so I think, I just, I think it works so well. And I love that it's like Luz is wrong about this. But also it's like the most understandable assumption she is making. But also Evan would not do that to her. And we know that as readers, but we have to Watch her figure it out.

[01:20:26.070] - Chels

I love a romantic gesture and the one that stood out to me in a Caribbean Heiress in Paris is when Luz gives Evan a poetry book where she translated some of the poems originally written in Spanish to English in the margins so that he could read them. The one that he reads in the book, the English translated title is Song of Autumn in Springtime. It's by Rubén Dario, and it's so achingly romantic. It's more revealing than what Luz will even kind of admit in her head at this point, that she yearns for Evan and that this isn't just business for her. So Evan in the book kind of has bigger gestures, like the scene where he creates an entire beachfront romance scene for Luz. But to me, this is the moment that I was just like, oh, my God. I think about this one a lot. This was my favorite. So what do you agree? If not, I would love to hear kind of, like, what stood out to you. What was your big moment?

[01:21:21.020] - Graciella

I agree that this is peak show of affection from Luz, but for Evan, my personal favorite is this one particular line that he tells her in private, where it's towards the end, and he tells Luz that he wants to travel to Santo Domingo and, quote, pilgrimage there in gratitude for the gift it's given him. And she calls him sacrilegious. And it's. It's one of the most romantic pieces of dialog I've ever read. And I just. I'm such a sucker for professions of love that are also very religious in nature, that utilize religious imagery. But I also just, like, much prefer these moments, like the sharing of the book and these. These moments of talking with one another because they just. They feel so much more intimate. But also, this particular line shows that Evan has, like, grown to appreciate love and honor Luz's heritage. Like you said, it began as him calling her very fiery and being very fascinated by that element of her. But he grows to respect it and honor it very deeply in a way that is really important. It's not like he started off as sort of romanticizing this part of her identity and then growing to ignore it.

[01:22:40.320] - Graciella

He still acknowledges it very heavily. It just shifts to be more respectful. And I just. I think about that line literally all the time. It's highlighted in my copy. It's so good. I love it so much.

[01:22:52.250] - Emma

I do love the poetry scene because this is one of my moves. If I've ever dated you, I've given you a book of poetry very early on. I do this very early on. It's like a swing big. So I just endorse this as a romantic move. I just love it. But I was, like, left a string of straight men who have Frank O'Hara lunch poems. That's the one I always give people. I love giving a poetry book with annotations. I think it's so romantic. But I loved the specificity of Herrera's references. This is not the only reference to Caribbean culture. The one that I remember is when Evan's like, oh, you like Strauss? Because she likes the song. And she's like, this is not Strauss. I think it's a Cuban. I think she's like, do you believe that Caribbean people can write waltzes? And he's like, yeah, like, tell me more. It's so cute. But I love that how earnestly Evan is interested in learning about these, like, Caribbean references that Luz, I think, so often like, treats like a confrontation to begin with. She's like, the Strauss example where she. She's expecting him to fight with her.

[01:23:55.540] - Emma

She's like, he's gonna. He's gonna argue with me and say that it's Strauss. And it's like, I know it's not Strauss, but I think it's very sexy that the poem she translates for him is one about a woman from a man's point of view, because it's almost like she's providing him the language, and he reads the book right after his oh, no, I love my wife moment. So it's like he says, oh, no, I love my wife. He opens the book, and then he reads this poem, and it's like she has provided him with the language he hasn't had up until this point for his feelings about her. And then the excerpt in the book, one of the lines is, she gnawed at the very heart of me. That's what she strove to do. And so also, Herrera is picking a line that is a man's perspective on a woman's action. So it matches these, like, layers of Evan being the one that reads it, but Luz being the one to give it and translate it. And so it's like. So it's so perfect for this couple that that's. The moment when he reads it is perfect.

[01:24:45.420] - Emma

The line that he reads is perfect because it connects them both. It's not again, it's. It's Luz. The gesture is what's important for Luz, but the words are what's important for Evan. And it just works so well. And so the poem is quite long, but the paragraph that she picked to include, I thought was really smart.

[01:25:03.360] - Beth

I like what you're saying, because I feel like it's almost universal with romantic couples, where it's like, you draw on this universal romantic world, but then you kind of create your own language from it, and that's kind of like pulling from poetry or just the things you like. And just as you're building the relationship, you kind of develop this kind of couple language. I did really like the poetry book as well. And the poem that he reads. I like the quietness of that gesture, but I feel like it pays off a couple of times. I think Herrera incorporates other literary sources quite well, and I have been known to complain in the past at how people reference Jane Austen in books, that Luz references poets as those who have influenced her. And then that's something she wants to share with Evan so he can know her on a deeper level. So it's like that poem. So it's like we get the. He gets the book, and then he brings it with him to, like, when he creates his big romantic gesture, like, on the beach or, like, with the beach scene. So she opens up the book, and he, like, points out the title, like, you foolish man to him.

[01:26:07.100] - Beth

And that's by Sor Juana Inez de la Cruz. So a poet from the 1600s. So they're kind of, like, in this light mood. And then Luz says, referring to this poet, she wrote this more than 200 years ago. She was a rebel, and her opinions on the place of women in society were radical. So then she reads the poem out loud to him. She translates it from Spanish to English. And then Evan says, "I can't imagine a woman being brave enough to write that and not get pummeled from every direction." To which she responds, "one becomes quite bruised from merely concurring with what she espoused. So I don't know, I just really like this scene and the mixing of romance and levity and seriousness and the literature that influences Luz and how she's sharing it with Evan. So, yeah, I think Herrera pulled it all together quite quite well actually adding to characterization instead of just being like, I've read Pride and Prejudice.

[01:27:09.660] - Graciella

I also just really enjoy how important language is to this couple, beyond the poetry book and beyond them being able to communicate properly with each other. But also, there are these really sweet moments that I always love with intercultural relationships, where they teach each other, like, terms from their native language. And I love the scenes where, like, Luz is teaching Evan these Spanish terms and he's repeating them back to her because he wants to speak every language that she speaks. It's so. It's so sweet and so warm and I'm such a sucker.

[01:27:43.430] - Emma

That is also a very, like, English woman Scottish man trope. Like, that happens so often. Well, yeah. Very heavy handed, like, nicknames in Scottish. And so it was nice having it be more specific to this couple. Like, I think the word, like, there's certain words that come up in Scottish English romances all the time. And it's like you read this in a book, like you don't know. You don't know these words. They're not part of the author's organic language. And so obviously Herrera being able to speak Spanish, the words that they're choosing for each other feels so much more specific. And it doesn't feel like a copy of a copy of a copy, which you can just sort of count on one hand the words that a Scottish hero is going to teach the heroine. And also if a Scottish hero is teaching the heroine Sassenach. Stop it. Done.

[01:28:31.720] - Emma

Outlander owns Sassenach. You can. You can't stop with Sassenach.

[01:28:37.720] - Graciella

But also what offsets that is that Luz is also Scottish. Like, she's. She's mixed. Like they're both of Scottish heritage. And the way that they navigate that is pretty different because he was obvious. Like, she was raised so far removed from it, like, physically, but that's still a part of her. So I think that's what helps deviate away from that tropiness of like, trying to tokenize the Scottish guys that they're both Scottish and they have differing relationships with Scottish culture on that front.

[01:29:07.850] - Emma

Yeah, when he recognizes her name, he's like, Alanna.

[01:29:11.230] - Graciella

He immediately identifies it.

[01:29:12.610] - Emma

Oh, like, I see. I see part of me in you. And that, like, increases the intrigue.

[01:29:18.050] - Graciella

Yeah, they have that cultural connection, but then where they deviate is where they. They get really curious about each other. Really cool.

[01:29:24.670] - Chels

So when people talk about the past, they always say, can you see my hand gestures?

[01:29:32.030] - Graciella

Olden times.

[01:29:33.710] - Emma

Back then.

[01:29:34.290] - Chels

Yeah, back then, olden times. They always say weird things like, women weren't allowed to work and women didn't have jobs. And that's just not true. So historically, it's upper class white women who didn't have jobs in certain periods of time. And while Luz Alana has familial wealth, she's not one of these Victorian heiresses that is grasping at a connection to the aristorcracy. Like, she wants to build her legacy through commerce. She has other plans.

[01:30:00.200] - Chels

So something that I love is that Herrera pulls focus to overlooked labor. Like, she said in an interview with Tea and Strumpets podcast that the majority of liquor salespeople in the 19th century were women in the Dominican Republic, which is where she got her inspiration for Luz. Herrera also puts mention of shebeens in a Caribbean heiress in Paris. The shebeens in Scotland were unlicensed drinking houses that were usually run by women, and they'd have, like, a significant overlap with brothels. So it's kind of, like, doubly stigmatized in that way. So Evan's positive mention of shebeens is one of those cues that Luz has that he will be a good partner for, like, business partner for her.

[01:30:40.400] - Chels

So I'd love to talk here about how Luz's work impacts the story. Are your thoughts on women's labor in historicals in general, whatever your thoughts are on this?

[01:30:51.260] - Graciella

One thing that I really enjoyed off the bat with the opening chapter to this book, but also the opening chapter for this entire trilogy of Las Leonas, Herrera has introduced us to a trio of women who have drastically different fields of interest and profession. So Luz has this rum business. She's with this rum heiress, and she's trying to expand on that business. And then Manuela is an artist, and she's a painter, and she's very passionate about the arts. And Aurora is a doctor. Her life's work is in medicine and, like, giving medical care to those who are without access. And she. She cares a lot about that. And they have these really different callings in life and have these really different upbringings, but they're like sisters. Like, they have this really intense bond, and they don't judge women for having, like, different paths or anything. They don't judge each other for coming from, like, different points of privilege. And I really enjoy that, and I really enjoy seeing how these different career paths are explored differently, because I've also. I've read An Island Princess Starts a Scandal, which is Manuela's book, and seeing how she navigates the art world of Paris in this exact same time period, but with a specific focus that returns to secret sapphic artwork of the time period.

[01:32:15.960] - Graciella

It's really interesting, and I appreciate the level of passion that all of these women have for these careers that all have really different but related obstacles put in place for them.

[01:32:28.920] - Emma

I think this is another example of Herrera really grounding her work. I'm thinking about the refrain of women don't work and I think the hot girl hobby, which we've talked about extensively, is like a response to that. Like, we have hot girl hobbies of, like, wealthy women taking on things or even women who are not that wealthy. But one of the tenets of my hot girl hobby theory is that at the end of the book, the wealth is not coming from the hobby. It's like, even if this woman is working for the beginning of the book, she will marry someone who has independent wealth. And it's like, that is never a thing for Luz. Like, Luz is never Evan's. Evan's wealth or position is not going to be the thing that's sustaining her. She needs the rum business to make money. And I think that's important. And I think that grounds the book in a way that, like, I think we have this compulsion, we wanted this interest in seeing women's work. And I think the hot girl hobby is a manifestation of that. But people, like, it's like they don't trust the women's work to make them money, or they know that the women's work will not make them enough money to live in the houses that they want to set them in to have them in the ton that they want to have them in.

[01:33:33.310] - Emma

And so it's like, okay, if I'm going to depict women's work, it also has to have this independent wealth from the man with a title or some sort of windfall that comes. Like, there's like a surprise inheritance at the end. With Luz, it's like we trust that the business is going to sustain this family because we see her with this business acumen so often. And I like what Graciella said about the women as a set at the beginning. This book does feel like the first book in a series. Like, and sometimes that is a detriment to books. We have so much setup. But I think the relationships between the women are so organic that it doesn't suffer from it. But I liked that the level of independent wealth was so. Was so wide amongst the women. Like, we see Manu sort of like spending recklessly, which I think will, I think, in her book sort of bites her in the ass maybe, is maybe what Graciela was saying.

[01:34:21.170] - Graciella

Like, it bites her in the ass, but it also explains why she's going crazy.

[01:34:26.150] - Emma

This pre marriage mania of spending money in Paris. But she spends money a lot more than Luz. And Luz knows that Manu has this ability that she doesn't. And so we see this breadth of independent wealth. And so it's like Luz knows That Manu is independently wealthy and has this access to the worth gowns. She's sort of doting on her friends and spending a lot of money. But Luz is also wealthy. But Luz's wealth is different. And she has access to things like that her workers don't have. Like, trips to Paris. But also Luz's trips to Paris are predicated on her expanding her business to make sure that people have salaries. And so all these people are relying on her. And also we get these hints that Manu's wealth is not really independent. Like, that her wealth is predicated on kowtowing to someone who has the money. And so Luz is, like, trying to escape that she wants to have her wealth will be attached to a job, but will afford her independence that we know Manu is sort of struggling with. And I was trying to think of other books where the heroine just works and it's, like, integral to her life.

[01:35:30.690] - Emma

And it's not inherently a crisis or a desperation because Luz has always worked. And I think a lot of working heroines that I've read are dependent on leisure in a way that lose. Or other people's leisure in a way that loses. Not like I'm thinking like sex workers or domestic laborers. If a heroine has a job at the beginning of the book and. Or is that, like, in crisis, Like, I was thinking, like Lydia from A Gentleman Undone. And I think those. Or that the heroine is, like, in a crisis and needs to start up a business. Like, sometimes that's the plot of a book. But I feel like these crises often are about not being able to get a reference since again, we see that level of domestic labor. But that's kind of. Luz's predicament is like, not being able to get connections, but on a smaller scale. Like, Luz has to make these connections and. Or it affects her whole company and her workers. And so it just. It's interesting to see this, like, bourgeois, like, a sort of level of wealth, because I feel like that's what we don't see a lot.

[01:36:19.850] - Emma

Like, we see sort of women who are relegated to the, like, domestic labor area, and then they will eventually be pulled out of it. That's sort of an often plot. Or women who don't work at all, but like, this sort of. She has to keep working, but also her work is not. Is not keeping her at, like, other people's leisure. It's just an interesting space to be in.

[01:36:38.810] - Beth

Right. I like what you're saying about. It's not just about her. It's also she has workers and other people who kind of depend on her for the success of the company. And I feel that's something that kind of weighs on her, understandably. In the beginning of the book in text, she kind of has these conflicting feelings where she's like, so proud of her family's legacy and then at the same time is very overwhelmed at the idea of trying to uphold this legacy. So from the book, "On more than one occasion, Luz wondered if she was capable of stewarding their legacy into the future. A dream that had begun almost fifty years ago with Luz Alana's mother, Clarise, and her grandfather, Roberto Benzan. A distillery owned and operated not by the children of Spanish colonials, but by a black family where every pair of hands that worked to make the rum, from cutting the sugar cane to preparing the spirits for shipment—was entitled to a share of the profits. Caña Brava from its inception had been an experiment in what industry without exploitation could be. And it had thrived for decades."

[01:37:43.940] - Beth

So actually now just reading that again, that feels like a lot for a person to take on. You don't want to be the one to drop the ball on your family's legacy and kind of like this new way of doing work, essentially. I know we still are doing labor exploitation, but it obviously was a little bit worse.

[01:38:00.940] - Graciella

And also she just became the new guardian for her little sister. She is not just like this business owner, but she's a new parent. Yeah, it's a lot out of nowhere.

[01:38:11.990] - Beth

Yeah, and parent, but the thought of someone just handing me a kid, like, that would be a lot.

[01:38:16.850] - Graciella

And like your baby sister too, who you already like, love and are devoted to and who's so much younger than.

[01:38:22.530] - Beth

Well, it changes the relationship. It's like you're her sister, but now you're like her mom. So.

[01:38:28.060] - Graciella

And you can see that like in also, that's also part of the opening, like introduction. The women are kind of like her and, and Manuela are like bickering over because Manuela wants to spoil Clarita with like these dresses and wants to take her out on the town. And Clarita's like, Luz, please let me. And then Luz is like, no, I kind of have to be your mom right now. We need to be responsible. And that's like the added layer of like all of the stakes is that like on top of all of this and all of that, she's also like a new mom to her babies sister.

[01:38:59.600] - Beth

Yeah, I like that. I'm all for upping the stakes, and I also don't know where to dump this thought, but I really, really like that Herrera made Luz a rum heiress. Maybe one day we'll do an episode on how food is incorporated into worldbuilding. But like Chels said in the prompt, Herrera pulls the focus to overlooked labor. And we don't have the names of the people who invented rum, but for sure, enslaved people in the 1660s, on sugarcane plantations, created and refined the process of making rum. So this is a pretty par for the course for labor and food history in the United States, where it's like, lots of our foods were probably created by enslaved people, but we just don't know about it. So I just. I really like that attention to food and history and just, like, all of these things coming together. I feel like I keep saying that a lot with Herrera. I'm like, she's pulling all these different threads together.

[01:39:52.000] - Graciella

It's just too good that. But no, that was also what I really loved, because rum is so important to Latin Caribbean culture. I think there's overlap with the Dominican Republic on this, but for Puerto Rico, we have this holiday drink for Christmas time, New Year's time, where it's like, rum and coconut milk. And it's like, rum is the Caribbean thing, right. It's so important. It's just like one of those, food references plantains. Like, it's just like, one of those things where it's like, yeah, that's. That's for us.

[01:40:29.950] - Beth

Yeah. I feel like food is uniquely positioned to do a lot of legwork in world building, where it's like, you often have a personal or familiar or a cultural connection to that thing. So it's not just me dumping a fact into my book, but it's also how that person feels about that thing.

[01:40:49.440] - Graciella

It's layered in its relevance.

[01:40:51.260] - Beth

Yes, yes, yes.

[01:40:52.140] - Emma

It's telling. In so many regencies, we get, like, languishing descriptions of Blancmange.

[01:40:57.430] - Chels

Like, I still don't know what that is, and I refuse to learn.

[01:41:04.620] - Emma

It's bland. That's. The people eat it when they're sick, but they're like, oh, the blancmange. We love blancmange.

[01:41:10.430] - Graciella

Ew.

[01:41:11.820] - Chels

I do know what that is. I have visual pictures in my head. I'm like, why did I say just. You can say anything on a podcast, guys.

[01:41:22.890] - Emma

Chels lying about their knowledge of blancmange to seem cooler.

[01:41:25.590] - Chels

I know. I know. I'm just like. Yeah. I don't know. I've never encountered this in my life. Have you ever seen those. Those illustrations of how people imagine things in your head? It's, like, fuzzy, fuzzy, fuzzy. The clear. Mine is, like, the clearest. It's like a photograph. Yeah. I don't know.

[01:41:44.910] - Chels

I guess kind of to wrap this up, because all I kept thinking about, too, is, like, when we were kind of talking about all of these little details is. Yeah. I think the first thing that it's so funny to say about something that's, like, a book that is so much fun like this, but there's a level of intentionality that I think is it's not clear if you're just reading the book, but if you're thinking about it because it's so readable. It's so you can easily just go through it, but if you're thinking about these references, these things. It makes it such a fun read. And

[01:42:17.320] - Chels

I guess kind of now we're kind of, like, getting to the end of the episode. Did y'all have any final thoughts things that you wanted to say, grievances to air, not against the book, but maybe against me. I don't know.

[01:42:33.400] - Emma

Has read the audiobook. I don't know if I listen to, like, half of it.

[01:42:36.180] - Chels

The audiobook is very good.

[01:42:37.360] - Emma

I just wanted.

[01:42:37.950] - Beth

I heard that it was good.

[01:42:38.610] - Emma

To endorse the audiobook. I looked at the. So the narrator, her name is Nneka Okoye. I think she's a Nigerian. Her ability to do accents. I can't do an accent to save my life. And, I mean, I'm impressed with all audiobook narrators, but so frequently in the book, you have Luz sort of code switching, like, between, like, how she speaks to her friends and how she speaks to Evan. Like, she's able to do that. And also, like, the way that she does, like, Evan doing the Spanish words with his Scottish accent. I was out. I was, like. I was blown away by her ability to do different voices for the characters in, like, a. Not her natural accent. I like the fact that I could tell, like, Manu and Lou's apart, and it's. But she's also putting on an accent, and it just was outstanding. So I just want to really endorse the audiobook. And I'm not like a big audiobook listener. I picked it up just for like, just to go through some chapters. And I was like, I want to go back and listen to the whole book on the audiobook because she's so talented.

[01:43:32.720] - Graciella

I need to. I've read it twice, but only the first time was as an ebook, like as an arc, and then the second time when I got my physical copy. But now I need to do another reread with the audiobook. That's good to know.

[01:43:43.890] - Emma

I want to seek out her work in other books. I don't know if she's done. I just looked up her name right before the podcast because I was like, she's so amazing.

[01:43:52.160] - Chels

I had that exact same reaction because I'm actually like, I'm a bit fussy with audiobooks. I get easily distracted. And so if someone's not. If I don't find someone engaging, then it's just very easy for me to lose my place. And I was just kind of like, who is this? So I'd love to hear more from her. But yeah, the audiobook's amazing. Thank you so much again, Graciela, for joining us. This was so much fun. I had a great time and you are amazing to talk to on a podcast. You should have your own podcast. Thank you so much.

[01:44:26.980] - Graciella

I loved being here.

[01:44:28.410] - Beth

Come back anytime.

[01:44:29.610] - Chels

Yeah.

[01:44:30.080] - Graciella

Oh, my gosh, yes. Let me just, like, continue my journey with Beverly Jenkins, so then you can call me back.

[01:44:35.420] - Chels

Oh, that would be amazing.

[01:44:36.320] - Emma

I know what I want to invite Graciela back for. I want her to be on our Puck and Prejudice episode.

[01:44:42.520] - Beth

Oh, my God.

[01:44:43.170] - Graciella

Yes. Oh, my God. Oh, you know what's so crazy? Okay, context. For anyone who doesn't now, there's a book that's going to be coming out, I don't know when, in a couple months, I think fall called Puck and Prejudice. And it's like, about a hockey player who accidentally finds himself time traveled to the Regency era. And I think from the description it implies that he's going to meet Jane Austen. But it seems like it will also be a Jane Austen-esque romance that follows this skeleton of Pride and Prejudice. And I made a post about it because of course I did. And I was accused of being an example of the death of literature and why media literacy has, like, been blown to smithereens and like, people that went super mega viral. And people were like, angry. But what was so great about that? Is that it? Being viral meant that the publisher saw it and they emailed me, and they were like, we would love to send you an arc because you seem so excited. And I was like, thank God this.

[01:45:46.220] - Emma

Is one of the only newly published books that we're chomping at the bit for because we're ready to defend it. We're like, people have been such sad sacks about it.

[01:45:53.910] - Graciella

Oh, yeah. Like, in my video, I was like, I need it like I need air. But ultimately, I was neutral on it. Existing people, genuinely I took so many screenshots and made a little digital collage of how many people were so personally offended. They were like, jane Austen would hate this. How dare you be so disrespectful to her? And it was like, well, first of all, Jane Austen also loved a good bit. Jane Austen loved jokes, so I don't know about that. Also, I feel like if she does care from beyond the grave, she has bigger fish to fry. Have you seen the number of Pride and Prejudice remixes and everything? There are so many. What are they called? Variations.

[01:46:36.550] - Beth

Retelling. I think it depends on, like, what the author is going for.

[01:46:39.830] - Graciella

But yeah, yeah, but, like, there are. So, like, I read one where, like, Darcy was a werewolf hunter, and then, like, I read a different one where it was like, Darcy actually was a vampire, but also he had a twin.

[01:46:53.510] - Beth

I love a good twin reveal.

[01:46:55.210] - Graciella

And it was. It was. It's called the Vampires Darcy. It's not good. And it definitely needs a sequel. But I read it, and I was like. And it was like, these. These vampire Darcy twins with different personalities.

[01:47:12.160] - Emma

I think it sounded fun. Like, I don't know, like, and so.

[01:47:15.440] - Graciella

Often did it sounds very silly. I want to know why him being a hockey player was relevant. So many people were so angry. They were like, why is he a hockey player? And then you Google the author and it's like, well, she only writes hockey romances, so I don't know, maybe that has something to do with it. And then people were like, what does him being a hockey player have to do with anything? And I was like, what does anyone having any job have to do with anything? Right?

[01:47:39.420] - Emma

What does anything have to do with anything? I just like the idea of the time travel being someone who's, like, not obsessed with Jane Austen. Like, it's just a guy.

[01:47:46.010] - Graciella

Yeah, he's just some guy and he plays hockey well.

[01:47:49.890] - Chels

I don't understand the vitriol like dude, did a time traveling hockey player kill their dad? Like what is hockey puck killed my parents? What is this coming from? But yeah, if you want to come back for that, we would love that.

[01:48:05.370] - Graciella

Oh absolutely. Yes, yes, yes.

[01:48:10.130] - Chels

Well, thank you so much for listening to Reformed Rakes. We're so glad Graciela could join us today. And you can find her on TikTok under the username grapiedeltaco and Instagram under grapeies_bookstagram. If you'd like bonus content, you can subscribe to our patreon at patreon.com/reformedrakes. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram for show updates. The username for both is reformedrakes. Or email us at reformedrakes@gmail.com we love to hear from our listeners. Please rate and review us on Apple and Spotify. It helps a lot. Thank you again and we'll see you next time.